Just set ALL speakers as SMALL and send BASS to subwoofer ONLY !!!!!

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by dUnKle, Mar 19, 2001.

  1. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    I know the title sounds more like a posting than a title but its a question asked loads ( including by myself ) that I had to post an answer.

    I have gone and spent most of SUNDAY ( my Girlfriend was working ) re-reading posts on this subject and also the article section on this very web site ( http://www.homecinemachoice.com/articles/faq/faqframe.html )

    I then went and messed about for an hour or so listening to various scenes ( and playing music from MTV ) and experimenting with the bass settings.

    By doing the above you will save your self no end of hassle and as long as you set your speakers and sub to the SAME volume you will PROBABLY get THE best results from your speakers.

    Some of you will prefer to set things differently and I know there are many people out there ( of whos advice has been given and apreciated ) who understand all about roll-off settings and the frequancies that there speakers can reach, but for those of us who are unsure then spend a few months with the settings above, THEN have a go and seeing if you can improve things.

    You may think that I have been a little sad doing this ( I do [​IMG] ) but to get the best out you have to put a little in
     
  2. HT Dude

    HT Dude
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    Agreed. I wrote that article and I think I put that all speakers to small and all bass to sub is the best place to start. For most people, it's also the best place to end!
     
  3. Ramius

    Ramius
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    WooHoo [​IMG]

    I'm pleased you've cracked it!!

    But did you not try this setup configuration when I initially suggested it? [​IMG]

    Another tip is to run your subs amp as high as possible and use your receiver to control the overall output level. This stops clipping/distortion in the receivers preamp.

    Cheers
     
  4. Ramius

    Ramius
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    LOL.

    OK. I agree with all the above.

    Everything needs to be taken into account.
    The listening level. The room size. The subwoofers performance. Speakers, amp...

    But why send a frequency to a speaker that's not designed to reproduce it??
    What good can come of this [​IMG]


    The joy [​IMG]

     
  5. Kevin Gilmour

    Kevin Gilmour
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    A thread that caught my eye because :

    a) On Sunday afternoon I also set up my system (speakers set to small etc) based on the HCC FAQ pages, and

    b) I was using the Monster Inc trailer to test the set up

    Spooky !

    I also tried the DTS version of Jurassic Park. I'd been told that with speakers set to small and sub properly calibrated, the soundtrack on this particular disc would come alive.

    [​IMG] .....try chapter 11

    Kev
     
  6. jimcarney

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    Hi
    Would any of you suggest I bypass the REGA VULCANS crossover ?
    Jim
     
  7. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    Unfortunatly I am on nights at the moment so I will wait until im a little less tired ( I HATE being tired at 7am [​IMG] )

    However I still am unsure about the subwoofer.

    I have what I think is a very good sub ( a REL Q100E ) and also a sub which is very ( or was ) popular.

    I gave up with the whole speaker connection thing as that seemed to be doubling(?) bass sounds.

    However I can only seem to produce the slam sounds that I want ( e.g heavy footfalls, Shotguns and explosions ) by running the sub in SLAM mode ( and everyone cringes and crys NOOOOOOOOooooooooooo )

    Saying that I have not noticed any loss ( in demos of things such as the THX and DTS logos ) of low end bass rumble and depth.

    ------------------
    You don't have to have a huge screen or the biggest speakers to have a true home cinema. Many people have lost the point in the middle of this boom of technology. At the end of the day it all boils down to the FILMS!!!

    "You're one ugly motherf**ker."
     
  8. HT Dude

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    Duncan, in Slam mode, you are possibly trying to achieve thump in places (and at levels) where *you* think it should be, rather than what the sound engineer intended.
     
  9. mart.stokes

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    Ramius, if the old, old (two generations ago) Home Entertainment website were still available you would have found Duncan worrying about it years ago. I know how he feels, no matter how much you spend on equipment you always fear that one setting may make all of the difference.

    Me? Still everything set to large with bass also directed to the sub, but the sub cut off at about 60Hz (don't get all of the .1 channel but what the hell). Why? Well even balancing my system using an SPL meter when I watch the advert for Monster Inc. on Toy Story II only "large" gives me the proper feeling when the monsters knock on the door, fall through the door and then walk around the room. Yes, slight loss of clarity in the mid to treble because the amp is handling the bass frequencies but other than that I am happy!

    Duncan, try it using the two different setting on this Monsters Inc. example, let me know what you think.

    [This message has been edited by mart.stokes (edited 20-03-2001).]

    [This message has been edited by mart.stokes (edited 20-03-2001).]
     
  10. Gary Palmer

    Gary Palmer
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    I agree with Mart.

    I think it depends a lot on your amp/processor and how well it handles the crossover as well as the speakers being used.

    I found all speakers on large with the .1LFE rerouted to left and right and a REL sub connected at speaker level (crossover set to come in below the main speakers) gave the deepest and most controlled bass for movies and music.

    Now I have a new processor and I will try the whole thing again because the processor has configurable crossover levels for each speaker (I'll probably start with 40Hz for L&R, 60Hz Centre, 80Hz rear and sub at line level)

    The joy of HC ??!! ;-)
     
  11. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    The problem I have is although I am a big Home Entertainment ( cinema ? ) fan and have some rather good equipment im still not great with the tech speak.

    The REL is suposed to be one of THE BEST subs by THE BEST manufactuer, yet I hear people say they have there sub set at a certain roll off and my REL is only marked min or max ?

    Also REL are supposed to know what they are doing, so I do not believe that the SLAM mode was just put there as a gimmick for sales people to use ( I actually do not think that any decent dealer who new what he was doing would use such a gimmick ). I was made to believe that SLAM was there more as a HOME CINEMA mode, to make use of the high impact moments of films.

    Also as the sub is active I am unsure what I should do about volume, do I turn it FULL on the sub and then lower it from the amp end ? or full at the amp and lower it at the sub ? or does it not matter as long as the sound is 75db
     
  12. mart.stokes

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    Kevin Gilmour, I just think some trailers stand out to "fans" as being useful and the Monsters Inc. one was obvious because it had "real life" type sounds in.

    I honestly don't know what a T Rex sounds like!! But I do know what a door being banged sounds like.

    I believe I would be better off served going to "small" IF I got a better sub. I just believe my B&W fronts are more responsive to that sort of bass (obviously the Denon contributes) than the 75watt M&K sub I have.
     
  13. Ramius

    Ramius
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    I'm hungover, I feel terrible. [​IMG]

    Duncan, are you sure you're not sat in a room null??

    It's best to run the sub amp as high as possible and control the level at the receiver end. This eliminates clipping in the receivers preamp stage.

    I'd set the crossover to max. That way you'll get the full LFE through (and the other redirected bass if using the small speaker setting).

    Cheers

    [This message has been edited by Ramius (edited 21-03-2001).]
     
  14. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    cos I put so much faith in martin i have given up some valuable sleeping time and had another mess about.

    set all front to large and bass to both front and sub. run monsters demo again and you can really notice ( and feel ) the difference, you can feel the door knock but I am still not happy in that the thud I get when the land on the floor is not bumpy enough ( perhaps its not supposed to be )

    also tried the demo with sub in slam mode and it just seems louder and a touch overblown

    ------------------
    You don't have to have a huge screen or the biggest speakers to have a true home cinema. Many people have lost the point in the middle of this boom of technology. At the end of the day it all boils down to the FILMS!!!

    "You're one ugly motherf**ker."
     
  15. Ramius

    Ramius
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    The above settings are applicable when connecting at low level.

    Cheers
     
  16. mart.stokes

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    Ramius, "why send a frequency to a speaker that is not designed to reproduce it?".

    I dunno, but that's what people with hi-fi equipment have been doing for the past 40 years! I agree with what you say but I still feel that doing the integration myself (large and then adjust sub) gives better results. I do see this as a failing of the sub BUT it may be that it is my room. Using an SPL is not always accurate because it registers the "loudness" of the highest frequency (I believe, it can't know what frequencies you are throwing at it). So, for example, if the sub/room combination gives a peak at 70hz but all other frequencies are well below that I will have set everything according to that 70hz peak. Therefore, using small settings, a 60hz "thump" may not come across as well as if it were output by the B&Ws which are calibrated to themselves (and may be better situated in the room for a flatter response).

    I've convinced myself, I need to f*rt about with sub positioning!

    Also Ramius, good point about the clipping, never thought of that!
     
  17. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Quote-
    ".....but that's what people with hi-fi equipment have been doing for the past 40 years!..."

    Agreed mart, but DD & DTS are so different from normal music in that they can have high amplitude low frequency bass in the main channels.- Jurassic Park is a great example.

    I recommend this to everyone-
    Use a disc or tone generator, whatever, and manually chart the response of your sub at the listening position using the SPL meter. Say in 1 or 2 Hz steps from 20Hz to 100Hz. Don't use too high volume levels.
    This will show you exactly what your room is doing to the subs response.

    Cheers
     
  18. pavlos

    pavlos
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    hi guys,can you please explain to me to a few things concerning the re-direction of the bass frequencies to the sub, assuming that I want to re-direct the bass frequencies from my main speakers and surround ones to my subwoofe does that means that all the range of the bass frequencies will be re-directed, and that comes to the point that the crossover comes in right? can you explain to me what is the crossover frequency .

    My current system is:

    Main speakers Jamo E870( they clain to start from 50hz)
    center speaker ( start from 50Hz as well)

    surround ones( bi-polar , start from 100hz)

    subwoofer...crossover frequency from 50hz to 150 hz and the subwwofer is located next to the left main speaker

    amplifier sony str 930

    So guys assuming I want to re-direct the bass frequencies from my main and surround speakers to the subwwofer can you let know what is the procedure .

    PS

    what is the use of the phase control and when do we use it?

    [This message has been edited by pavlos (edited 21-03-2001).]
     
  19. mart.stokes

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    Ramius, sorry to be a pain do you know where can I get a disk that shows WHAT frequency is being generated on a sweep? DVD Spectacular does a frequency sweep from 20hz to 20khz on each channel, but you don't know what it is doing at any one moment in time.
     
  20. Ramius

    Ramius
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    pavlos

    When a speaker is set to 'small' the internal crossover in your amp is activated for that channel. The crossover will then mix the frequencies below its value in with the LFE. So say your amp has a 80Hz crossover, it will redirect the frequencies below 80Hz to the sub.
    Now the crossover wont just cut it off dead, it rolls the frequencies off. How fast or slow they are rolled off depends on the order of the crossover, commonly-
    1st order- 6dB per octave, 2nd order- 12dB per octave, 3rd order 18dB per octave & 4th order 24dB per octave.

    The user manual should tell you the value and the order of the crossover.
    Some amps have user adjustable ones, Eg- maybe giving you a choice of 40Hz or 60, 80, 100, 120Hz, this gives you a lot more flexibility.

    Cheers
     
  21. Ramius

    Ramius
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    mart.stokes

    I made mine. I used a tone generator to create wav files and my friend burnt me a CD.

    You can buy one here- http://basszone.stryke.com/testcd.html

    But the good news is that a guy called TerryC who posts at the US forums made an MP3 specifically for the job. Anybody can download it from here- http://members.tripod.com/~terryctheater/shivaphotoalbum/page12.html

    Just scroll down to the 'Test Tones & Sweeps' section, the file is called 'MP3 15-80Hz Sweep, 1Hz increments-5 Seconds each'

    Have fun [​IMG]

    Cheers
     
  22. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    Am I correct in saying this.

    If you have ALL speaker set as LARGE then the only sounds that you get from your subwoofer will be those designed for the .1 part of the soundtrack ( DTS and the like )

    If you set ALL speakers to small then the sub will not only produce the .1 part of the soundtrack but also the bass frequancies of which the amp says the speakers can not get as they are too small.

    Is that correct ? In theory I think it is but in practice im not sure !

    If it was correct then why when I run the MONSTERS INC. Trailer does it sound more bassy ( I hate trying to describe sounds, but in the demo I prefer it when I can feel the knock on the door and the slump on the floor ) with the speakers set as large and the bass sent to BOTH front and sub ???

    Surely there should be NO difference, or is this my simple mind going into overtime ? It seem to be that either setting is the same, as you are getting your bass sounds from somewere, but maybe not the correct speaker.

    Everytime I think I have it cracked I confuse myself even more [​IMG]

    Does anybody here use a REL Q100E ? If so what do you think about it ? Im starting to think that that last little bit of bang that the sub is missing is not in there and a new sub is needed !

    Im also unsure RAMIUS about this room null thing. Is it possible for it to be explained without the tech talk ( im sorry but I is thick ) is there anything that I can do to incease the bass from the sub ?

    Also if I set all speakers to large then is the sound going to be worse ? I know that this sounds like a stupid question ( again ! ) but obviously the amp is going to be giving more work to each speaker.

    I guess what I need is a 5 speakers that give excellent non-bass clarity sounds but will a REL Q400 plugged into the bottom of each [​IMG]



    ------------------
    You don't have to have a huge screen or the biggest speakers to have a true home cinema. Many people have lost the point in the middle of this boom of technology. At the end of the day it all boils down to the FILMS!!!

    "You're one ugly motherf**ker."
     
  23. mart.stokes

    mart.stokes
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    Ramius, thanks for that.

    Duncan, The AVC-A1D has the "sub and front" option which allows you to set stuff to large AND it be sent to the sub. Your asumptions are correct for normal bass management.

    I suggest you borrow my DVD Spectacular disk and play around with that. e-mail me and we will arrange something, I'm tied up next week but should be free the week after.
     
  24. mart.stokes

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    I knew I would get Duncan going with that Monsters Inc. trailer! It's a great little one that contains lots of good sounds, the twisting of the door knob, the bass thumps, high and low pitched voices.


    [This message has been edited by mart.stokes (edited 21-03-2001).]
     
  25. mart.stokes

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    Ramius, I have ordered the test CD you mention. Looks good, we just need somebody to make a DD or DTS 5.1 version sweeping around the 5.1 channels on an individual basis. $11 for the disk and about $3 postage, can't go wrong!
     
  26. dUnKle

    dUnKle
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    Martin ill e-mail you when I have my shifts sorted, im trying to book some leave so I will let you know nearer the time, also the other thing you mailed me about sounds like a great idea, if im on rest days or can get some leave ill join with you for sure !

    Anyway back to topic. The MONSTER INC. trailer is great for calibrating speakers, even the rear effects of the growling dog. Most impressive and is the reason I have now followed you lead and set FRONT and CENTER to LARGE and sent the BASS to BOTH SUB and FRONT. You can now see the cones of my CC6 really moving and creating the bass, perhaps I should get saving for that new center [​IMG]

    Anyway calibration levels ? Im using 70DB with 75 for the sub.

    Anyway it 7:18 and I have just finished my night shift, the house is all mine so im gonna forget the whole calibration thing, have a couple of cold beers and watch WHAT LIES BENAETH

    Probably post again later

    Thanks for all the advice

    keep it coming

    ------------------
    You don't have to have a huge screen or the biggest speakers to have a true home cinema. Many people have lost the point in the middle of this boom of technology. At the end of the day it all boils down to the FILMS!!!

    "You're one ugly motherf**ker."
     
  27. Koen

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    Dear Duncan,
    the thing you mentioned about bass, that it
    should be the same, whatever you set your speakers ? I think it's pretty simple.
    With everything set to large, all speakers will get all the frequencies, except the .1 channel. The sub will then only get the bass especcially recorded for it. If you set your speakers to small, then the sub will also do the bass that's being 'routed away' from your other speakers. But I think this last option will give you more bass then the first setting though, simply because of the roll-off on the crossover in your receiver.
    If it has a crossover point at 80 Hz, it won't just kill all frequencies below, but it will roll them of gently, according to the order it is. So in general, although it may sound a little weird, I think it's normal that the small setting will give you more bass. Anyway, hope you enjoy the flick !
    Cheers,

    "I'll be right here"

    Koen
     
  28. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Duncan, room nulls and peaks are created as the sound wave bounces around your room.

    Play some bassy music and just walk around your room. In some places the bass will be loud and boomy (peak) and in other places it will disappear (null).
    These nulls and peaks happen at certian frequencies dependent on the room. I think you mentioned earlier, when you play a frequency sweep it sounds like- WOW wow WOW wow WOW as the frequencies change.

    So if you're sat in a 40 or 50Hz null that would explian why you don't get the 'punch' or 'slam' but you still get the low 'rumble'.
    Thats why manaul charting (as described earlier) will show you whats going on in your room.

    Peaks cans be tamed with EQ. Nulls are buggers, you can't boost them. You have to reposition your sub.

    Once you get a resonable flat response you'll be very pleased and probably want more- time for an ugrade [​IMG]

    Cheers.

     
  29. pavlos

    pavlos
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    [Thanks for your reply, one more question, assuming that my amplifier has an internal crossover frequency at 100 hz, that means all frequencies below 100hz will be re-directed to the subwoofer, any bass frequencies above 100 hz will be emmited from main, center and surround speakers, correct me if i am wrong, now I want to know what will be the impact of the EQ, what I want to say is by default the the bass frequencies of my main, center and surround speakers is 250hz, shall it let it there or should I lower it, the lowest bass freq it goeswith the use of the EQ) is 100hz for each speaker.

    And lastly is better to have the amplifiers subs volume level to zero and use the subs own amplifier volume level to control the output?

    Thanks in advance

    pavlos
     
  30. Ramius

    Ramius
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    mart.stokes
    Hope you enjoy the disc and be careful not to fry any equipment. [​IMG]

    Quote-
    ".....You can now see the cones of my CC6 really moving and creating the bass....."

    Sorry to throw a spanner in the works but I don't like the sound of that. [​IMG]
    Bass requires a lot of air to be moved thats why you see subwoofers with large long throw drivers, multiple drivers, massive amp power, it's all big big big, so let the subwoofer do the bass work. Your CC6 drivers will working at their limits. The further a driver moves the less linear it will become which then equals more distortion. A 12" driver will only have to move a fraction compared to a 6" driver to create the same SPL level at a given low frequency. So let each speaker do the job it was designed to do. [​IMG]

    Cheers.
     

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