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JVC HD100, Sim 2 D80e, Sony VW200 which one is best for my living/cinema room?

SilentSniper

Active Member
Ok Guys,

It is time for me to buy my projector. Below I have tried to describe the room so that you can better understand the environment the projector will be situated in.

Room Dimensions:

5.7 meters (18.7 ft) x 4 meters (13.1 ft)

Projector Positioning:

The projector is being positioned 5 meters (16.4 ft) from the screen, just off the ceiling. The ceiling height is 8 ft, so the projector will be at approx 7.2 ft

Preferred Screen Type & Size:

I am looking for an electric screen between 95 and 100 inches. I do not know what sort of gain screen is ideal for this sort of room. I Also do not know who makes the best sCreens for my budget

Screen Budget:
My budget is around £1k or $2k US Dollars

Walls:
The ceiling is white and so is the wall to the right of the projector. The wall to the left is made up mostly of windows which will have full electric blackout blinds

The walls in front and behind the projector will be in dark, but glossy wood

Floor:
White Marble, however most the floor is covered with a large rug.

Furniture:
The room has 3 very large 3 seater sofas made of fabric, along with heavy curtains along the left wall.


Use of Projector:
I will be using the projector mostly for movies & video games.

The models which I am leaning towards are:

JVC HD100
Sony VW 200
Infocus IN83
Sim2 D80e

So which one do you think is best for this room?

THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! :thumbsup:
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
The models which I am leaning towards are:

JVC HD100
Sony VW 200
Infocus IN83
Sim2 D80e

So which one do you think is best for this room?

THANKS FOR THE HELP!!! :thumbsup:

I think you also need to consider your image priorities in addition to what may/may not work with your install requirements. On a general note a white ceiling and/or reflective material i.e wood, marble etc will have an impact on the performance of any PJ. You may wish to consider a directional screen material that can help with cross room reflection.

The PJ's you've listed fall into different price brackets and the underlying techs they use tend to produce a different "image style" in a similar way to other display types i.e. LCD v Plasma, CRT v digital. So you need to work out what is important to you then figure out which best fits your personal preference. For example -

- Is accurate colour important ?
- Are you sensitive to RBE ?
- Are you bothered by underlying issues such as shading, mis convergence ?
- Are you sensitive to LCD/LCOS motion smear ?
- Are you sensitive to the actions of a dynamic iris ?
- What types of material are most important in terms of accessing video processing performance i.e. DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, Sky, freeview etc ?
- Will you play games or watch sports material ?
- Is the physical size of the PJ a consdertaion (VW200 is very big) ?
- What level of image brightness do you prefer ?
- Do you prefer the LCOS or DLP "image style" ?
- How important are calibration features ?
- How important is fan noise ?

The answers to most of the above will vary from person to person. This means that whilst they are all very good PJ's one man's meat is another man's poison depending on personal priorities/sensitivities. Apart from the question of will it fit my room in terms of throw, install position and screen size you really need to audition the products first hand. The best PJ is the one that meets your personal image priorities, fits your budget and has issues you can best live with.

Being able to see your target PJ's is a good starting point and the guy in the link below looked at some of those you mention side by side. Again there's no way of knowing if you would come to the same conclusions hence first hand viewing at a good dealer is important and the best place to start.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1015798

AVI
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
AVI raises his usual excellent points. Essentially don't rush into buying a projector if you really do intend on getting the best image possible for your tastes and environment.

My immediate thoughts are to look to the two DLPs for a brighter image. The Sim2 being my favorite as usual, although it is a budget difference from the IF (which I think is well worth it - the quality of processing and optics is higher than the IF, giving a sharper and more detailed image).

If you aren't planning on doing anything with your white walls and floors then it would be worth considering a grey and/or high gain screen to combat light reflecting back in from the walls and ceiling/floor.
 

SilentSniper

Active Member
I think you also need to consider your image priorities in addition to what may/may not work with your install requirements. On a general note a white ceiling and/or reflective material i.e wood, marble etc will have an impact on the performance of any PJ. You may wish to consider a directional screen material that can help with cross room reflection.

The PJ's you've listed fall into different price brackets and the underlying techs they use tend to produce a different "image style" in a similar way to other display types i.e. LCD v Plasma, CRT v digital. So you need to work out what is important to you then figure out which best fits your personal preference. For example -

- Is accurate colour important ?
- Are you sensitive to RBE ?
- Are you bothered by underlying issues such as shading, mis convergence ?
- Are you sensitive to LCD/LCOS motion smear ?
- Are you sensitive to the actions of a dynamic iris ?
- What types of material are most important in terms of accessing video processing performance i.e. DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, Sky, freeview etc ?
- Will you play games or watch sports material ?
- Is the physical size of the PJ a consdertaion (VW200 is very big) ?
- What level of image brightness do you prefer ?
- Do you prefer the LCOS or DLP "image style" ?
- How important are calibration features ?
- How important is fan noise ?

The answers to most of the above will vary from person to person. This means that whilst they are all very good PJ's one man's meat is another man's poison depending on personal priorities/sensitivities. Apart from the question of will it fit my room in terms of throw, install position and screen size you really need to audition the products first hand. The best PJ is the one that meets your personal image priorities, fits your budget and has issues you can best live with.

Being able to see your target PJ's is a good starting point and the guy in the link below looked at some of those you mention side by side. Again there's no way of knowing if you would come to the same conclusions hence first hand viewing at a good dealer is important and the best place to start.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1015798

AVI

Please find my answers below. Also please keep in mind I am not fimiliar with a lot of the technical details of projectors. In London I have not been able to get demos for most these pj's so I have not had a chance to examine rainbows, motion smear, misconvergence...:

Is accurate colour important ?
Accurate colors is certainly ideal, so I suppose yes.

- Are you sensitive to RBE ?
I do not think so, but am not sure.

- Are you bothered by underlying issues such as shading, mis convergence ?
Not sure what this is

- Are you sensitive to LCD/LCOS motion smear ?
Not sure what this is.

- Are you sensitive to the actions of a dynamic iris ?
I do not think so, but have not had enough experience with pj's


- What types of material are most important in terms of accessing video processing performance i.e. DVD, Blu-ray, HD DVD, Sky, freeview etc ?
Sky HD, Hd DVD/Blu-ray, Playstation 3

- Will you play games or watch sports material ?
Play Games

- Is the physical size of the PJ a consdertaion (VW200 is very big) ?
Size is not a huge issue, but
smaller than the VW200 s preferred. If everyone said the VW200 is a must then I would accomodate its size.

- What level of image brightness do you prefer ?
Medium to High Brigtness

- Do you prefer the LCOS or DLP "image style" ?
Not sure
- How important are calibration features ?
As I will have the projector professioanlly installed I am guessing calibration is key to good results. Your thoughts?

- How important is fan noise ?
The projector will be very close to the main seating position and therefore quite is better.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Please find my answers below. Also please keep in mind I am not fimiliar with a lot of the technical details of projectors. In London I have not been able to get demos for most these pj's so I have not had a chance to examine rainbows, motion smear, misconvergence...:.


Farris

I've tried to provide some background on some of the questions from my list. If you are new to PJ's I'm sure any of the PJ's on your list will appear great. You really need to see the PJ's first hand.

LCOS Motion Smear/RBE

Sensitivity to DLP RBE and LCD/LCOS motion smear varies from person to person. The result is it's either an issue or not but no matter how much people tell you it isn't or is you need to observe the PJ's first hand to determine if it bothers you with the types of material you will typically use i.e. games, sport etc.

I'm sensitive to motion smear on the JVC and RBE on some mono DLP's. The post #83 in the link below is a good description of LCOS smear issue.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667668&page=6

RBE is caused when your brain perceives the separate colours produced by the colour wheel in mono chip DLP's. It appears as a brief fash of colour typically in areas of high contrast i.e. white on black. Not all mono chip DLP's use the same design/speed of colour wheel so it can vary by product. Also I've observed a different type of colour artefact on JVC D-ILA products where areas of high contrast develop a coloured halo (not MC). Here's an RBE simulation that provides an idea of the phenomenon - http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

LCOS MC and shading

MC or misconvergence is caused when the light produced by the R,G,B chips in a three chip PJ do not converge into a single point across the whole screen area (see crosshatch photo). This can appear as a coloured egde on objects (see same photo). It can also softens the image to varying degrees particulary with 1080 material (see face photos showing subtle softness due to some MC) or it appear as a coloured tint usually toward the edges of the screen when showing large areas of white of light colours.

Some PJ's allow adjustment in 1 pixel increments but typically this moves the problem from one part of the screen to the other. The VW200 has the ability to address this at a sub pixel level using video processing in different zones. However, according to user reports it has a negative affect on PQ and is more a marketing gimmick. Also MC can be affected by the shift and zoom position of the lens and therefore may vary depending on your specific install requirements. As a rule of thumb the more lens shift and zoom applied the greater the potential issue.

LCOS shading can produce clouds/blobs/bands or colour when looking at large areas of light colour. My Sony had green blobs that appeared in snow scenes of sky shots and my JVC had three subtle yellowish horizonal bands. This varies from unit to unit and it's important you see the unit you are buying. It may also develop or worsen on some units over time.

AVI
 

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SilentSniper

Active Member
Thanks for the help AVI!!!

I appreciate your explanations of the terms I did not understand. The problem I am facing is that I do not know where I can demo these projectors. No where in London demos the Sony W200. I can try and arrange demos for the Sim2 D80e and JVC HD100, however because I am not at all used to projectors, I probably will not even notice the things you listed belw. I am guessing it is after using pj's for a long time that a person begins to notice these sort of things. I am still at the stage where I goo oooooh.... ahhh.... 100 inch screen

Farris

I've tried to provide some background on some of the questions from my list. If you are new to PJ's I'm sure any of the PJ's on your list will appear great. You really need to see the PJ's first hand.

LCOS Motion Smear/RBE

Sensitivity to DLP RBE and LCD/LCOS motion smear varies from person to person. The result is it's either an issue or not but no matter how much people tell you it isn't or is you need to observe the PJ's first hand to determine if it bothers you with the types of material you will typically use i.e. games, sport etc.

I'm sensitive to motion smear on the JVC and RBE on some mono DLP's. The post #83 in the link below is a good description of LCOS smear issue.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=667668&page=6

RBE is caused when your brain perceives the separate colours produced by the colour wheel in mono chip DLP's. It appears as a brief fash of colour typically in areas of high contrast i.e. white on black. Not all mono chip DLP's use the same design/speed of colour wheel so it can vary by product. Also I've observed a different type of colour artefact on JVC D-ILA products where areas of high contrast develop a coloured halo (not MC). Here's an RBE simulation that provides an idea of the phenomenon - http://www.dietforum.net/balagee/projected/rainbow.html

LCOS MC and shading

MC or misconvergence is caused when the light produced by the R,G,B chips in a three chip PJ do not converge into a single point across the whole screen area (see crosshatch photo). This can also soften the image to varying degrees particulary with 1080 material (see face photos showing subtle softness due to some MC) or can appear as a coloured tint usually toward the edges of the screen when showing large areas of white of light colours.

Some PJ's allow adjustment in 1 pixel increments but typically this moves the problem from one part of the screen to the other. The VW200 has the ability to address this at a sub pixel level using video processing in different zones. However, according to user reports it has a negative affect on PQ and is more a marketing gimmick. Also MC can be affected by the shift and zoom position of the lens and therefore may vary depending on your specific install requirements. As a rule of thumb the more lens shift and zoom applied the greater the potential issue.

LCOS shading can produce clouds/blobs/bands or colour when looking at large areas of light colour. My Sony had green blobs that appeared in snow scenes of sky shots and my JVC had three subtle yellowish horizonal bands. This varies from unit to unit and it's important you see the unit you are buying. It may also develop or worsen on some units over time.

AVI
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
I am guessing it is after using pj's for a long time that a person begins to notice these sort of things.

Some things may be pretty obvious such as RBE but this may reduce with extended viewing whilst others things you may only notice after extended viewing. I guess it also depends on what (if anything) you're coming from in terms of what bothers you or doesn't. I've owned/used a number of PJ's that use different techs and watched many hours of material. In a way I'm lucky in that I know what I like and don't like based on this experience. Some of the things I mentioned became more of an issue over time and somehow just didn't look right. Sometime when you see different products side by side it highlights issues that you don't always notice in isolation.

Had I known about some of these potential issues before I purchased I would have spent more time establishing if it was going to be a problem for me beforehand. Can Sony not provide guidance on who is able to demo their VW200 PJ ?

AVI
 

SilentSniper

Active Member
Some things may be pretty obvious such as RBE but this may reduce with extended viewing whilst others things you may only notice after extended viewing. I guess it also depends on what (if anything) you're coming from in terms of what bothers you or doesn't. I've owned/used a number of PJ's that use different techs and watched many hours of material. In a way I'm lucky in that I know what I like and don't like based on this experience. Some of the things I mentioned became more of an issue over time and somehow just didn't look right. Sometime when you see different products side by side it highlights issues that you don't always notice in isolation.

Had I known about some of these potential issues before I purchased I would have spent more time establishing if it was going to be a problem for me beforehand. Can Sony not provide guidance on who is able to demo their VW200 PJ ?

AVI



I spoke to SOny and said that it was a speical order item and can not be demoed :thumbsdow This seems rediculous to me!

In any case I think I am leaning towards the HD100 or D80e as I can get an HD100 or D80e for around the same price.

Do you think I would or could be dissapointed by the HD100?

Once purchased do I need to have it professionally calibrated?
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
Do you think I would or could be dissapointed by the HD100?

Once purchased do I need to have it professionally calibrated?


I'm not you but assuming you're not too bothered by some/all of the areas I mentioned and it's your first PJ I doubt you will be dissapointed by any of the PJ's on your list. They are all good machines:) When you do demo make sure you use a range of familar material (I avoid animation) that has a mixture of dark and bright scenes. Also have the dealer turn off the soundtrack so you can hear the noise the PJ makes. It's also a good idea to ask if the PJ is properly calibrated.

Unfortunately it isn't possible to get accurate colour from the HD100 even with professional calibration . :( Personally I would consider what could be done to improve the room to gain better results from what ever you decide to purchase.

AVI
 

jacko5

Active Member
I spoke to SOny and said that it was a speical order item and can not be demoed :thumbsdow This seems rediculous to me!

In any case I think I am leaning towards the HD100 or D80e as I can get an HD100 or D80e for around the same price.

Do you think I would or could be dissapointed by the HD100?

Once purchased do I need to have it professionally calibrated?
If you can't demo the Sony VW200, eliminate it from your list. You are about to spend too much money to buy blind.
I would suggest you give David a ring at AVWOW.com and see if he can demo the HD100 and Sim2 D80E side by side. It will be worth the drive to Clacton if he can.
 

NonPayingMember

Previously Liam @ Prog AV
Professional calibration is certainly advised, especially at this budget level. But as I said before, look at your room and see if there are any small changes you can make to help the light level in there for projection. If there is then get them done before any professional calibration, since the calibration would need doing again with any major change to the room lighting. As with audio where 50% of what you are listening to is generally the room, with projection the light control within the room and reflection from surfaces can be the difference between a projected image that looks like a washed out pub projector, and an image that looks like an 8ft wide plasma.

P.S. we have JVC and Sim2 demo units, and offer home demo if you want to see it in the light conditions you are actually going to be living in (and are seriously considering a purchase before I get every forum member emailing me for a loan of five grands worth of projector!!!!).
 

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