JVC X3 - any differences to the RS40 ?

emporer

Banned
Hi guys, i've been quite fancying an X3 for a while now, i've noticed a seller on that auction site selling the RS40 models which I presume are exactly the same as the X3? If they can provide me with any kind of warranty then i'll probably get one as its a third cheaper than an X3.

So, are there any differences?

cheers
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Apart from that you'll probably get your fingers burnt if it's the ad I think, plus JVC UK will not honour any warranty on it (see the other thread). "If somethings too good to be true..."

The RS40 just has a gold trim rather than being all black, the specs are the same otherwise. Typically the RS line is sold through JVC's' professional division.
 

Boris Blank

Active Member
Interestingly, from JVC's own website at JVC UK » Support › FAQ › General ;

QUOTE
7. Is it a good idea to purchase JVC products overseas to use in the United Kingdom?

Consumer experience would seem to point to the purchase of JVC or, in fact, any other brand of consumer electronic product outside the United Kingdom for use within the UK being, at best, risky and possibly expensive. In many cases consumers have told us stories relating to overseas dealerships who have promised that the products they are selling "...are the latest in the range", "...could not be bought cheaper in the UK" and that they have "International Warranties". Very often this has not been the case and the consumer has been left with a product that may not even meet warranty requirements in the UK should a fault occur. Although a free market system does operate in many countries, it does not apply everywhere and we at JVC (UK) would strongly recommend that you do not purchase such items overseas unless you are absolutely sure of what you are getting and that you know at what price that particular model retails in the U.K. To obtain service under warranty in the UK for products purchased abroad it is essential that you obtain and retain a proper, dated, purchase receipt together with an official JVC printed warranty certificate. A dealer's stamp on the Instruction Book or receipt claiming to offer a Guarantee is of no value in the UK. You would have to return to the country of purchase to claim on such a guarantee. Additionally JVC (UK) cannot alter the terms of the warranty on products purchased abroad.


8. Can I get JVC products purchased abroad repaired under guarantee in the U.K.?

This may be possible, depending on the country from which the unit was purchased. Please forward a copy of the purchase receipt and guarantee certificate to JVC Consumer Support at the address above who will advise what is possible.
UNQUOTE


Whilst its been stated (IIRC) that JVC UK will not undertake warranty repairs for projectors purchased outside UK, I'd be surprised if they enforced this in practice. Under European Law, the manufacturer is responsible for rectifying defects for all purchases made in Europe albeit most likely via the dealer. Most big brand companies would be keen to promote and maintain Customer Support for goods bought abroad (how much electronic stuff do we buy when on holiday, they certainly don't want to lose that custom!?). I had a Sony projector purchased from Germany that was repaired by Sony UK (Marata if I recall) quite happily and with absolutely no question. I'd be very surprised if JVC didn't honor warranties of any items bought in Europe in another European country (outside Europe would definately be risky though).

Sending a projector back to (say) Germany rather than to somewhere in the UK should everything go horribly wrong is no more hassle although bound to be more costly. Like I said, I'd be surprised if JVC said NO to any warranty claim but might be worth contacting JVC directly and asking the question, the reply could make for some fun if they replied no given what their website states above.

This "guarantee certificate" that they mention seems to be a key issue (at least as far as JVC are concerned), is this something in the box or handed over by the dealer?

EDIT - Just found this quote on another website "Under EU warranty regulations manufacturers are now obliged to repair products in the UK if they've been purchased from a country within the EU and the same model is also officially available in the UK". Hmm, so if JVC are saying they won't repair foreign bought projectors looks like they could well be in breach of EU Law right enough!
 
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emporer

Banned
Thanks guys, its a very tricky predicament really, if i'm forking out a good bit of hard earned then i'd want a warranty, i've asked the supplier if they can provide warranty but have yet to get a reply, although not suprised being the weekend. They do offer collection from their premises and can take payment via credit card which would give me some confidence in who I am dealing with, i'd inspect the unit before hand aswell and probably even fire it up to confirm everything is working etc. Ideally i'd like to just purchase an X3 from an 'ordinary' AV dealer but the RS40 that these guys have (they have 3) is £2500 and is a huge saving on the X3 rrp and I can't disregard that really for what is exactly the same unit. I'm going to email JVC and get clarification on the warranty situation.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
EDIT - Just found this quote on another website "Under EU warranty regulations manufacturers are now obliged to repair products in the UK if they've been purchased from a country within the EU and the same model is also officially available in the UK". Hmm, so if JVC are saying they won't repair foreign bought projectors looks like they could well be in breach of EU Law right enough!
I wonder if they'd argue that the RS40 isn't available in the UK as I thought we only get the HD or now 'X' models here? I'm pretty sure GaryB (who works for JVC UK) said that it would have to be returned to the country it was bought from, if I find the post I'll link to it.

EDIT: He was talking about it here:

http://www.avforums.com/forums/13531415-post606.html
 
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gt03raf

Standard Member
i watch with interest...i've come across the same people you're talking about as i'm interested in the 50 which as you say is a 3rd cheaper than the x7 from a uk dealer.
the ad states it comes with a two year warranty and i live in the location that they say goods can be collected from.
i am assuming that they are importing these from the us and then selling in the uk but that really doesnt bother me if...the warranty stands.
real dilemma...rs50 (thx certified) for the same price as an x3 from a genuine uk dealer!
i may ring them on monday to talk to someone real.
 

emporer

Banned
Please give them a ring and get more info, I got a reply from them stating a two year warranty but am a bit dubious because how would they honour it if problems arose? they couldn't get Jvc UK to fix any issues as i'm sure they would just refuse if the units are US sourced.

Let me know how you get on please.
 

GaryB

Well-known Member
A few things to think about:

AFAIK, these are being imported without paying import duty and possibly VAT. If so, anyone who buys one may be liable to pay them if HMRC gets awkward. Anyone who buys one should ask for proof that import duty and VAT have been paid.

Also AFAIK, these are US versions which are different models to those sold in the EU. Whilst these offer the same performance as the EU version, they differ in terms of approvals. They won't have CE or WEEE marking - both legal requirements for sale within the EU. It also excludes them from the warranty rules.

If you look at the seller's recent feedback, none of it is for these models - probably because they don't actually have them. They are also advertising the RS60 (X9). This model hasn't even been manufactured yet, so they definitely don't have those.

I assume they won't supply the free IR emitter and 2 pairs of glasses that the standard version include?

Like all things in life, you pays your money and you takes your choice, but be aware that you're not comparing apples with apples here.
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
I don't know whether they are the same folks (in MK) but looking at their ad there are no glasses with them and they make a big play about there is NO vat included and nor will it be charged.

Surely this is illegal as you have to be registered for VAT once you hit a certain turnover figure which they must have reached by now.

Is there any comeback from HM customs if they have not charged you vat.

Also no mention of warranty in their ad so where is the 2 yrs coming from.
 

iamsludge

Active Member
if they're not charging vat and not passing this onto the vat man then they won't exist as that business in 12 months time - what of your warranty possibilities then? saving a grand (less the half a grand for the emitter and glasses) seems expensive to me. I'd only pay a grand for an iffy import and no 3d kit.
 

B1gbeard

Active Member
One way of looking at it is why people feel the need to do this.

A well respected US etailer (who I don't believe are well known for being especially cheap) is selling the RS40 for £2800 and the RS50 for £5000 (£1600 cheaper than the UK price). I don't think these come with glasses but personally I'd love to be able to buy the X3 for around 2999 and deal with the glasses issue as and when I wanted. There are probably plenty of people also who want the latest JVC projector and are not to bothered about 3D.

Looking around this morning I've also noticed that the UK etailers I've visited are stating that the free glasses are on a "while stocks last" disclaimer. So when these free glasses are gone the cost of the X3 goes up to 4k and the X7 7k? Or will they always come with the glasses?

I know its called rip-off Britain for a reason but even so.

I also believe the WEEE directive puts the responsibility of disposing of the PJ on the manufacturer. Would there be a case that disposing of the RS40 is no different to disposing of an X3?
 
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JonStatt

Well-known Member
There is some margin in the UK retailer pricing, so the prices between eBay and some dealers may be smaller than you think and you get the emitter and 2 pairs of glasses for the moment which are not cheap items. However, in terms of supply and demand, I would guess most dealers could maintain somewhere near retail and get away with it because of the shortage.

The price will go up in January by 2.5% due to VAT. Whether JVC will then increase the margin to dealers accordingly (so the increase is effectively hidden) remains to be seen.

The funny thing is I see people over here saying they like the gold on the RS series. And there are Americans seeing pictures of X3/7s and saying they prefer the look of those! Personally I think most people couldn't care at all as long as they can get their hands on one of these projectors in the first place!
 

Boris Blank

Active Member
There is absolutely no proof these guys are dodgy in any way shape or form, they have been on EBay for 9 years so are unlikely to disappear overnight. Looking at their feedback they have sold some expensive kit including projectors so either they are expert smugglers hell bent of flooding the market with grey goods or else they are legit. No way could they do that amount of business on EBay without having attracted the attention of the Tax-man or HMRC - they are even registered as a Business user which means that EBay have a legal obligation to report their transactions to IR for tax purposes so lets not cry wolf just yet.

Also, just because they are not VAT registered does not mean they aren't paying VAT on the goods they have for sale, it just means that their earnings does not exceed a specific amount (low-price, low profit?). No-where does it say that VAT hasn't been paid, rather they are saying that the price we see is the price we pay, there is no VAT on top to be added. (I'd guess they were sourcing these from within the EU but thats just a guess based on what I'm seeing in soem of the EBay feedback).

There is some negative speculation on this thread without a thread of evidence to support it, lets wait until we hear from the horse's mouth first about warranty and where they were sourced etc before letting loose the hounds. Hopefully Emporer will let us know in due course (noticed one has sold already, just two to go!).

And NO, I don't have any connection with these guys in any way. Having imported projectors in the past with no issues at all, I'm just trying to show that its not necessarily a bad experience nor are some of the dire-warnings that are constantly portrayed necessarily accurate.
 
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Paul D

Well-known Member
I have strong views on differences in prices between the UK and other countries.
I also think "some" manufactures think they have some right to (illegally) collude with UK dealers to maintain minimum pricing.
Some manufacturers are skating on thin ice trying to control the market.

Dealers can bleat all day about offering demo facilities and nice cups of tea until the cows come home.
I like others don't need demo facilities or a cup of tea. I'm happy to travel to an official demo/show if it means i save a grand.
So there should be room in the market for boths types of sellers.(e-tailers and bricks and mortar)
I understand the problem of people using demo facility's and then buying elsewhere. But if there wasn't such a price rift, this wouldn't be a problem.
Some argue if all demoing dealers went bust what would we do?
Well we would all have to travel to shows/demos, or arrange demo models to be sent for "in house" demo/trails. (i would love to have 3-4 projectors together at once for a home trial!)

Manufactures like to control the market, and until they stop this practise i'm happy to source certain items elsewhere.
We are not here to support dealers(profits), they are here to support us.

Free trade should be exactly that.
If they don't have a viable business model, they don't have a business.
I have to travel (time and effort?) to give quotes for free (like demo facilities?), and if i'm not impressive enough or cheap enough, i don't get the business.
I would love it if somebody controlled the prices of my business competitors.
I could make so much more money knowing our prices where being kept artificially high.
It's illegal for a reason...

There is history about UK price differences.
The UK car market suffered at the hands of Euro imports.
I bought the wife a Renault Scenic sourced direct from France.
UK price £17,500. Priced paid to a Sheffield based importer....£12,500 :eek:
Car came with the normal Renault three year warranty, and also came with more standard kit.

Some Jean makers didn't like it when Tesco started selling their stuff.
What difference would it make to the Jean maker "who" sold their stuff?
They would make the same profit margin per item.
They argued it devalued their product by selling it too cheap.
Resellers/dealers also argued they couldn't compete.
Well you don't need demo facilities or make tea to sell Jeans, so it's all bull.

Now don't get me wrong, i don't directly blame UK dealers.
They have to make profit to stay in business, like all businesses.
Some dealers would love to lower their prices to compete.
But they know the backlash from the manufacturer......suddenly having a shortage of stock??? :rolleyes:

It would help if companies like JVC didn't operate as independent territories.
This splitting of the markets allows companies to charge different rates to different countries. (UK = £££s)
This stifles cross country trade, and doesn't allow for a global market.
At least in Europe this isn't allowed, and JVC UK will have a hard time refusing to deal with any euro sourced model.
BTW, just re-branding/naming an essentially same model doesn't exclude it from being recognised as not being sold in that region.

Finally...
People need to do some research before buying from any non UK dealer.
First thing, comparing UK to US prices doesn't tell the whole story.
The Americans don't pay tax at source, but do still have to pay it locally.
This varies state to state, so goods are not as cheap as it first appears.
Any legal import will have to include duty and VAT.

Regarding non EU warranty claims.
You have to judge the likely hood of needing attention.
A memory stick is unlikely to breakdown. A projector more so.
It is not that expensive to ship something back to it's source country.
But to make it worth while, you really need to be making quite a saving.

Ironically, lately i have found my time is usually better spent sorting out a deal with a UK dealer.
There are bargains to be found, it just takes time and effort...(oh and if you get a good UK deal DON'T come on here telling everybody....or the dealer might suddenly find it hard getting stock!)
 
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GaryB

Well-known Member
Also, just because they are not VAT registered does not mean they aren't paying VAT on the goods they have for sale, it just means that their earnings does not exceed a specific amount (low-price, low profit?).
The VAT threshold is based on turnover, not profit. If a business turns over more than £70k per year, then they must be registered for VAT.
 
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Boris Blank

Active Member
The VAT threshold is based on turnover, not profit. If a business turns over more than £70k per year, then they must be registered for VAT.
Yep, my mistake, I'd profit on the brain for some reason.

Paul D. certainly raises good points which very much mirror my own thinking on this issue.

As for the RS40 in question, having contacted the seller, he states that they are indeed sourced from the USA but that he would deal direct with any problems/repairs that may arise during the 2 year warranty period. Given the sellers feedback history, I for one am not in the least put off by this (although would be happy to pay slighty more for a true UK model, say 10% or so). I would however wish to see the pj first hand and demo it first "just in case" but I would be pretty sure I'd be walking out the door with it shortly thereafter.

Two months too early for me, if they are still available at the end of January fingers crossed I'll be getting one.
 
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JonStatt

Well-known Member
At least in Europe this isn't allowed, and JVC UK will have a hard time refusing to deal with any euro sourced model.
I am not sure that is true. JVC Europe has an obligation to honour the warranty of a product purchased via its distribution chain (for example in France) even if the owner is now living in the UK. However I don't believe JVC UK has any responsibility whatsoever. So if something went wrong, you would have to get it to a JVC European authorised repair facility. Not impossible but inconvenient.

I am not sure the exact reason for the separation of JVC UK and JVC EUrope has individual entities. I suspect there is a history there. But I also understand that JVC UK pushes as many projectors through the books as JVC Europe does for the whole of Europe.

The application of EU laws is also optional on a per country basis. For example, in the rest of Europe, warranties must be 2 years by law (except for consumable parts such as a bulb). However, the UK is still able to provide a more limited 1 year warranty. Of course JVC do offer better warranty terms anyway.
 
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iamsludge

Active Member
Let's be straight, the one grand cheaper without the 3d kit amounts to a 17% discount (£500 cheaper).

The alternative is to buy from a reputable UK HDWorld dealer and get a 3 year warranty (yes three years not two). I'd rather pay the £500 for the 3 years warranty.
 

emporer

Banned
Let's be straight, the one grand cheaper without the 3d kit amounts to a 17% discount (£500 cheaper).

The alternative is to buy from a reputable UK HDWorld dealer and get a 3 year warranty (yes three years not two). I'd rather pay the £500 for the 3 years warranty.
Its actually 1100 quid cheaper, 2 pairs of glasses plus emitter would be 330 quid ish from the same seller, in my book that represents a saving of nearly 800 quid, yes its only a 2 year warranty and not 3 years, but paying an extra 800 quid for a years warranty is crazy in my book.
 

GaryB

Well-known Member
Let's be straight, the one grand cheaper without the 3d kit amounts to a 17% discount (£500 cheaper).
Which of course is very similar to the VAT amount.

If he were charging VAT, the prices would be similar. You also have to take into account the fact that the resale value of a non UK model may be slightly lower when you come to sell it.
 

JonStatt

Well-known Member
Before people figure out this discount as being 800 quid, have you called your nearest dealer and actually asked them for a price?

This same discussion came up a year ago, and the reality then was that most dealers would discount if you asked them. Not 500 pounds perhaps, but something to make you think long and hard about buying from eBay and the warranty issues that entails.
 

emporer

Banned
Before people figure out this discount as being 800 quid, have you called your nearest dealer and actually asked them for a price?

This same discussion came up a year ago, and the reality then was that most dealers would discount if you asked them. Not 500 pounds perhaps, but something to make you think long and hard about buying from eBay and the warranty issues that entails.
Well put, but really JVC shouldnt put the price so high in the first place!
 

emporer

Banned
We actually had several dealers at the previews say that they were too cheap!
The bottom line is that they are a business and profit is what they are after, the higher the rrp from Jvc no doubt means more bucks for the dealers.

I just find it a punch in the gut that we are being ripped off yet again in our part of the world, when you can get exactly the same hardware from the other side of the world, ship it here and sell it for 2/3 of our rrp and still make a profit on it then something is very wrong.

I think i'll be waiting for the other usual manufacturers to show their 3d units now, tempted as I am to buy an RS40 I just cant bring myself to support Jvc like this, as much as the product is probably very good I think they are having us all for mugs, I hope when Panasonic, Epson etc start showing us their own 3d offerings then Jvc will have to look at their pricing.
 

GaryB

Well-known Member
I just find it a punch in the gut that we are being ripped off yet again in our part of the world, when you can get exactly the same hardware from the other side of the world, ship it here and sell it for 2/3 of our rrp and still make a profit on it then something is very wrong.
There are many things is the UK that are ripoffs, but consumer electronics aren't one of them. I bought a 20" Remote Control Sony KV-2022 TV in 1982. It cost me £400. Almost 30 years later, it's possible to buy something far better for around half that price. There aren't many other things you can buy that follow those rules. An old guy I worked with many years ago said that when he delivered his first colour TV in 1969, it cost roughly the same amount as the Mini Van in which he delivered it. There's a bit of a price difference between even the cheapest car and a TV now.

As I mentioned above, to make a fair comparisons, you have to compare those apples with apples. A lot of the price comparisons of UK v imports don't allow for VAT and any duty among other things, which, importing as an individual, most people can avoid (though they shouldn't). As a company, you have no choice but to pay them. The UK has many other costs that are higher than many other countries. As an example, we currently pay over £100k a year in environmental WEEE fees alone. The (lack of) profit figures from most CE manufacturers will show it's not a particularly profitable industry.
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
... but paying an extra 800 quid for a years warranty is crazy in my book.
If you find that you do have to ship it back to whence it came for warranty issues, you might wish you had bought in the UK. ;) As someone else said you might not pay the full £800 difference you quote anyway as dealers will haggle, if not at the moment due to shortages, but I'll bet in the new year they will (or just wait until next October for them to be off loading in readyness for the 'new' model ;)).

Thinking about it though from a business POV: If we all bought from abroad but had the UK division doing the repairs, then technically the UK division would end up making a loss as they wouldn't have been 'paid' for the original units. Any parts they fit under warranty wouldn't be coming out of their margins from selling the original units, so I can see why they don't want to deal with units 'brought in' from abroad, especially if it's through channels that are avoiding paying VAT or whatever (not sure how they can even get away with this?).

On a side note, could the UK customs and excise dept send you a bill afterwards for unpaid taxes? If so then that might instantly cancel out any savings, regardless of the warranty situation.

It's all rather moot for me as I'm not buying just yet as JVC already shot themselves in the foot by making the previous models good enough to keep me happy for a good while yet. :)
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Kelvin you might be able to trade up to a 250hr HD750 for around £400-£500 in the classifieds at the moment:D
 

KelvinS1965

Distinguished Member
Kelvin you might be able to trade up to a 250hr HD750 for around £400-£500 in the classifieds at the moment:D
Yes I saw that ad Keith, but IMHO it's not really worth it as I've got the same result with an external CMS, just with the lower CR. I may as well wait until I can at least double the contrast to see a worthwhile improvement, so that means an X7 or maybe even an X9, once the next new thing comes along to hammer the used prices down. My HD350 will do sterling service as a garden projector for summer use, so I won't care how little it's worth by them. :D That's the thing; we all know (or at least we should know) that these things lose value faster than a '90s Lada, so what's hot now will be in the bargain bin next year. ;)
 

kbfern

Distinguished Member
Yes your quite right there Kelvin,I must admit I can't see why all the Hoo-Ha is really on these 3D machines as there is such a dearth of movies to watch anyway.

keep your powder dry mate and like you say save a bomb next year.:D
 

JonStatt

Well-known Member
Yes your quite right there Kelvin,I must admit I can't see why all the Hoo-Ha is really on these 3D machines as there is such a dearth of movies to watch anyway.

keep your powder dry mate and like you say save a bomb next year.:D
I have over 20 3D titles already :p
 

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