JVC 2018 Speculation Thread

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by johnyh, Aug 1, 2018.

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  1. johnyh

    johnyh
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    With IFA just around the corner and with Allan from Ideal AV dropping the hint that something is in the pipeline. I was wondering whether any of you not signed up to an NDA have heard any JVC rumours for this year?

    Or just want to speculate....

    As an owner of an HD750 I'm very close to pushing the button on an upgrade. So anything "true 4k"/laser under £8k (one can dream) will interest me....
     
  2. Peter Parker

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    From the hints I've seen over on AVS a few weeks ago, I think there's a lamp based 4K machine in the works, but it won't be cheap.
     
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  3. jfinnie

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    Will be really interesting to see; this year has potential to be more interesting than most it seems, particularly if JVC have anything in response to the Sony 760 laser. There is lots of speculation about whether or not more native 4K units are going to drop and what they will have contrast-wise, inciting the usual debates about whether 4K native is preferable at the cost of native contrast...
     
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  4. Peter Parker

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    If the lamp based 4K JVC emerges, I'll be curious how JVC thinks it will compete with Sony's lamp based 4K projectors, especially if the contrast is much the same or less.

    As you say could be an interesting year.
     
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  5. jfinnie

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    Yup. If the new 4K units are pitched against the existing Sony models and the contrast is similar - then you start to think that the Sonys probably have better processing (though the verdict appears to be out on whether the banding has gone, even in the Laser unit according to Ekki @ Cine4home). What is the competitive advantage? Doubt it would be price.

    I'd like a 4K unit that doesn't have an audible noise to it from 4k-shifting though, so I'd probably give up some contrast for the cause.

    I think equally interesting will be what Epson come up with... whether there is something coming to replace the LS10500 or lower down units...
     
  6. Jonesthegas

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    Are we expecting this years crop to have HDMI 2.1?

    Martin
     
  7. jfinnie

    jfinnie
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    I guess unless they add something like high frame rate or 8k (or you particularly need 60p 444 HDR) there really isn't much point.
     
  8. Jonesthegas

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    What about dynamic metadata to aid HDR reproduction?
     
  9. Rock Danger

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    Prepare to be disinterested.
     
  10. dhts

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    I'm just giddy with excitement for version 7 of eshift, why would anyone want more than that from the next release ?
     
  11. johnyh

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    Step on a guy's hope why don't you? <sniff>

    ...but as an owner of a X5900 you have an interest in JVC not producing such so soon.... :) (I've been there).

    But yeah, my hope is already in neutral....I'm not going to be _that_ disappointed.
     
  12. Rock Danger

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    There's no affordable lamp or laser based model this year, certainly not the laser. The rest of the line up is big trouser stuff only.
     
  13. scrowe

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    There doesn't seem to be any reliable info as yet, but it does appear that anyone hoping that JVC will drop in a laser and 4K lens to the current range and price-points will no doubt be waiting quite awhile longer. I can't help thinking JVC will need a fundamental technology shift and ground up redesign. Thoughts on being able to shrink/scale the Z1 are apparently unrealistic, and whilst we may see a cheaper version to compete at the Sony 4K laser price-point, that is still twice as much as our existing JVC range, and still too big and noisy for a living room, even if we could afford it.

    I am wondering if Sony can start to really turn the screws, or maybe Epson will eat JVCs lunch by giving us a 4k version of their very affordable laser offering. Could be a critical couple of years for JVC, I also subscribe to the theory that 100" OLED or micro-Led panels will be available for £10k in 2019/2020.
     
  14. Peter Parker

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    I'd like to see a 4k Epson laser just to see what they can do and what the price will be.
     
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  15. jfinnie

    jfinnie
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    I know I ended up not getting one, but for me the LS10000/LS10500 were/ still are the most stand-out interesting projector developments for years. Likewise will be really interested to see what they do next. Hopefully they weren't just using it as a vehicle to use up the R-series bits they had. Worst fear there would be that new product ends up just being a 9300 with a laser instead of a lamp in it - I'd be surprised (given the size of the chassis) if someone wasn't eyeing sticking a laser in the 9300.
     
  16. Peter Parker

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    I wondered if it had just taken them a long time to get the R-LCD working and reliable after it had been first seen some years ago, and now that they had, they put it into their higher end laser model so they could still keep their normal range LCDs. I'd like to think the laser and R-LCD is now part of their line-up. The lasers certainly seem to be as they have them in many other commercial models right now too. I haven't checked to see if they're using R-LCD in any other range of their pjs.

    Sticking just to LCD for the future and dumping R-LCD would be a big disappointment IMHO and a step backwards development wise, with or without a laser, and give JVC back that part of the market share they had nibbled into.

    I think they'd also have to increase the lumens a bit more as over on avs that seemed more of a complaint than the reduced contrast. I guess like the JVC Z1 and Sony 5000 owners, lumens are more important to them than contrast as even though those models have lower on/off than the lamp based models, the Z1 owners prefer the other image attributes over that of the lamp models.
     
  17. jfinnie

    jfinnie
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    I'm pretty sure the LS10500 is the only R-LCD projector Epson do. All the commercial lasers have always been "standard" LCD setups. I guess we'll find out soon enough where Epson think the future is.

    I think Epson have more laser experience than most so it will be interesting either way to see what they come up with.
     
  18. dhts

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    I agree, plus they were very aggressive with the feature set on the 7300/9300 given the price point whereas JVC and Sony were making subtle changes with pricing largely unchanged. I think it's Epson which will force the competition to be more creative.
     
  19. jfinnie

    jfinnie
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    Yup, someone at Epson was definitely smoking something it seems as over a short period all their consumer product ranges got overhauled. I'm really surprised given the value proposition on offer by the Epson laser that it hasn't stimulated the rest of the laser HT projector market a bit more. The Z1 I kind of get as it is a hulking monster of a machine, but I don't get where the money is going in the 760 Sony laser - it's literally £10k for the laser engine over the 260.
     
  20. Peter Parker

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    Optoma have a laser DLP at a similar price to the Epson, so like you I'm also scratching my head as to why the Sony is the price it is unless the new lens (and maybe 'new' non degrading panels) have something to do with it.

    Epson have lasers in a lot of their LCD projectors and with a lot more lumens in some models so they definitely have the tech and the laser does seem very robust and affordable.

    As it is, if Epson can produce a whole new machine with new (R-LCD) tech and laser, I would have thought Sony could have easily rearranged their existing tech with lasers instead of lamps. After all, it's not as if they didn't already have the 4k tech etc already.

    I doubt it's as simple as taking the lamp out and putting a laser in as there are phosphor panels and two laser at this price point, but Sony has been doing this for years. I wonder if it's because they have a good market where people are buying at this price so keep the prices artificially high (especially in the USA for the 760) as they're really the only game in town when it comes to native 4K for mere mortals.

    I think Epson could up the lumens relatively easily, but improving contrast may take a little longer (look how long it took JVC and they still haven't bottomed out) and a native 4K panel may also be detrimental to cost and contrast, so that may also take a little longer. I still think a 4.15m chip like Tis first XPR chip would be a nice step up in resolution without taking too much of a hit on contrast, unless they can use two birefringence eshift actuators to use the existing 1080 chip to eshift twice instead of once (and not lose too much on/off CR but maybe the loss of ANSI is an issue), but I don't think the panels are fast enough to do that, unlike DLP.

    Interesting times ahead and I'm curious to see what this year brings. I'm in no rush to upgrade, but in 4 or 5 years I might be and that might be when there are more affordable 4k laser pjs with an HDR that is more standardised with more consistent disks and doesn't need constant tweaking - assuming it's still around. Somehow though, I don't think it's going to fade away like 3D has though.
     
  21. jfinnie

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    You get the same "new" lens in the base model 260 Sony at £5k and supposedly the same panels. So unless they're taking a dirt dive on the margins for that product and the 360, and cost of the laser units represent what they need to charge to make money overall on the whole product range, it doesn't make sense.

    JVC managed to shoe-horn a laser module and phosphor wheel setup into their maligned existing X-series chassis for simulation market, so it's obviously possible. Though that unit is also not that bright.

    Perhaps I'm underestimating what is needed to make a bright laser suitable for HT use with a useful wide colour gamut.
     
  22. Apollo

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    Agreed, my understanding was that the updated lens and current gen SXRD chips were shared across the Sony 4k range (260/360/'updated' 550/760).

    The price delta from the 550 to the 760 is wide because that is what Sony feels the (installation) market will bear. They will also be looking for development payback for the new chassis, cooling system and laser/phosphor setup. No doubt there will be some price erosion and trickle down of the tech to lower price points when the competition has something to offer which applies pressure.

    I actually feel the 260/360 are pretty decent value if you prefer their particular attributes. We should all feel fortunate that there are now three different manufacturers putting out their own spin on reflective LCD tech at the £5-7k price point. More choice and competition can only be good for the enthusiast :)
     
  23. Peter Parker

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    Yeah, I guess as I said earlier, it may have more to do with what people are willing to pay and people are buying Sony's because they're true native 4K so they can charge more for that and keep the prices up. The US price hike for the 760 is a perfect example of that - they're biggest price margin in their biggest market.

    There must be reasons why the JVC laser sim range haven't been made into cinema models as they've been around for a good few years now, so maybe there is a bit more involved to get it closer to the performance of the lamp range. It could be there's no room for enough laser diodes to get the lumens they need for example. Would be nice to know why - @GaryB may know a bit more about that perhaps.

    Eshift lamp, Eshift laser, 4K lamp, 4K laser seem a good choice and range and JVC has the tech for all those combinations but still haven't produced eshift laser. I think many people would love that combination if it had the same overall performance as the lamp range, plus the added benefits of the laser. I'm surprised JVC can't do it and Epson can - this is Epons first R-LCD model and it has laser too, at a similar price to JVCs midrange lamp pj.
     
  24. jfinnie

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    I had the same question and I concluded it looks very noisy (probably a symptom of cramming the laser into a chassis that wasn't designed for it). Lumens is lower than the Epson I think, also. So perhaps it has a very niche set of features that appeal to the sim market only.
     
  25. linnasak

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    Hi

    Recently got the 760. Basically a big heavy unit much more substantial than my old JVC. Also at 44lb some 13lb heavier than the 360, I suspect lot is in the lens. As I have said on other threads only projector I have seen which just left me staring with a WOW. Never had that on demo of JVC 9500. The previous I looked at. So I would say the price difference justified.

    Kevin
     
  26. Apollo

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    The extra weight will be mainly from the cooling system. The lens is the same as the lamp based 4K models.
     
  27. jfinnie

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    As @Apollo says, The lens is the same, Sony have confirmed as much. They have two lenses for consumer 4K; a "standard" lens which is in the 2-8 series and the "ARC-F" lens which is supposed to be amazing but only found in the VW1100 and 5000 as yet.

    There is a thought going round that Sony will probably bring out a new laser with the ARC-F lens in the next month.

    Much of the extra weight is probably the laser module. It is a huge diecast aluminium and copper finned beast compared to a lamp:
    [​IMG]

    I really liked the picture on the Sony laser (saw it split screen against the JVC 7900 and Epson 10500, there was a lot to like about all of them), and even though I was in a fairly unique position of not really needing to worry about money on the PJ (as someone else was picking up the bill) I could't see £9K in benefit. Had I not really needed quite a few other upgrades that were competing for the money I'd have been perhaps more tempted.

    When you look at the Epson laser vs the rest of their range - it is also much bigger and heavier, but the premium they are charging over something like a 9300 is much smaller.

    Yup, it smacks of making hay while the sun shines. The US pricing is even more ridiculous - over there they've priced the 760 at 5x the cost of the 260! It seems to me it can't be anything other than working out how many they'd like to sell and pitching the price at that point.

    I agree, the pricing on the 260/360 is very good, and the feature set pretty good. There are theories that they might stick proper 18G inputs in ther equivalent new models this year, with the processor improvements, and if that happens that would be one of the reasons I went with the JVC crossed off the list.

    I'm personally feeling the pain at the moment for the choices JVC have made in pursuing high contrast to the n'th degree (I've got a broken second iris, and a bit of eShift whine from eShift mech); I think the technical certainty from a mechanically simpler native 4K unit, albeit at lower contrast is a trade-off well worth considering. But I do like that JVC black... hrmph!!! :)
     
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  28. linnasak

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    Would be a bit surprised if weight down to fans, which tend to be plastics etc. Could be some passive cooling steel I suppose, but Glass is heavy which makes me think lens. The threads I have seen on the lens being the same, seem fairly vague. Would be interesting to get a definitive parts list to prove they are the same or not.

    To illustrate See quote from Phil’s AVFORUMS 760 review.

    “Sony don’t state exactly how the lens is constructed or how many elements it has, but you can be assured that this is high quality glass and a real step up on the VW360ES and JVC X7900 models which are in the £10K and under price bracket; so you can see where some of the £15K asking price is going.”

    Sony VPL-VW760ES 4K Laser Projector Review


    Kevin
     
  29. jfinnie

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    Sony make an almighty hoo-har about the improved lenses up the range; If this was different we would know about it in no uncertain terms. At worst I'd say Phil was just factually incorrect, at best he was looking at sample to sample variation between the 760 and 360 he was comparing. Everything else I've read suggests there is sample variation from unit to unit but they are the same lens.
     
  30. linnasak

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    760 was marketed at IFA as a downgraded 5000 rather than upgraded 360. Anyway perhaps some of the reps just dont know!
     
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