Keeping up with the latest Brexit News

Which option would you prefer?

  • Leave with no deal

    Votes: 122 74.4%
  • Leave with the WA without the backstop

    Votes: 42 25.6%

  • Total voters
    164
  • Poll closed .

Ruperts slippers

Distinguished Member
I did not strictly define sovereignty in my post nor allude to any other definition so how you can make such a blanket statement is beyond me.
Instead of using the word "conflict" try thinking of the difficulties in aligning large complex structures such as the legal framework of the EU and UK as a challenge to be met only by those worthy.
Obviously those with separatist mentalities will simplify that to "we can't be bothered" or "it is up to others to appease us!"
You have no need to inform me of the "frosty relationship" I am old enough to have witnessed much of it, mostly presented by the idiot tabloids who have held a persistent campaign against EU/EC membership since it's advent, of course those same media were in the pay of those with most to gain from a divide and conquer strategy worked upon the less informed masses.
PS sorry forgot about the "special relationship" we have with the US as announced by Mr Trump about the same time Ford announced the massive job losses in the UK, lot of good that relationship is.
You inferred sovereignty would be lost re UK, then gained via the EU. Exercise highest authority over a state or jurisdiction, the alpha and omega. Neither party understands how to untangle the complex innate power-justice systems which make up civic society of the other. Utterly pointless. Peace and trading is as good as it ever be.
I think the media just represent the two sides of the same coin, a tabloid merism.

I think the relationship between the US and UK started long before trump. The US was originally a arm of the UK, until they broke free via the war of independence. The two parties have been allies ever since.
 

mdbarber

Active Member
Personally I do not believe that it is a good thing to align things like the legal framework of different countries. What is right for one country may not be right for another. I'm not saying country A is better than country B, just different. This "one size fits all" mentality is something we should look to avoid.
interesting, you don't believe all people deserve the same legislation applying to them? on what basis does one deserve less under law than another?
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
interesting, you don't believe all people deserve the same legislation applying to them? on what basis does one deserve less under law than another?
Surely that is their choice?. If country 'X' wants a minmum wage of $15 an hour why should that be imposed on Country 'Y" if the people of that country do not want it
 

mdbarber

Active Member
You inferred sovereignty would be lost re UK, then gained via the EU. Exercise highest authority over a state or jurisdiction, the alpha and omega. Neither party understands how to untangle the complex innate power-justice systems which make up civic society of the other. Utterly pointless. Peace and trading is as good as it ever be.
I think the media just represent the two sides of the same coin, a tabloid merism.

I think the relationship between the US and UK started long before trump. The US was originally a arm of the UK, until they broke free via the war of independence. The two parties have been allies ever since.
Using "definition" and "inferred" about the same sentence does not bode well for any debate, neither are accurate about my statement.
You imho, and many others are looking at this all wrong, it is not about giving away sovereignty, it is about adapting it to suit a much bigger picture , just the same way any true partnership should work.
Utilising individual skills to mesh and build a stronger unit from multiple parts.
Those who still believe in the empirical idea of the UK are simply deluded fools who will have us divided further by the power mongers into medieval tribes before too long.
I mean seriously, who honestly believes in their heart that the UK standing alone can have any real sort of bargaining power on the world stage when compared to the UK with the EU as partners.
 

Iain42

Well-known Member
interesting, you don't believe all people deserve the same legislation applying to them? on what basis does one deserve less under law than another?
For all kinds of cultural reasons. Different countries and cultures have different values, which I find perfectly acceptable.

A simple (hopefully) not controversial example. In Germany I could drive on certain autobahns that have no speed limit, in France it is likely to be 130kph, in UK likely to be 70mph. All different.
 

mdbarber

Active Member
Surely that is their choice?. If country 'X' wants a minmum wage of $15 an hour why should that be imposed on Country 'Y" if the people of that country do not want it
That is exactly how the EU currently works, the EU doesn't set our minimum wage?? but the idea of A minimum wage to allow a moderate level of comfort without exploitation, who would not really deserve that?
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
That is exactly how the EU currently works, the EU doesn't set our minimum wage?? but the idea of A minimum wage to allow a moderate level of comfort without exploitation, who would not really deserve that?
but many countries in the EU do not have minimum wage legislation - so why should it be imposed on them by someone else?
 

mdbarber

Active Member
but many countries in the EU do not have minimum wage legislation - so why should it be imposed on them by someone else?
it is not "many" it is a few, and that simply justifies what i have said, the EU is not a dictatorship but a collective working towards ideals, no one ever said there was a magic wand where those would be instantly achieved, that is no reason to abandon ideals.
So what exactly was your point? arguing against a imposition which does not exist?
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
it is not "many" it is a few, and that simply justifies what i have said, the EU is not a dictatorship but a collective working towards ideals, no one ever said there was a magic wand where those would be instantly achieved, that is no reason to abandon ideals.
So what exactly was your point? arguing against a imposition which does not exist?

So you want to impose your view of life on everyone else regardless of what they want - we used to call that dictatorship..
 

mdbarber

Active Member
So you want to impose your view of life on everyone else regardless of what they want - we used to call that dictatorship..
Did you really have to start making things up?
None of my statements so far have said i want to impose anything on anyone, if fact the first statement i made was quite the opposite, stating that any attempt to do so here was wasted effort.
 

Greg Hook

Moderator & Reviewer
Did you really have to start making things up?
None of my statements so far have said i want to impose anything on anyone, if fact the first statement i made was quite the opposite, stating that any attempt to do so here was wasted effort.
I'd not bother, we all know what you mean. Don't feed them.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Did you really have to start making things up?
None of my statements so far have said i want to impose anything on anyone, if fact the first statement i made was quite the opposite, stating that any attempt to do so here was wasted effort.

Your first statement was "you don't believe all people deserve the same legislation applying to them? on what basis does one deserve less under law than another?" - so by that we can assume that all countries should have the same legislation. And the only way you will get that is by force.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
stating that any attempt to do so here was wasted effort.
Why bother then?

This forum has been in place for more than 3 years, yet suddenly we are overwhelmed by people telling us what to do or think. If only you'd been here before the vote to guide us, the vote might have been for Remain... :devil:
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Why bother then?

This forum has been in place for more than 3 years, yet suddenly we are overwhelmed by people telling us what to do or think. If only you'd been here before the vote to guide us, the vote might have been for Remain... :devil:
I must be imagining your post of March 26th 2019 announcing the newly opened Brexit forum. And imagining that this thread has only been going for 1 year 10.5 months (Dec 22nd 2017). And is it the same forum anyway when it keeps on changing it's name?
I know pedantic has been 'banned' for spelling and grammar but what about for 'misinformation'...:)
 

EarthRod

Distinguished Member
I must be imagining your post of March 26th 2019 announcing the newly opened Brexit forum. And imagining that this thread has only been going for 1 year 10.5 months (Dec 22nd 2017). And is it the same forum anyway when it keeps on changing it's name?
I know pedantic has been 'banned' for spelling and grammar but what about for 'misinformation'...:)
Maybe you're forgetting the many threads in P&E forum started long before the 2016 referendum.

There was one called 'Referendum on Britain's membership to the European Union, How would you vote?' started in November 2012 and another called 'EU referendum discussion' started in May 2013.

You only have to look through the shop window :)
 

doug56hl

Distinguished Member
Maybe you're forgetting the many threads in P&E forum started long before the 2016 referendum.

There was one called 'Referendum on Britain's membership to the European Union, How would you vote?' started in November 2012 and another called 'EU referendum discussion' started in May 2013.

You only have to look through the shop window :)
The P&E forum is not this forum. That is not the forum you are looking for....;)
IG is modding so many forums he seems to forget which forum hat he has on at any one time.
A veritable Marx (brothers, not Karl) hat swapping routine must be necessary :)
 
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Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The P&E forum is not this forum. That is not the forum you are looking for....;)
A lot of threads were just moved across when the new forum was created.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
I must be imagining your post of March 26th 2019 announcing the newly opened Brexit forum.
Which was populated with all the Brexit threads from across the forums, brought together in one place. The oldest one being from 2012, although the topic didn't take off until 2016. Apologies if I wasn't precise enough for you. "We have been dicussing this subject in the Lifestyles Forum (The various Politics forums if you prefer) for more than 3 years" Is that better?

I made a mistake: This forum has been in place for more than 3 years

should have been: These forums... no misinformation intended, happy?
 
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raduv1

Distinguished Member

gavinhanly

Well-known Member
Does it alter my point? that we have been inundated with a sudden influx of new and existing members?
It's come up time and time again that people have started taking a greater interest in politics since the Brexit vote. So an influx of members - both those of us who were members but had never posted in the politics forum (like myself, and it seems mdbarber) and brand new members - is inevitable. And surely something to be encouraged - not pushed away? I know the emoji indicated your're not being entirely serious but it comes across as a bit of a "you're not welcome here" comment to me, tbh
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
He also won't " Make it so " with Labour under JC leadership . Corbyn must be a Borg I guess ;)
The whole House of Commons is Borg :D

I take it you're in on Picard? I'm not actually a massive Trekkie, but it's really piqued my interest. Looks pretty good.
 

raduv1

Distinguished Member
The whole House of Commons is Borg :D

I take it you're in on Picard? I'm not actually a massive Trekkie, but it's really piqued my interest. Looks pretty good.
Anything Trek mate and another Jean Luc outing is more than welcome for myself , funnily enough there has been a pretty penny in tax relief in the making of it . Even Genes vision of Trek did not see that future .
 

IronGiant

Moderator
It's come up time and time again that people have started taking a greater interest in politics since the Brexit vote. So an influx of members - both those of us who were members but had never posted in the politics forum (like myself, and it seems mdbarber) and brand new members - is inevitable. And surely something to be encouraged - not pushed away? I know the emoji indicated your're not being entirely serious but it comes across as a bit of a "you're not welcome here" comment to me, tbh
You are all very welcome, but comments like " it's a waste of time posting in here" are not a great way to introduce oneself. 😍
 

raduv1

Distinguished Member
You are all very welcome, but comments like " it's a waste of time posting in here" are not a great way to introduce oneself. 😍
Sympathy vote ?
 

raduv1

Distinguished Member
Why bother then?

This forum has been in place for more than 3 years, yet suddenly we are overwhelmed by people telling us what to do or think. If only you'd been here before the vote to guide us, the vote might have been for Remain... :devil:
It's squeaky bum time for many that now believe they have a say because they did bugger all in voting at the reforendum or the GE at that time . LTTP has a very shouty voice that has to be listened to , in desperation . Tis what it is.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
There was an element of seriousness in my post. A lot of Leavers in here were very much sitting on the fence before the referendum. Had there been more voices for remain back then, putting forward sound and logical reasons to remain, perhaps they might have been swayed to stay. It's a bit late to join in now saying you people are completely mad why did you vote leave? All that is going to do is get peoples backs up. (not aimed at you gavin :))
 

EarthRod

Distinguished Member
There was an element of seriousness in my post. A lot of Leavers in here were very much sitting on the fence before the referendum. Had there been more voices for remain back then, putting forward sound and logical reasons to remain, perhaps they might have been swayed to stay. It's a bit late to join in now saying you people are completely mad why did you vote leave? All that is going to do is get peoples backs up. (not aimed at you gavin :))
Jeremy follows the same sitting on the fence scenario as a lot of the Leavers before the referendum. The difference being he continues to sit on the fence even though he maintains he would renegotiate a completely different deal with the EU if he becomes the Prime Minister.

Not an impossibility, but unlikely.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Jeremy follows the same sitting on the fence scenario as a lot of the Leavers before the referendum. The difference being he continues to sit on the fence even though he maintains he would renegotiate a completely different deal with the EU if he becomes the Prime Minister.

Not an impossibility, but unlikely.
Most unlikely he'll be PM yes, and even less likely he'll do any renegotiating.

The EU are more than happy with the deal they've got out of Johnson. I believe it'd be a case of you take that, or you stay. In fact to anyone that tries to go back to them.
 
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