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Just add power HD over IP

messimagician

Active Member
So I've been looking at the 3G that does 4k but it's hard to find prices or sellers

Should this system be used on its own closed network? Would it effect data speeds if you used the same switch for other tasks ect?

And just to make sure I've got this correct. If you have more than one tv it doesn't matter what it supports be it 4k or just 1080p, you won't have a problem unlike HDbaseT where it will use the lowest denomination?
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Network - ideally you aim to keep your IP and UHD traffic separated, some folk do configure their Gigabit switch to allow you to run everything on a single switch.

Multi-cast - these systems generally allow you to select the Source you wish to view on the individual Receiver (RX) units and that then allows the manufacturer to embed Video/Audio processing in each RX to allow you to optimise each RX to the connected Display/Soundbar/AVR.

Multi-cast - where you have UHD Sources and a mix of Display device/Zone capabilities you have to be clear what the system caters for on the Input and Output side and also how it deals with HDCP 2.2.

Octava - have a look at our Pro DSX as an alternative to JAP. Any questions about using our system in a Residential setting please shout.
See - PRO DSX 4K UHD over LAN - Video Matrix Switch . Video Wall Processor

Joe
 

edd666999

Well-known Member
So I've been looking at the 3G that does 4k but it's hard to find prices or sellers

Should this system be used on its own closed network? Would it effect data speeds if you used the same switch for other tasks ect?

And just to make sure I've got this correct. If you have more than one tv it doesn't matter what it supports be it 4k or just 1080p, you won't have a problem unlike HDbaseT where it will use the lowest denomination?


From what I've seen prices are around £400-500 per TX and RX. Theres WyreStorm NetworkHD, The octavia system above and blustream I've found.

You're going to have to call suppliers for prices as its mostly profession stuff so they generally speaking dont make prices public.
 

Member 319784

Well-known Member
The way in which Just Add Power works is to have the network traffic in VLANS. So it’s effectively on it’s own private network. Therefore the traffic doesn’t effect the speed of other network traffic in the switch.

With regards to lowest denomination, no that's correct, each receiver has a scaler built in so it can downscale and upscale as required for each TV.

I've sent over a quick message but as mentioned if you wish to get pricing etc for Just Add Power products please do get in touch or visit our installer network and we'll be able to put you in touch with someone who can help.
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
one of the reasons I've been looking at Just Add Power stuff, is that you can pickup odd bits off ebay to test, and build out your own system. my only problem is that it's fine plugging everything in, but how do you control it? and how do you setup the audio? I want to have centralised amps, but realise that the amps are still only going to be dedicated to each TV end point, so still have to run wire to the speakers in those rooms. do you have another Octava/JAP receiver driving the amp and pair up the TV and AMP receivers? or run another HDMI(ARC) line or audio out co-ax/fibre from the TV back to the amp in your centralised A/V rack?

I've been a bit disheartened as talking to "my local re-seller or sales representative", they seem to loose interest as soon as they realise I'm not a "high net worth individual" who can just write off paying over a hundred pounds an hour per guy to throw some cat6 around my house. Not to mention the actual "number pulled out of the air" for the cost of the kit itself.
Then another re-seller got just plain rude and sarcastic when I was asking for a break down of the parts required, and that I wasn't going to rip out all of my head ends and go wall-to-wall with 4k TVs and dolby atmos thoughout the house - obviously all bought from them.

just giving advice doesn't pay the bills for them and I get that. But from my experience, most companies are not setup to cope with people who are not into dropping tens/hundreds of thousands of pounds/dollars without blinking.

that octava system looks all well and good, but again, I'm not doing a full install. just bits as and when I have the time/energy/money.

I currently just have four TV endpoints with 5.1audio, as the kids aren't old enough to want TV in their bedrooms, and I've still not sold the wife on the need for TV in the kitchen yet - so I will need some room for expansion later. TV is via SKY multiroom atm. SKY-Q I don't think delivers enough for the money/subscription cost.

I have another family friend's company doing an over view of partial full fit out - not just of A/V but of aircon+airsource heating/cooling, solar + onsite energy storage. as i'll do most the data/AV cabling and infrastructure myself, I just need the core system. so hopefully that'll be a more fruitful partnership...

sorry for the story, just my experience and thoughts on the matter. To surmise, we can buy bits, how do we use these bits? :D
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
System Design - always happy to have a look at your plans and give out advice where we can, at some stage 'advice' may become chargeable :)

Octava Pro DSX - we have basic control via a URL built in and lots of options for iOS, Android, Web or third party if that is a better fit for you, we also have routed IR on the system.

Octava Pro DSX - you can purchase a single TX/RX if you wish to start with a single connection.

Joe
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
Hey Joe, thanks for coming back on this :) I appreciate the chargeable aspect! :D

I think the basic foundation is, am I driving at the right idea? is there something else out there? is this a realistic starting point? the mind boggles.



going back to the actual starting point of the thread, with the JAP stuff, the 2G wants about 120Mb/s+ (mega bits), the 2G+ wants a bit more; iirc ~200Mb/s+, and the 3G+ running 4K wants about 500Mb/s+. a good solid switch should have enough internal "non blocking" bandwidth to run all its ports at full duplex simultaneously. so a 24port gig switch should have 48Gig of "non blocking" internal bandwidth; 48 port - 96Gig etc. etc.

if you've just got some cheapo 5/8 port jobs out of maplins or staples I can't vouch for it but you should be good if that is all it's doing. But just think about your uplinks if it needs to pull its data from somewhere else, and deal with anything else. I have a 48port job in the garage doing all the heavy lifting for the house. then I have four ports on the switch mapped as a single 4Gb/s trunk to a switch in another building for the stuff in there, and then 2gig trunks to switches at each of the TV endpoints as I've not brought evening back to a central physical location yet.

having said that, I've got a few small £20/30 netgear switches in rooms and I've not really had any issues with them not handling full wire speed transfers.

from what i've seen, a "proper" commercial AV install runs IP-A/V over a separate network than data. or at least over a separate VLAN. VLAN capability is easily available with basic HP procurve and Cisco 19" switches you can get off ebay.
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
DIY - we do have a few Residential customers with the network skills to take the DIY route and combine our Octava kit with all manner of network switch gear and configurations.

Turnkey - most of the systems we supply/install will include a CISCO SG300/500 PoE switch and def on Corporate/Sports Bars we stay 'stand alone'.

Joe
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
OK cool, so you're more open to a bit of DIY from the client's point of view. certainly more open than any Control4 resellers round here. :D

so, with the Octava kit, what is the control point? it has to be as wife friendly as possible! looking to integrate into an OpenHab panel on some old Ipads as part of heating/cooling/lighting/ etc.
Sonos seem to have made a mistake discontinuing their remote control, and relying on the phone app as the control source. so that means to turn up the volume on your stereo, you have to find your phone, unlock it, open the app, probably wait a bit while it gets itself together, then adjust whatever it is you need to play with. everyone I know with sonos kit; was scouring the 2nd hand market for their remotes a while back.
the wait is the thing that killed the squeezebox stuff for me. pick up the remote "please wait" on the screen. click next track "please wait". list tracks. "please wait"

how do you run your audio? do you have two Octava receivers, one for the TV and one for the AMP? or run an HDMI connection or something back to the amp from the TV carrying the audio out? - If that's the case, do you have/know of any single input 5.1/7.1/dolby atmos amps, as for this job most of the features/ports on an A/V amp are going to be redundant...?
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
Control - we, Octava Inc, are not looking to provide an integrated Control system, instead we make it simple to control the Source to Zone selection which you can then integrate into any number of DIY 'Control' systems.

We often provide systems/support to folk using iRule/On Control which you integrate as a system using Global Cache IP hardware - everything is then controlled from any number of iOS/Android devices.

On larger/more complex systems we, TMF, use Crestron.

Audio - usually we are managing a 'Cinema' Zone with multiple TV Zones.

In-Zone - ARC enabled AVR's or Soundbar's is the usual configuration for your TV Zones.

Joe

PS SONOS - now works with the iPhone 'locked'.
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
ok that makes the most sense. why drop another lot of cash on another IP receiver when the Amp is effectively locked to the TV's output anyway...
what's the longest HDMI lead you've run, or would you use HDMI over cat5/6 extenders once you get over 30 feet or so?
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
also, in your opinion, is it worth putting an xbox on a transmitter either for games or BR, because, again, it's going to mainly be local to that TV it's sat next to?
 

Joe Fernand

Distinguished Member
AVForums Sponsor
HDMI

1080p - copper cable, 15m Max

2160p - copper cable, 8m Max

2160p - 8m+ Fibre Optic in the main Cinema room.

2160p/1080p - CAT6 to all secondary Zones.

Game Console - makes more sense to have them as a local Source in relevant Zones.

Joe
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
oh hey look, doing a search on this and it's a forum thread I was involved in years ago!

anyway, reason I was looking for info was I've just pulled the trigger on some JustAddPower kit. (not arrived yet, but suitably excited) - you lot probably all saw the ebay auctions, and at those prices I couldn't resist.
couple of transmitters and one receiver - I figure I should be able to build something out of this as a test.

now these J+P boxes are their gen2+ version, and have serial+USB rather than I/R.
serial to I/R adapters usually point to IRda, which is i guess not what I want.
but they have HDMI CEC passthrough. which should be enough to control a sky box instead of I/R? word on the street is that the rs232 on the back of the sky box is output only.

I've found something else which is a serial adapter box rs232 to the skys's RF2 port or RS232-comms port for more recent sky boxes (non Q). Is this a thing that other people have found they've needed? these things have Crestron support as well via 3rd party add ins.
(Dusky Control - Take control of your Sky digibox)

anyway, back to the J+P stuff.
I know there is going to have to be some kind of "controller" front end needed to run all this - but they claim to be able to work with "home assistant" (Home Assistant) so am also pratting about with that - throwing jelly at the wall and seeing what sticks.
also hoping I can get away with not running a "supported switch" (Cisco=$$$).
So yeah. we'll see if I need to setup separate vlans for this gear.
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
Ok so the gear is here! do a little dance to the god of new toys.
so looking at JustAddPower's config tool, their recommended config is one of their recommended switches Cisco or lumix(?) or something, and the way they seem to lay it out like this (let's do a 6x4 matrix layout for example):-
port1 standard (uplink to rest of network)
ports 2-7 assigned to transmitters on a separate vlan
ports 8-11 assigned to the receivers - again, on this previous separate vlan
all remaining ports left for standard network access.

you can config the transmitters and receivers to on their own individual subnets, all grouped into their own subnet, vlan'd off however you so desire.

in order for HDMI CEC controls to work across the network, from what I figure, they are translated into a telnet session between the transmitter/receiver with telnet commands being available to do volume up/down, on/off, channel change etc. were applicable. Also then whatever you have as the controller, is able to then inject CEC control commands to either end.
problem is, to set this up you need to have a static route setup between your main network and whatever you've got setup for the JustAddPower VLAN/subnet. now, my Cisco5510 has been powered off since I switched to PlusNet from BT (public static IP for a fiver!), and I just "can't be arsed" to re-configure it, and as time goes on, more stuff "needs configuring". Now, the standard plusnet rebadged BT hub5 won't do static routing, and it's been so long I can't remember the password on my HP procurves and can't be bothered doing a full system reset to reset the password, and reconfiguring everything else from scratch.

So, to avoid static routing, gateway configs etc, and due to laziness and to avoid general annoyance in learning about these things; I've setup my JustAddPower gear to all sit on the same subnet as everything else, with the devices having static IP's. advantage being that I can plug a receiver into any network point in the house and it will get video - without having to do any re-patching on the patch panel. also, can connect to the web config page of the devices without having to re-config my PC's network connection either on the PC or switch side.

the primary reason I figure JustAddPower like to go for the VLAN'd approach is to not impinge any bandwidth constraints on the rest of the network. Bandwidth from what I've read, not as tested (yet) is ~150Megbits for FullHD with multichannel audio, and ~600Megabits for full UHD 2160+ dolby atmos - I don't have any 4k kit bar an Xbox1s, so no loss to me there. These numbers are purely what I have been lead to believe from documentation - not actual testing. Now from what i figure, on a switched network this shouldn't be a problem, but if the transmitters are set to "unicast" (default is "multicast"), then you may have an issue with a lot of receivers pulling say, one transmitters stream bandwidth, then multiplied by number of receivers = total network fabric switching capacity reduction. Or at worst, the resulting multistream bandwidth aggregation on the single uplink port from the transmitter could choke. But this is a bit of a guestimation on my part involving two parts ignorance, and one part stupidity in relation to the field of networking.

Serial link is also interesting. there are three modes.
1. "Dumb" - whatever goes in at the transmitter end is relayed to all receivers connected to that transmitter.
2. "Guest" - a slightly more intelligent to and fro going on between points.
3. "Super" - this is as listed, for "experienced engineers / controller interaction", and their "Flux Capacitor" IR-transmitter for source control.

So, JustAddPower Things to consider.
1. network config. I havn't hit any bumps in the road yet for latency/glitching with it all on the same subnet, and I've got my "plug in anywhere, get my TV/xbox/PC/media player" - but it is early days for me on this journey. however, lots of things seem to be pointing to needing to talk to the switch to actually do the switching between the receivers and transmitter units - hoping to avoid this but if it comes to it, a Cisco SG350X-24 is what, £150?.
2. power config. i don't have POE switches, so the cost of buying POE power injectors, and the extra power supplies/mains sockets used up and both ends, vs actually buying a properly supported POE capable switch in the first place... hmmm maybe my procurves could do with an upgrade...
3. controller setup. from what I've figured, you'll need some form of controller. The JustAddPower boxes aren't just an HDMI and I/R "IP extender", and you can keep using your normal remote - just you've managed to stuff your sky box in the garage. you've actually got to have a think about what you want and how you want to go about it. The control system deals with your TV endpoints, your video/audio sources, changing the channel, volume up/down, etc. all of your remotes swapped for whatever interface you have to your controller's core. So there is that extra cost/timesink to consider there.

however, the flexability of the many to many IP system is what i'm after/suckered me in, so i'm going to put some effort in and see if a "higher end" solution actually delivers, instead of the constant stream of disappointment that I've so far had from consumer level kit that feels as though it's been made to a standard of "just about good enough" so long as you don't want to push the envelope and do anything crazy - like have a totally clean wall mount install with no boxes everywhere... or not just limited to the length of an HDMI/cat6 cable. If I get a VPN setup between my parents house and mine and I had the uplink bandwidth (roll on FTTP), they could have a receiver at their house!

anyway, sorry for the story - just what I've found so far, hope it's of some use to someone
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
quick update, found this. it's old, but explains a few things I didn't know otherwise:-

Just Add Power’s HDMI Over IP Solution Explained

so the transmitters are "always transmitting" IP packets...somehow, (to what?), if they have a video signal - no matter what is connected or not. Plus have a scaler built in that pretends to be a display device that can cope with whatever input is being fed, be it 480i/576i/720p/1080i/1080p at 24/25/50/60fps. they then always output the IP stream at 1080p60.
The receivers also have a scaler in-case they are connected to anything that is not capable of the full 1080p60, and this allows video wall capability.
So the display switching is so fast due to the video stream already being active, and the source device only having to negotiate display capability's with the transmitter it's already connected to. The final endpoint is always fed a 1080p60 stream, and the receiver takes care of the actual display device - so that's all done and dusted in a "once on power on" for both the
Source <-> Trasmitter then Receiver <->display, handshake that doesn't need repeating.

Also, IGMP - Internet Group Management Protocol. Not something i'd heard of before just now and probably bears some looking into, as from the sounds of this, is what allows the receivers to do the actual switching between live/active streams...

The gen1 JustAddPower kit looks like it has IR transport. but I remember the reason I jumped on the Gen2 bandwagon was the Gen2 stuff was the kit that supports multichannel audio. Gen1 if I recall, was stereo audio only. damn, now I need to see if the Gen3 kit does IR to see if I've jumped in the pond too early! :facepalm::rotfl:
 

darksun9210

Standard Member
ok, so the network was actually having a little whinge as depicted by das blinken lichten on every endpoint network switch going off like a frikkin strobe light jammed "on".
fortunately everything was still working fine, just file transfers took a hit. able to replicate about around a 15Mb/s (megaBYTES per sec) drop in file transfer rate per video stream active on the subnet. switched off the sky boxes, and everything calmed down.

So yes. those transmitters constantly broadcast to every frikkin port on their subnet/VLAN. switch control I imagine is needed to point said receiver at said transmitters vlan.

Gonna have to Vlan those transmitters to keep everything sociable on the network. looks like i'm going to have to factory reset my switches after all as i still cant remember the admin password; to be able to get in and:-
1. set the vlans like I should.
2. set the static routes like I should.

it seems the recommended setup is one VLAN per transmitter, starting at X.X.11.X for the first, and going x.x.12.x for the 2nd, x.x.13.x etc etc.... as i'm going to end up with 8 transmitters, at 150mbit per device, that's 1200megs of constant stream - no way one subnet is gonna host that.
and one Vlan to host the receivers :- X.X.10.X seems to be do-able.

so much for cutting a corner. live and learn....

as for control, looks like "JustAddSoftware" co-developed with J+P to do a control system "Media switcher".
Just Add Software | MediaSwitcher
i'm not sure how "family friendly" the endpoint controls are going to be but there are remote control options with the standard licensing package onwards.
1. "lite" license, $160 core functionality and control, limited to 8 sources and 12 screens but control only from media switcher itself as far as I can figure.
2. "Standard" License, $500, 16 by 16 input/outputs, adds "preset", "image pull" (live preview/save in the application), remote control and automation. - this'd be something I could probably stomach for a residential install. sounds pretty perfect to my mind.
3. Pro is a $1000
4. Enterprise is $1800
and "video wall control" for an additional $250
also includes "media buttons" for endpoint control, and "media command" CLI.
but there is a 30day free trial, so when I've got everything laid out, i'll activate that and see whats going on - plus it lists HP as a supported switch type so "woohoo" on that.

also smacking my head against the brickwall that is homeassistant - but suspect I just need to suck it up and buy a rasp-pi to run the damn thing instead of python-ing it up in a VM.
 

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