Japanese Govt. announce 7680 x 4320 HD 22.2 ch sound broadcast standard!

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by KeanosMagicHat, Jan 15, 2008.

  1. KeanosMagicHat

    KeanosMagicHat
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,553
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    England, UK.
    Ratings:
    +553
    The Japanese Government have just announced that they intend to deliver 7680 x 4320 HD with 22.2 channel sound as their domestic broadcast standard by 2015.

    They're calling it Super Hi-Vision.

    They have called together a group of private companies and are providing the resources to make it happen.

    Incredible stuff !!!

    http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/14/33-megapixel-super-hi-vision-ultra-hdtv-could-be-on-the-air-in/


    PS - Note to mods, perhaps there should be an HDTV news discussion forum as I couldn't really find the best place to post this. I think it's fairly big news but chances are it'll get missed by most members here.
     
  2. NicolasB

    NicolasB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2002
    Messages:
    6,675
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Location:
    Emily's Shop
    Ratings:
    +1,046
    Hmm, not so much "home cinema" as "home IMax" - they're talking about a screen with 100-degree viewing angle. That's roughly a 16-foot screen with a 9-foot viewing distance. :eek:

    That would certainly make you lose your balance. :rolleyes:
     
  3. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    6,595
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +920
    This is NHK's system formerly described as Ultra HD isn't it? It has horizontal resolution 4x that of 1920x1080p and vertical resolution 4x that of 1920x1080p - i.e. 16 times the resolution of a 1080p image - at a 60 frames per second frame rate.

    It has been demoed at a number of venues over the last year or two - initially with the cameras and displays close together but more recently they have used fibre circuits to send the pictures over greater distances.

    ISTR that it needs around 22Gbps for uncompressed picture carriage (around 1000 times the data rate used for compressed BluRay) - and will probably need to use 60-70GHz satellite technology for broadcast?

    Initial demos did, indeed, cause some viewers motion sickness issues - just as iMax does. ISTR that these may have used large area projectors, whereas they have now recently demoed smaller LCD panels (still huge!) with the same resolution - though I don't know if these caused the same motion issues.

    Not really a surprise that NHK in Japan are kicking this off. After all they started their research into what became the current, widespread, 1080i standard in the late 60s - some 40 years ago - and were close to being able to shoot HD at the 1980 Moscow Olympics. They did shoot HD at the 1984 Los Angeles Olympics - I saw the results at IBC in Brighton sometime around 1990 (when Sony had setup HD projection gear at a local cinema) NHK launched an HD broadcast service to the public - using the same production standard with an analogue transmission system - in the very early 90s ISTR.

    The fact that they are looking as far ahead as the next 10-20 years may mean they are ahead of the game again.
     
  4. KeanosMagicHat

    KeanosMagicHat
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,553
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    England, UK.
    Ratings:
    +553
    For comparison purposes, I guess it would be the reverse of the UK broadband situation where we are waiting for the home broadband ISP's and the UK network to increase speeds to that which many people's technology is already capable of.

    In contrast the Japanese, should they meet their target date, will no doubt find that the standard domestic broadcast signal is of much higher quality than their home equipment is capable of. Also it would be higher than the vast majority of the population would need given the size of the display required to get the most out of it.

    Still I know which situation I'd prefer as downscaling retains picture integrity.

    The UK has a long way to go.
     
  5. markygfaebburn

    markygfaebburn
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Location:
    Blackburn
    Ratings:
    +1
    why aren't our government like the japanese!?!?!?
     
  6. NicolasB

    NicolasB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2002
    Messages:
    6,675
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Location:
    Emily's Shop
    Ratings:
    +1,046
    Because the Japanese actually take responsibility when something goes wrong?
     
  7. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    6,595
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +920
    Countries usually end up with the governments they deserve. The whole way Japanese society functions, and the commitment of employees to their companies is totally different to that of the UK, Europe and much of the rest of the world. Similarly the relationship between state, employer and employee is very different.

    (Tiny example. If you go to any Police box in Japan - they have them - in the evening, they will lend you $20 to get home safely. You just go into another police box and replay it. There is implicit trust that you will do this - because almost everyone does. Totally different culture -totally different government.)
     
  8. thegeby

    thegeby
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2004
    Messages:
    539
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Ratings:
    +211
    This would translate into around 480Mb/s for transmission at 50fps, if you take BBC HD 15 Mb/s as a current benchmark. Quite apart from the issue that this would obviously preclude terrestrial distribution, it would seem to be at the limit of cable technologies (Coax, USB, even gigabit lan) or UWB. Do we have any idea of how it would move from reception point to the decoder, which as Stephen notes is outputting 22 Gb/s and would probably have to be integrated in the display?
     
  9. Phill1978

    Phill1978
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2004
    Messages:
    2,045
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +84
    yea but if we hadnt slowed down we could be world leaders still and they havent slowed down and never were and almost certainley never will ;)

    sorry im patriotic ohh and i dont wanna work 13hr days
     
  10. Chiba Cowboy

    Chiba Cowboy
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2008
    Messages:
    431
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Oxford
    Ratings:
    +18
    Not regarding WWII they don't ;)
     
  11. hutch

    hutch
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2006
    Messages:
    6,660
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Perth, Australia
    Ratings:
    +1,224
    :eek:
     
  12. alpine101

    alpine101
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,152
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Ratings:
    +109
    Telegraph Business headline today:
    'Japan teeters on brink of crash'
    The country has been in economic gloom for around 10 years now. SuperHD looks more like a slightly feeble attempt to kick start their economy again.
    (Mind you, our country's been in economic gloom for 10 years too, just living off borrowings...)
     
  13. oasisnut

    oasisnut
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,330
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Ratings:
    +27
    [QUOTE
    (Tiny example. If you go to any Police box in Japan - they have them - in the evening, they will lend you $20 to get home safely. You just go into another police box and replay it. There is implicit trust that you will do this - because almost everyone does. Totally different culture -totally different government.)[/QUOTE]

    are you serious?
    have you been and done this? ( not that i dont believe you, iam just curious)
     
  14. RugbyAl

    RugbyAl
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    546
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Ratings:
    +354
    Google "Nanking massacre" to see how wrong this is. This was one of the most horrifying events this century, and still denied by many 'esteemed' Japanese historians and politicians.:(
     
  15. NicolasB

    NicolasB
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2002
    Messages:
    6,675
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Location:
    Emily's Shop
    Ratings:
    +1,046
    I was thinking more about individuals and about CEOs taking responsibility for the actions of their companies. If a train runs severely late in Japan the CEO of the train operating company is expected to appear on the platform to apologise to passengers in person; what are the chances of any British company director doing that?
     
  16. acid007

    acid007

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,301
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Rural Warwickshire
    Ratings:
    +210
    :eek: truely astonishing!, the audio specs are just amazing (22.2 ch)

    they were demoing 4k tv's at ces, the japs are proposing a broadcast standard of 16k. mind boggling stuff!

    We are so far behind................
     
  17. RugbyAl

    RugbyAl
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2006
    Messages:
    546
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    66
    Location:
    Yeovil
    Ratings:
    +354

    True, strange culture the Japs.

    Anyway, back on topic! 22.2 ch :eek: I had trouble with 5.1 ch from the wife!
     
  18. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    6,595
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +920
    No - am studying japanese, and my japanese teacher mentioned it.
     
  19. Last.2.Know

    Last.2.Know
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2006
    Messages:
    7
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ratings:
    +0
    I was crossing a quiet street in a very sleepy part of Japan and was told off by a Policeman in his Police box for not using the designated crossing - there was NO traffic!
     
  20. picotto

    picotto
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    93
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    11
    Location:
    Jersey, Yes the rock!
    Ratings:
    +9
    I remember last year or year before reading about the satellite network they were testing to enable this. I'm sure they were talking of 50gb through put speeds for it to keep up with the 24gb data rate. Either way its going to be interesting to see how they are going to sell this one to the public. We still need to get fiber put in to houses first really.
     
  21. KeanosMagicHat

    KeanosMagicHat
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,553
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    England, UK.
    Ratings:
    +553
    It is astonishing isn't it ...... glad someone turned the conversation to include the audio too. Some speaker setup that'll require.

    When will be able to call this our broadcast standard? My bet is never, someone will perfect 3D telly before we in the UK get our act into gear.
     
  22. KeanosMagicHat

    KeanosMagicHat
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2005
    Messages:
    4,553
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    England, UK.
    Ratings:
    +553
  23. Yemeth

    Yemeth
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    5,102
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Hedeby Island
    Ratings:
    +993
  24. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    6,595
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Ratings:
    +920
    Yep - though the Aussies and the US have a pretty dated and inefficient system based on late 90s RF and MPEG2 technology. DVB-T2 with H264 - which we should have for Freeview by 2009 (hardware by 2010 probably) should be more efficient - though if Ofcom have their way they will reduce the quality to sludge by trying to shoehorn 3 or 4 HD channels into one mux...
     
  25. Gae

    Gae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,267
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +39
    I can just see it now. If BBC HD ever start transmitting in this format many years from now the conversation will go something like this....Duh, they have the audio flagged at 22.2 ch but are only broadcasting in 16.2 ch!! :mad:

    :D

    Gae
     
  26. Gae

    Gae
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messages:
    1,267
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +39
    I have an interesting theory about HD and audio and the future of broadcasting.
    I believe that what broadcasters and we, the audience, are striving for is an audio visual environment on a par with our "real" view of the world through our eyes. Does anyone agree? It seems that the Japanese Government's format of 7680 x 4320 HD and 22.2 ch appears to be getting closer to that goal or may have even reached it already. With the re-appearance of 3D and its possible development in the future perhaps they will all merge and creat a broadcasting world that is almost as real as life itself?
    I believe we adapt to new technology and our eyes and ears eventually become used to each new format, even noticing flaws and the limitations of the image after a while. Much as I love HD, I am already aware, when I watch something on a large projection screen, that it could still be even better and is not perfect yet in comparison to how we see the real world.
    The future of broadcasting and its development alongside other things like 3D and/or holographic imagery, will certainly be very interesting to say the least...like something out of a Sci-Fi movie. :smashin:

    Gae
     

Share This Page

Loading...