Just passing through

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy & Energy Saving' started by hermanmunster, Sep 11, 2007.

  1. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    I used to visit this forum very regularly and contribute to some global warming subjects. I stopped doing so when it became clear that my views and those of others like me were seen as heretic.

    My politics....mildly conservative
    Green Taxes.....a con...no evidence of gathered taxation being used for 'green' initiatives
    MMGW still not proven

    As I cannot discuss these issues anymore without joining the Borg collective I will no longer contribute.
    I will pass by now and again to see if things change.

    It's not my forum and Stuart is perfectly entitled to do as he sees fit, but stifling debate is akin to burning books and we know where that led.
     
  2. stratagem

    stratagem
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    I'm of much the same view, fairly keen on wildlife and conservation as such, but certainly not a card carying MMGW party member.

    I too, keep an eye on it and have only recently started to occasionally communicate again. I have noticed it's all gone very dull with just the pro camps' one sided view.
     
  3. Nogbad

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    I would agree in part and my politics are mildly to the left.

    Taxes - no real evidence they are being used to improve the environment or modify behaviour - our emissions went up non?

    MMGW - slightly a red herring. I think there are indications that GW is occurring and we need to plan for that regardless of whether we are partly or wholly responsible (personally I think the latter is unlikely but the former probable)

    Some green issues are straight forward - no one wants to live beside a land fill or a dirty beach and therefore steps to reduce rubbish and pollution make plain common sense.
     
  4. simonoaks

    simonoaks
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    correct, we currently have £30billion of "green issue" related taxes per year at the moment, not a lot seen from it !
     
  5. andykn

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    That's not what green taxes are for. They are there because not only is the evidence for MMGW overwhelming but people still are emotionally opposed to it and any behavioural changes that will save them selves some money in the short term (lower bills) and lots in the longer term (no major economic damage due to climate change).

    So behaviour changes have to be forced. Its people like you who are the direct cause of the taxation.

    Thanks, mate.

    It is. The only debate is the size and scale of it and the changes that will result.
     
  6. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    I hope this doesn't deteriorate into yet another meandering debate about proof, absolute proof, undeniable proof, overwhelming weight of evidence ya di ya di ya... ad infinitum.
     
  7. stratagem

    stratagem
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    I wouldn't think so, I think the moderate unconvinced will simply humour the fanatical convinced as we are but mere guests in their forum, we will probably be insulted frequently for not being a disciple of MMGW, even if we have essentially the same aims of conservation, we will probably complain occasionally about being ripped off in the name of MMGW and we will probably let pass responses that state it is strangely all for our benefit without so much as a comment.
     
  8. andykn

    andykn
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    There's nothing strange about it. The worlds' scientists tell us that we are changing the climate. It doesn't take a scientist to realise that there isn't much in the way of climate change that is likely to be good for us as a society.

    So measures taken to try and prevent MMGW are good for us. QED.
     
  9. stratagem

    stratagem
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    So lets assume that after a few years we find that either..

    It wasn't all a man made problem after all and climate is still changing.

    or

    Even though the the UK population is bankrupt through excessive taxes, climate is still changing as the rest of the world used more than we saved.

    and

    Isn't it a shame we didn't use some of that £30 billion a year to prepare for the new climate.

    Doesn't it seem odd that our only innovative strategy for leading the world on climate change is tax?
     
  10. andykn

    andykn
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    But that's not a rational assumption - its not what's happening; thats just an emotional, irrational wish.
    Very possible. Much more likely if we do nothing. And we'll be in a much better position if we've saved a bit of cash individually by using less energy; that we don't need to use anyway.


    It would, were that last statement true. There are, however, other strategies too. Carbon trading, product labelling, the Carbon trust and so on.

    The tax is only there for those with the emotional, irrational, refusal to either believe that MMGW is real or to save money by cutting down on unnecessary energy use.

    Blame them for the taxes. They may ignore reality, our Government can't.
     
  11. simonoaks

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    It is a difficult subject, as today's society is very selfish and therefore they HAVE to be forced to make changes in various aspects that impact the masses.

    However, due to the Government's hidden taxation policies, cover-ups, blatant lies and spin, the nation is now very cynical towards anything they say. This Government is arrogant and has a policy of "do as I say not as I do". Perfect example of this is the EU referendum, where it was part of their last election manifesto to take it to the people to vote, however, for the last 3 years they have been doing everything in their power to crow bar the country into this agreement and avoiding delivering on, what is probably, the biggest promise they ever made.

    Add this to the huge scandals, lying in Parliament in order to go to war, various bribes and bungs, all of which were covered up, it is not surprising that a large amount of people do not believe them when they try and create even more taxes based on, in public option, the next fashionable thing that is in the media (MMGW).

    The problem, as with most government policies, is that they are poorly thought out and rarely deliver. Therefore, most people think, IF, MMGW exists then how is the £30 billion a year being spent?

    Of course, the opposition parties are not helping matters, by coming up with quite ridiculous badly thought out reactionary statements, that both believers and non believers think is just plain stupid (banning of plasmas for example).

    strategem comes up with two important points; is it fair that we as a nation, as always, tow the line, do what is best for everybody around, whilst other countries make no changes at all and therefore makes our efforts both futile and very costly?

    Also, and this is an important point I have raised several times which never really gets answered; what plans and spending is being put in place to deal with GW (according to the experts on here, it is going to happen, no matter what we do now, but by acting now we can reduce impact).

    I find it VERY worrying that our Government is not putting in plans for mass evacuations, drought, and starvation and not to mention the few million body-bags they need to procure.
     
  12. Nogbad

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    While I agree with much of what you say don't you think a few million body bags is the kind of hyperbole that skews the arguments off the bounds of reason.

    I don't have an issue with the observation that the world has warmed - Earth has had many warm phases and many cold phases too. The idea that the planet is capable of warming is science fact.

    Have we induced the current warm phase? Perhaps. I would think it fair to say that we certainly haven't helped and China's two new coal fired power stations a week for the next couple of years are certainly going to help confirm or refute the theory.

    Government strategies have been odd and opportunistic (nothing new there then) The pro nuclear lobby have fallen on CO2 with glee and the Treasury have taxed without bothering to check to see if the taxes modify behaviour (do they even care?).

    Whether natural or man made we do, however, have to think carefully about what a warmer climate means. There will be losers and undoubtedly there will be winners.
     
  13. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    Wow andykn so it's all my fault.......I am to blame for a chancellor that has taxed ordinary working people to a level beyond reason. I'd better apologise to the forum for being such a selfish git....sorry everybody..

    You see this is the sort of rabid environmentalist rubbish that is being espoused here.

    I don't need taxing to stop me harming myself or others....perhaps I need education....I already use A class appliances, low power lightbulbs, leave nothing on stanby etc etc....so the money I save I now pay to HM government instead... great. I drive an economical car that put's out very low levels of CO2 and uses less fuel...the money I save myself is more than made up for the extra taxes I pay if I want to go on holiday...god forbid on a plane just once a year...that's all I can afford.

    So I'm doing my bit, paying my extra taxes and I'm to blame for it all.

    Which book of fairytale economics did that come from?
     
  14. simonoaks

    simonoaks
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    Was being a bit dramatic to get an answer lol

    I agree with what you say, as do a majority of the population. Unfortunately, you cannot, on this forum, directly say you doubt if there is GW or if there is, it is MM.

    The point is, 5 billion people are not going to change. therefore, everything our government does just punishes their voters. What they should be doing is using the money to stop/encourage the countries around the world who actually have an impact (again IF indeed MMGW exists :devil:).
     
  15. Manhattan Mike

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    And it was mainly due to this sort of talk why I stopped posting here. This is my first visit to the GW threads for over a month and I have also noticed that it’s just completely died a death. You can never have much of a conversation when only one viewpoint is allowed.

    And this is another reason why I have stopped posting, there is evidence that the globe may have warmed up a fraction but there is no evidence that man is the cause. People who feel there is overwhelming evidence for MMGW are in a very small minority both in the UK and in the US.

    Anyway, I wont stop around as I dont want to start any arguements off but I will be viewing the GW thread's now and then just to see if anything of interest is posted.
     
  16. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    But taxation never goes to 'fix' the 'problem' that gives rise to it. Smoking raises way more than it costs. The golden rule is 'keep income tax down.' To do this the government, both Tory and Labour will raise taxes elsewhere. So they are called Green Taxes. Nuts to that, they are tax. Thats all. If the taxes can be directed at something which will indirectly cut imports (ie oil based products) then that doubly helps the country. You raise tax and some people will reduce consumption which reduces imports which is also 'a good thing'. But then oil is not a good example, as motoring is cheaper now, relatively, than it was 20 yrs ago. They take more tax from it because duty has gone up with inflation (after the Tory fuel price escalator was dropped) and VAT has rocketed, but only because the raw material price has rocketed.
     
  17. Nimby

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    If you call a heated argument for and against MMGW a debate then you must feel your needs are more important than those of the majority. These "debates" went no further than Republican V Democrat, Labour V Konservative, Believe in God V don't believe in god. Liverpool V Man United. All an utterly pointless ring a ring of roses for the loudest voices. And you know what they say about empty vessels.

    There have been some thoughtful discussions recently with contributions from other than the "usual suspects".

    I suspect it will take some time before the lurkers feel safe to contribute without somebody with an agenda (but without a shred of scientific evidence) shouting them down.

    Why is it that you post that you are "just passing through"? I haven't seen you on any of the other forums starting a thread to say you were "just passing through". The Internet is stuffed to the gills with forums and newsgroups. Why do you home in on a subject where you prove your ignorance of the subject with every word you utter?

    Or are you simply trolling to get a response or (even better) a deletion so you can gain bragging rights amongst your cronies?

    Try posting in the AV subject forums that you are just passing through. See how long your post or thread lasts. Nobody will bat an eyelid or support your empty arm waving gestures as it vanishes from view..

    Look at me Mommy! Look at me! I got deleted! Dogh. :rolleyes:
     
  18. andykn

    andykn
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    I'm very sorry, I completely incorrectly inferred from your post that you weren't doing anything about it yourself.
    But my point is nothing to do with environmentalism per se. Its just correcting the repeated fallacy that taxes are to spend on what they're raised on. Green taxes are purely to alter behaviour, not to be spent on green issues.
    The only taxes on your holiday are Air Passenger Duty, introduced by the Tories, VAT, 8% under Labour, raised by more than 100% by the Tories and Insurance Premium tax, another Tory tax.

    Whatever your views of the current regimes taxes, its nothing to do with 'extra taxes I pay if I want to go on holiday'.
     
  19. Nogbad

    Nogbad
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    Are the taxes altering behaviour though? I have bought LE bulbs and recycle because they save me money not because they cost me money. I think the Government is going about this back to front.
     
  20. andykn

    andykn
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    Because the viewpoint that MMGW is not real is as scientifically valid as arguing that electricity is the devil's work and equally unwelcome on this forum.

    You might as well go on another forum and say the S-Video is better than Component because it said so in your horoscope.

    Its unlikely that anything of interest to you will be posted here as I suspect that all you are interested in is for someone to have magically disproved MMGW. Unfortunately for you, it won't happen, because MMGW is true and all of your assertions are false.

    Every assertion you made earlier was refuted but you still do not believe, that is because your disbelief is emotionally based, not rationally based.

    You said Bush was doing nothing, I showed he was spending a billion dollars.

    You asked if 'Bush's scientists' believed, I showed they did.

    You asserted that there wasn't a majority of scientists who believed, I showed there was.

    You never back up any of your assertions with any evidence.

    Even the assertion that you stopped posting here because of 'this sort of talk is false; you threw your toys out of the pram when the purpose of this forum was explained to you for the n'th time.
     
  21. andykn

    andykn
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    But many people refuse to, so the government make the savings bigger.
    As if!
     
  22. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    If you mean by altering behaviour you mean restricting choice, or better yet pricing people out of markets altogether, then you must be one of the very wealthy who can afford to do as they please.
    All the taxes you mentioned (and it matters not a jot where they originated as you would probably blame the 1798 government for income tax), are taxes at the point of sale. These taxes are heinously unfair and place a disproportionate load on those who can least afford to pay.
    Tax is just tax, and using environmental issues as an excuse to intoduce them, and for you to state it's to alter behaviour is just nonsensical claptrap.
    Tax is to raise money for the government to squander in any way it sees fit. It doesn't matter what colour the government is, they all do it.
    You just seem to be falling for it....that's all.
     
  23. andykn

    andykn
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    My point too. All our governments have always rejected the idea of taxes going back into what they're raised on. They even give it a silly name, 'hypothecated taxes'.

    There's no point in taxing cars to reduce congestion then building more roads, which increases congestion.

    Many taxes, especially green taxes, are about altering behaviour, not raising money for one specific purpose. The fact that they keep inome taxes down is a 'good thing' in my opinion. I prefer taxes when I have some sort of choice as to whether I pay them or not.
     
  24. andykn

    andykn
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    So I don't misunderstand you again, do you think that environmental taxes DO alter behaviour or that they do NOT alter behaviour?
     
  25. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    Oh dear nimby have I rattled your cage?

    1 I don't know you
    2 You know nothing about me....yet you make some very barbed comments
    3 Could I care less about what you think or say?....No

    As for empty vessels you certainly have more to say than most.

    Bragging rights with cronies? I gave that up when I was 12...when will you?

    If I have a post deleted then I accept the mods descision....it hasn't happened yet and I don't deliberatley try to provoke it...why would I?

    I posted in the General Chat section nimby......why would I have posted a thread with this title in the AV section.....where am I referring to any AV gear?

    As for people jumping in and shouting down any views that are disparate .......sums you up quite nicely.

    Try to be a nicer person...you will feel better for it.:)
     
  26. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    They only alter the behaviour of those they price out of the market.
     
  27. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    it was quite an extensive and emotive response to something you couldn't care less about.
     
  28. hermanmunster

    hermanmunster
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    Emotive? I must be coming over all sensitive like;)
     
  29. johntheexpat

    johntheexpat
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    Try Anthisan, it stops minor irritations
    oops, medical stuff, a big no no. :eek:
    Advertising too :eek: :eek:

    Always consult your doctor* or pharmacist after taking medical advice on AVForums

    *PhD's don't count
     
  30. nikyzf

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    I thought Nimby was responding to MM's fly-by return visit, not to you, but then it's hard to tell if there is no quoted content at all. :)
     

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