Question Judder sensitive: LG 55E6V vs. Sony 55XE9305

Discussion in 'What Is The Best TV For You?' started by PsyQ, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. PsyQ

    PsyQ
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    I'm intrigued by OLED because even after years of LCD, I prefer CRT and plasma. I'm also quite sensitive to judder. This seems to be a bad combination.

    Trying to check out OLED TVs, I found that every store that has LGs on display here will have them set up so dark that all shadow detail is lost even in the official LG demo clips (chess figures, planet with craters, bearded guy in a robe). I asked a store person and she said that it's impossible to change any settings during the demo run and they refused to hook up any other sources. So I just can't get any sense of these TVs.

    The proper stores I called that would let me try different sources don't stock these "cheap" LGs at all, only the higher-end models, but I don't want to reach any conclusions based on those.

    Next to the 55E6V I saw there was a Sony 55XE9305 that cost exactly the same and looked much better with the store demo, so I read up on that one:
    • XE93 is said to have excellent motion out of the box without much (any?) interpolation as well as wonderful brightness. The major problem seems to be haloing, and lag with 1080p content.
    • E6 is said to suffer from judder and require careful TruMotion tuning. But yay OLED.

    Content

    I plan to play mostly 24 fps UHD Blu-Rays and regular FHD Blu-Rays via a Sony X800. Then there's UHD HDR 30/29.97 fps (?) material from the TV's Netflix client, and a bunch of older files via Kodi. I don't care about AndroidTV, it would be fine to hook up an external streamer for Kodi.

    I'm guessing that Dolby Vision will not be important for me as long as UHD Blu-Rays and Netflix series generally include HDR10 (?).

    Room situation

    The room is easily darkened and I could put bias lighting behind the Sony to compensate for haloing if necessary. My viewing angle will be straight on and the room can only seat two people, so tight angles aren't a problem.

    Goal and budget

    I would like to have something that plays judder-free with as little processing as possible, that does a good job at 24fps, 29.97/30 fps and that has solid blacks and good shadow resolution. OLED would be extremely intriguing in this regard, but I think it's clear why I'm a bit reluctant there.

    I have about EUR 2200 - 2400 to play with, and both TVs cost EUR 2200 here (Switzerland).
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2017
  2. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    You really need to determine whether the motion of an OLED is good enough for you or not.

    Whilst LCDs and OLEDs natively rank about even for motion judder, they do not for motion blur, with the OLED being vastly superior.

    But it doesn't end there, to reduce motion judder many LCDs use frame insertion. Separate to interpolation that induces soap opera effect, frame insertion does not and it can increase your perceived motion.

    So that leaves you with the choice of finding motion without turning on any insertion options acceptable or needing to find a television that supports frame insertion.

    The only OLED I am aware of to date that does is the Philips 901F. But its a 2016 panel and although a great TV for SDR, lacks decent HDR.

    If you widen your choices to LCDs then the 2016 Samsung KS series tv's let you enable only frame insertion alone.

    Sony tv's have frame insertion too, but to use it to its most effective you also have to use slight frame interpolation so they induce very slight soap opera effect.

    I realise you have tried to get a demo of each tv but there really isn't anyone who can tell you which motion you find acceptable. There are many people who go from Plasma TVs to LCDs and don't notice a difference, there are those that go from Plasma and OLED and state the motion is the same.

    The numbers don't like in tests though and Plasma remains the king of motion, being able to draw much more on the screen at the same time. LCDs can match it with frame insertion and the Philips 901F OLED too, but apart from that you are always going to get inferior motion performance.

    I wrote about it before here: Time to replace 9yr old Panasonic 42" TH-PX70?

    Its worth noting that interpolation isn't necessarily a bad thing as you can turn it on and off for sports, but the nice thing about having good frame insertion is its a switch and forget setting.
     
  3. PsyQ

    PsyQ
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    Ah hah! Thanks for bringing up frame inseration. I poked around a bit and it seems that the XE93 has oodles of brightness to spare for that.

    The HDTVtest review says they were able to get 1080 lines with just a tiny bit of SOE like you say. So if I understand correctly, I might get pleasant motion with little or no further processing and just black frame insertion, and with no judder at all. I think that'll be mostly what I want. I can tolerate a tiny bit of SOE if it means smooth slow pans.

    I believe the LG starts around 300 lines of motion and needs TruMotion (though I don't know how aggressively) to max out at 600-something, and the TruMotion thread has so many opinions I don't know what to think anymore. Everything from bad artifacting to no problems at all.

    But ultimately I think I could live just fine with BFI, I do want HDR and thus I'm likely to go with the Sony. Stores here don't take TVs back just because you don't like them, so the next chance I get to try OLEDs is in 10 years or so even if this choice proves wrong :)

    Thanks a lot for the information! I'll read up a bit more about it but I think you already gave the deciding push :D
     
  4. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    LGs truemotion is purely interpolation. If you feel like you need better motion then unless you go for the Philips OLED I mentioned you are limited to LCDs.

    Overall I think the Panasonic DX-902 represents better value than the Sony XE90, its a 2016 model but has much better local dimming vs the Sony. It also uses frame insertion like the Sony. Panasonic's implementation isn't as good as Samsung's but you can use it without any SOE at all.
     
  5. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    Just seen its the XE93 over the XE90. DX-902 is definitely the best value compared to those.

    XE93 is a strange one, its a higher range LCD than the XE90 but its edge lit. Not sure its worth the extra at all for that alone really.
     
  6. PsyQ

    PsyQ
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    I wonder if the XE90 with the X1 (instead of X1 Extreme) can still do the nice basic processing that they have on the X93. I saw for example that the XE93 does debanding a heck of a lot better than e.g. the Samsung KS9590 and possibly better than the XE90. Here's the Samsung KS9590 on the right vs. XE93 on the left:

    Sony 65 XE9305 (XE93) im Test, Bildvergleich...


    No chance of Dolby Vision with the XE90, though I'm still not sure if I need that. It would only be a letdown if certain UHD Blu-Rays offered only one or the other, but if all of them have HDR10 and some just have DV on top, I could survive. I'd certainly prefer a direct-lit LED, though the XE90 seems to have fewer zones for dimming and also suffer from some haloing.

    I tried to find those Panasonic models but it seems no one still sells them in Switzerland. What I could get around the 55" mark is:

    • TX-55EZC954 (too expensive at ~ 4200 EUR)
    • TX-58DXC904 (foot probably won't fit my TV bench, but willing to buy a new one if this set is the most fitting otherwise)
    • TX-58DXW804
    • TX-58EXW784 (this foot looks fitting :) )
    • TX-85EXW734 (dito)
    • TX-58DXW784 (foot problem)
    • TX-55EXW604
    And some lower-end models after that are under 1000 EUR, I think those might not be worth exploring?
     
  7. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    There is no competition in that video between the FALD KS9500 and Sony XE93. The XE93 is an edge lit tv, yes, probably one the best edge lit tv right now but the KS9500 is a FALD TV.

    Whilst the local dimming on the edge lit XE93 is good for an edge lit tv it is still edge lit meaning you will still suffer less exact highlighting with HDR, this can clearly be seen in high contrast scenes in the video where the Samsung looks a lot better.

    If you can get the KS9500 on a deal similar to the price I have seen some in the UK it would be a bargain, its only surpassed by the Sony ZD9 in quality.

    Both the Panasonic DX-900 (902 may be the UK variant which may be why you didn't see it) and the KS9500 if pricing is similar to the UK should represent far better value vs 2017 models.

    Its like buying a car, the mark up of a new model, especially so close to release is very high, better value can often be found by buying a year before.

    Model numbers are slightly different in Switzerland it seems and supply lines don't seem the same as here either.

    Apart from the OLEDs, none of those Panasonic TVs can be really compared if you are looking at tv's previously mentioned. I haven't seen reviews of the new EXW8 range (EX-8 in uk) but for some reason it looks like Panasonic are sticking to their guns like last year and not trying to compete with other brands for HDR performance in the mid range price category.

    Video processing wise I really wouldn't worry so much about it, every tv will be good. I don't think Sony's video processing is better than Panasonic or Samsung. They are all good. I also don't think there is much difference between X1 extreme or standard or even standard and no X1. Most of it is marketing blurb.
     
  8. PsyQ

    PsyQ
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    It's sad that the KS9500 is curved, but it would've been above my budget for now anyhow. If they put out a FALD one that's flat at some point, that could be my next TV.

    But meanwhile very interesting things happened: I bought an OLED55B6V for EUR 1550 with tax. I realized I don't need the E6 because I have an external audio setup.

    I also swore off the edge-lit TVs they had there, including the Sony. It didn't look as convincing in the flesh anymore next to some others, and it showed pretty heavy shadowing right around the frame on the left and right side. I suppose this is because of showroom settings with all brightness to max, but still. The FALD models they had didn't seem to have this issue, neither did the OLED ones. Also, the viewing angles are quite bad on that Sony. I think I didn't notice in the other store because there wasn't enough space to step away and to the side.

    Whole story is this: I didn't expect anything from the salespeople at the discount store, but the guy here was pure gold. He said they're doing clearance on the B6 because of the 2017 models. I mentioned that the blacks look too excessive in the demos though and he's all "oh yes, I know! Here, take these USB sticks with lots of better demos from all sorts of brands, take this remote, do whatever you want with it, I'll be over here if you need me".

    I found some TruMotion settings that I can surely live with. The demo material was mostly 30 fps so I'm not sure if this carries over to 24, but I'm hopeful. I also managed to grapple some shadow detail out of the set that was lost with the default settings, and that was with just 5 minutes of fiddling in completely unacceptable lighting conditions.

    This is the first time a salesperson has even let me touch the remote, so I hope they credit the sale to him.

    Moral of the story:
    1. I might not be as sensitive to judder as I thought I was, or TruMotion is better than I feared it would be, or I'm less bothered by it than other people. I can't figure out what opinion to have on this anymore, only that it didn't bother me.
    2. Some discount store salespeople are fantastic and I hope they get the credit they deserve. Would be even nicer if we still had competent hi-fi stores, but I suppose that era is gone.
    3. This set is so cheap that even if it turns out to be a mistake, it won't be 10 years until I can afford the next try.
    4. I have to keep an eye on FALD developments.
    5. I have to keep an eye on Panasonic, which was nowhere near my list (I was going Samsung, Sony, LG).
    Thanks a lot for all the information. I might post in the owner's thread or in the TruMotion one if I come up with something that hasn't been posted already, but this forum is like a pack of wolves when they tear apart some tech issue. They've probably already covered all angles.
     
  9. Dodgexander

    Dodgexander
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    Great to hear, sometimes it just turns out that way and you never really know until you have the chance to demo the tv in the flesh.
     

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