Keeping up with the latest Brexit News

Which option would you prefer?

  • Leave with no deal

    Votes: 112 75.7%
  • Leave with the WA without the backstop

    Votes: 36 24.3%

  • Total voters
    148
  • This poll will close: .

Dbcoup

Distinguished Member

Panavision

Active Member


Britain will only be granted a Brexit extension by the EU if it agrees to hold a general election or a second referendum, it emerged on Wednesday night.


David Sassoli, the president of the European Parliament, set out the condition during a debate in Brussels.
Yep, we need to sort it out once and for all. I agree with the president - stop giving us extensions unless there's going to be a finality to all this.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
The Tory manifesto first and foremost promised a deal. Checkout my link and you will see it throughout the document.
And the document also states no deal is better than a bad deal. Yep they want a deal, yep they also say that if a good deal can't be done then it is no deal. Checkout the link.
But even then, the Tories only secured 42% of the vote so they lack a majority for no deal. It might be the enduring legal default but the people haven't agreed to it which is why Parliament, acting on their behalf, won't allow it.
And even then, the Tories did win the GE. And the referendum was to leave. "Leave." We haven't.
 

Dbcoup

Distinguished Member
Yep, we need to sort it out once and for all. I agree with the president - stop giving us extensions unless there's going to be a finality to all this.
Why does the EU even mention a 2nd ref? Election, I can understand, 2nd ref? Nah, the EU are famous for voting and re-voting until they get the answer they want.

Shame there are so many spineless individuals in positions of power and able to disgrace our Country on the international stage.
 

chopples

Well-known Member
And the document also states no deal is better than a bad deal. Yep they want a deal, yep they also say that if a good deal can't be done then it is no deal. Checkout the link.
And even then, the Tories did win the GE. And the referendum was to leave. "Leave." We haven't.
I think it’s worth pointing out that The Torys failed to get a majority with this manifesto which is part of the reason we are where we are with regards to the deadlock in the HOC.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
I think it’s worth pointing out that The Torys failed to get a majority with this manifesto which is part of the reason we are where we are with regards to the deadlock in the HOC.
Also worth pointing out there will probably be a GE soon. It looks like the next manifesto will be taking a harder line.

BBC News - Will 'Super Saturday' be a decisive Brexit moment?

"Essentially the dramatic language is designed not just to irritate their opponents, but also to make it clear to their negotiating opponents that any Brexit offer from the UK, if there is a Tory majority after the election, is likely to be a harder not softer one and the EU will face a government less willing to compromise, not more."
 

Ruperts slippers

Distinguished Member
Democracy is in a perilous position now in the UK, whereby 45 years of EU membership has corrupted our political class. Our Parliamentarians like our judges have mimicked and evolved themselves to a convenient continental philosophy of a 'top down' approach. The historical philosophy on the continent ensures bureaucrats and commissioners know better than the hoi polloi and decision making is invested in them to make the right decision for the plebs - hence why Brits look across the Channel and see the EU as undemocratic. That has never been the case in British democracy where a 'bottom up' approach places servants into power; yet the remain faction have defied the democratic constitution and have turned their backs on centuries of history. Stifling and stymieing the democratic process in order to grind Brexit to a halt by telling us after three and a half years that we're all better "informed" now with their Owrellian Newspeak propaganda that is designed to soften the electorate up and make us change our minds.

We have seen previous referendums in the EU overturned by the overlords in Brussels, countries like Ireland, Denmark and France were made to vote again because they initially voted against something the technocrats were in favour of. Britain, and its democracy is now at risk of repeating this undemocratic folly because it's what our better-ers demand. By going down this route and on this principle alone the UK was right to vote leave.
And you must be living on a different planet as you don't understand parliament has no sovereignty higher than a popular mandate.
I agree whole heartedly with you, they do not understand what sovereignty is, politics, they really, really don't. Broad and narrow definitions to try twist the actual result to fit their warped allegiances to this autocratic organisation.

We don't and never have had top down dictates' from above. Top-down’ means that the initiatives don’t come from citizens, but from organisations. Some argue that this equals creating something that isn’t there: if there’s no demand, why supply it?
 

chopples

Well-known Member
Also worth pointing out there will probably be a GE soon. It looks like the next manifesto will be taking a harder line.

BBC News - Will 'Super Saturday' be a decisive Brexit moment?

"Essentially the dramatic language is designed not just to irritate their opponents, but also to make it clear to their negotiating opponents that any Brexit offer from the UK, if there is a Tory majority after the election, is likely to be a harder not softer one and the EU will face a government less willing to compromise, not more."
Yep, and If the Torys secure a majority with a no Deal ticket based manifesto then I would totally agree that they have a mandate to enact such a policy
 

PatMrex

Standard Member
The Tory manifesto first and foremost promised a deal. Checkout my link and you will see it throughout the document. But even then, the Tories only secured 42% of the vote so they lack a majority for no deal. It might be the enduring legal default but the people haven't agreed to it which is why Parliament, acting on their behalf, won't allow it.
It never "promised" it endeavoured to get a deal. Taking no deal off the table is exactly what remainers want - in order to place the UK at the mercy of the EU and to make the prospect of remaining look more favourable to any draconian deal the EU offers. It would only be motivated to offer the worst possible deal in order to make the UK remain. This is what Soubry and her gang of saboteurs have been playing at for the last 3 years. However, by your logic the Tories lacked the vote to get a deal as they only secured 42% of the vote. This is of course, utter rubbish. In fact, May got a deal and it was rejected three times by parliament. Cameron also clearly stated that if a deal can't be achieved after 2 years then it would be onto WTO terms. Both sides have failed to reach a deal and the date of departure keeps getting put back. The natural consequence of law legislates the UK must leave if no palatable deal is achieved as per Article 50.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Are we quoting polls today? Comres:

Screenshot_20191010-103323_Twitter.jpg
 

psikey

Well-known Member
Are we quoting polls today? Comres:

View attachment 1205345
Latest on BBC Poll Tracker


e, Pollster and Sample Date Pollster Sample
ConservativesCON

LabourLAB

Lib DemsLD

Brexit PartyBRX

GreenGRN

SNPSNP

UKIPUKIP

Plaid CymruPC

The Independent Group for ChangeTIGfC
6 October 2019, ComRes and Sample size: 2,006 6 Oct 2019 ComRes 2,006 332719133411No data available-
4 October 2019, BMG and Sample size: 1,514 4 Oct 2019 BMG 1,514 3126201173010
4 October 2019, Opinium and Sample size: 2,006 4 Oct 2019 Opinium 2,006 3823151245100
1 October 2019, YouGov and Sample size: 1,623 1 Oct 2019 YouGov 1,623 3421231253010
27 September 2019, YouGov and Sample size: 1,623 27 Sep 2019 YouGov 1,623 3322211354010
27 September 2019, Opinium and Sample size: 2,007 27 Sep 2019 Opinium 2,007 362420112501
 

Iain42

Well-known Member
Genuine question, what would you personally do if Article 50 was revoked? Or if we end up Remaining through another referendum?

Same question applies to all Leaver's really.
A bit late responding, but just catching up.

First of all, if I was a betting man, my money would be on Article 50 being revoked. In that case, I have a life to live, and I will get on with enjoying that.

On a political level, in my opinion if this happens it shows our democratic process has broken. I completely understand what is meant by representative democracy, but for this our representatives passed the decision to us, and are now failing to implement that decision. That is indubitable. In future European elections I will be likely to vote for the party most likely to disrupt the waste of space that is The European Parliament as much as possible. Domestically is more difficult. I detest the nanny state, which all political parties seem to love. For example I read stuff like this today 'Ban snacking on public transport'. Fudge off! Give me the information, but don't decide for me.

On a personal level, I'll make my protest by boycotting goods from certain countries when I can. For example French beer is dreadful, so easily avoided, but they do make some good wines. However so do New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and Argentina, so I will spend my money on them. I'll become more diligent about this kind of thing.
 

klaxhu

Well-known Member
Fudge off! Give me the information, but don't decide for me.

On a personal level, I'll make my protest by boycotting goods from certain countries when I can. For example French beer is dreadful, so easily avoided, but they do make some good wines. However so do New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and Argentina, so I will spend my money on them. I'll become more diligent about this kind of thing.
When generations are so fat that they are costing the NHS billions, they can and should decide for you if you do not know when to stop eating. If we were in america and you covered your medical expenses directly, then sure.

Expect more of this after Brexit when people are going to realise there is actually going to be less money for the NHS. You can kinda see the direction already: instead of people talking about that £350m being used on the NHS we are talking about how we can reduce obesity even more. And I am happy that we do: I see oversized children daily taking the bus 1-2 stops, while munching on chips after school. When you got to that level, you have to start forbidding stuff. In time, don't be surprised if your doctor will select who he will see depending on their condition: ie if it's self-inflicted, you will be waaay down on his priority list.
 

psikey

Well-known Member
In time, don't be surprised if your doctor will select who he will see depending on their condition: ie if it's self-inflicted, you will be waaay down on his priority list.
That's fine so long as fat people, drug takers, smokers, high risk sportsmen can all opt out of paying a large chunk of National Insurance to put towards private insurance.

What next, scanning everyone at birth to ensure hereditary defects are not covered. What about all the "Mental Health" suffers these days self harming. Ban fixing that on NHS too.

Not forgetting irresponsible adults that have multiple kids when their jobs can't even support themselves. Get them & family off NHS too? It was their choice (or lack of responsibility) to have kids.

What country are you from ?

My mate at work has spent his life doing downhill extreme biking and been in hospital just about every year having broke most things in his body multiple times. Me, who is slightly obese, has managed to get to his 50's with 1 visit to hospital when I was four and have no medical conditions. I do cycle 20 mile to/from work, walk at lunch break when not raining and my resting heart rate is under 50 with normal blood pressure.

Have three other people I know that are perfect body weight but in and out of hospital/counselling due to drink problems, two were even told they would be dead in 12 months unless they stopped (fortunately they did stop).

Its easy to pick out fat people with it being visually obvious unlike many other, often self-inflicted issues people have.

By all means tax food based of its excessive fat/sugar/salt content similar to pricing people off fags (and in Scotland booze to some extent).

I notice in KFC since the sugar tax on drinks they have posters up saying over 75% now switched to Max Pepsi. That's the way to do it (I've not touched sugar in drinks for at least 20 years).
 
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sebbykin

Distinguished Member
I thought Brexit would cure obesity as there would be no food :confused:
 

jouster

Moderator
totally agree re nanny state....I eat healthily and look after myself, as do my family...don't dictate what the masses can do for the few who decide their children or their own health isn't important

I think it's criminal that so much is paid for on the NHS now....but I also think its a farce that people who have chosen to smoke for 20 years can have their treatment free on the NHS when prescription bills get higher and higher each year....you make your bed you lie in it.

I agree it won't change but that's life...I just hate having change forced on me because of the percentage of people who just don't care
 

techquest

Well-known Member
Also agree on the nanny state issue.

As for the burden on the NHS, the next one is the decision to treat on line gaming addiction in children as a recognised illness, again something that can be controlled by their parents. Skype sessions though for those outside of London, where the treatment centre has been set up, doesn't seem like a sound medical decision to me.
 

klaxhu

Well-known Member
totally agree re nanny state....I eat healthily and look after myself, as do my family...don't dictate what the masses can do for the few who decide their children or their own health isn't important

I think it's criminal that so much is paid for on the NHS now....but I also think its a farce that people who have chosen to smoke for 20 years can have their treatment free on the NHS when prescription bills get higher and higher each year....you make your bed you lie in it.

I agree it won't change but that's life...I just hate having change forced on me because of the percentage of people who just don't care
Look at it this way: we pay taxes and contribute towards healthcare and we should have a say to how the money is used (at a high level - which happens with your vote to a party and their manifesto's).
I am pro better management and a decision like this shows better management of funds rather than just sprawling it on anything people stuff in them from food, cigarettes or alcohol and then wonder why their knees hurt all the time and are filling up the hospitals. The reality is that money does not grow on trees and we won't magically have more, we just have to manage what we have better.
 

psikey

Well-known Member
Look at it this way: we pay taxes and contribute towards healthcare
There's actually a lot of people who don't pay taxes or pay so little tax it wouldn't even cover a single fix in hospital but they still get supported their whole lives. You seem to be missing the whole point of the NHS.

Never works banning, need to educate and use taxation to hit peoples pockets and the profits of the companies producing unhealth stuff.

Slap a 50p premium on all sugared drinks and you'll soon find more people switching to zero cal equivalents. Same principle on salt/fat/sugar in processed foods.

Anyway, gone way off topic so won't be posting further on this.
 
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doug56hl

Distinguished Member
totally agree re nanny state....I eat healthily and look after myself, as do my family...don't dictate what the masses can do for the few who decide their children or their own health isn't important

I think it's criminal that so much is paid for on the NHS now....but I also think its a farce that people who have chosen to smoke for 20 years can have their treatment free on the NHS when prescription bills get higher and higher each year....you make your bed you lie in it.

I agree it won't change but that's life...I just hate having change forced on me because of the percentage of people who just don't care
People who have chosen to smoke for 20 years have paid for their treatment (if required, although only 1 in 3 get cancer as a result) many times over in the tax paid on cigarettes. Cigarette Tax/VAT £12 billion, NHS spend £3-6 billion. Also by dieing prematurely they save the exchequer from having to spend on their pension payments if they lived until their 80s, or the other health costs which older people generate.
Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury?
 

jouster

Moderator
Look at it this way: we pay taxes and contribute towards healthcare and we should have a say to how the money is used (at a high level - which happens with your vote to a party and their manifesto's).
I am pro better management and a decision like this shows better management of funds rather than just sprawling it on anything people stuff in them from food, cigarettes or alcohol and then wonder why their knees hurt all the time and are filling up the hospitals. The reality is that money does not grow on trees and we won't magically have more, we just have to manage what we have better.
Totally agree but giving it to those who have no wish to better themselves is a waste of time and money IMHO
 

jouster

Moderator
People who have chosen to smoke for 20 years have paid for their treatment (if required, although only 1 in 3 get cancer as a result) many times over in the tax paid on cigarettes. Cigarette Tax/VAT £12 billion, NHS spend £3-6 billion. Also by dieing prematurely they save the exchequer from having to spend on their pension payments if they lived until their 80s, or the other health costs which older people generate.
Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury?
regardless of how much the NHS receives from taxation on tobacco...I still don't agree with the NHS paying towards people who want to quit...I have friends who quit without gum or patches...and without it costing anyone (regardless of where the funds come from).

I appreciate that if everyone stopped smoking tomorrow, the NHS would basically implode wit the loss of funds from taxation (similar to electric cars and road tax) but very few people were forced into smoking...and there will always be those that choose to spend more on a single packet of 20 than they would on a nice homecooked meal for a hungry family of four....they make their choice so should deal with it... again, that's just my personal opinion on it and respect anyone else and theirs.

....apologies for the digression
 

Dbcoup

Distinguished Member
People who have chosen to smoke for 20 years have paid for their treatment (if required, although only 1 in 3 get cancer as a result) many times over in the tax paid on cigarettes. Cigarette Tax/VAT £12 billion, NHS spend £3-6 billion. Also by dieing prematurely they save the exchequer from having to spend on their pension payments if they lived until their 80s, or the other health costs which older people generate.
Does smoking cost as much as it makes for the Treasury?
What a crock of sh*t. Have you even considered the knock on effects from passive smoking that will still go on for decades to come.

Did those innocent people working in pubs and restaurant or public transport or entertainment ask for lung cancer and a premature death?

Does the Joe chuffing away pay for everyone else too?
 

Dbcoup

Distinguished Member
Look at it this way: we pay taxes and contribute towards healthcare and we should have a say to how the money is used (at a high level - which happens with your vote to a party and their manifesto's).
I think one thing you could take from this thread, is a Manifesto isn't worth the paper it's written on.
 

psikey

Well-known Member
regardless of how much the NHS receives from taxation on tobacco...I still don't agree with the NHS paying towards people who want to quit...I have friends who quit without gum or patches...and without it costing anyone (regardless of where the funds come from).

I appreciate that if everyone stopped smoking tomorrow, the NHS would basically implode wit the loss of funds from taxation (similar to electric cars and road tax) but very few people were forced into smoking...and there will always be those that choose to spend more on a single packet of 20 than they would on a nice homecooked meal for a hungry family of four....they make their choice so should deal with it... again, that's just my personal opinion on it and respect anyone else and theirs.

....apologies for the digression
There are many things the NHS does that I'd question should be funded privately

To name three:
  • Fixing cosmetic surgery fudge ups (i.e. breast implant fiasco thanks to French company)
  • Gender realignment treatments & surgery
  • Fertility treatment (enough people on planet already and loads of kids awaiting good homes in care system)
They should refocus back to repairing injuries/diseases etc.

PS. I do appreciate reconstructive cosmetic surgery is needed after cancer, major trauma etc.
 

jouster

Moderator
What a crock of sh*t. Have you even considered the knock on effects from passive smoking that will still go on for decades to come.

Did those innocent people working in pubs and restaurant or public transport or entertainment ask for lung cancer and a premature death?

Does the Joe chuffing away pay for everyone else too?
There are many things the NHS does that I'd question should be funded privately

To name three:
  • Fixing cosmetic surgery fudge ups (recent breast implant fiasco thanks to French company)
  • Gender realignment treatments & surgery
  • Fertility treatment (enough people on planet already and loads awaiting good homes in care system)
They should refocus back to repairing injuries/diseases etc.
I have to disagree on a few of those I think...but I appreciate your points....giving a single mum with 8 kids fertility treatment is ridiculous...but a couple who can't fall pregnant without assistance shouldn't be penalized for that

Totally agree on correcting cosmetic anything though..same with gastric bands
 

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