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Jamie Bulger all over again?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Setenza, Jun 1, 2005.

  1. Setenza

    Setenza
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    Just found this news story:

    Children arrested for murder

    If this pans out, expect a media circus. Expect Blair to cash in. Expect there to have been a massive social service failing. Expect the parents to blame the schools. Expect the likes of the Daily Nazi and David Alton to blame TV and cinema. Expect a BBFC crackdown. Expect a massive circle jerk with an enquiry and a report. Expect the same thing to happen again in the near future.

    I'm off to cry over the sorry state of the world. Humans, mutant primates that need replacing!
     
  2. overkill

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    With you all the way Xusia. Just not sure how hotairblair can benefit by cashing in? Surely this would be a govt 'hands off' case? Still, feel free to fill me in.

    What a World when kids that age are up for the attempted murder of a five year old? :(
     
  3. Setenza

    Setenza
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    I'm sure it will be further ammo for Mr Blairs quest to install "respect" among the great "disrespectful". Yes, ASBO's and children in luminous bilers suits; that'll solve years of social isolation, collapse of the nuclear family and decline in educational standards.

    Enough, this is not a Blair rant.

    There is something very wrong with a society that breeds children capable of this. I see now evidence of this happening in other European countries.

    I bet when the facts come out in this case, in the weeks to come, we''ll find all the usual danger signs flagged up, and the same old story of how nothing was done beforehand.
     
  4. vonhosen

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    But did it happen 50 years ago, only you didn't get to hear about it because of the way the media was then ?
     
  5. overkill

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    Not sure about that one, and definitely sure about this one:-
    Have a look at some of the old assizes and court records and quite shocking crimes (in local areas) come to light. The difference was the medias agenda back then was not so focused on making things worse (bad news sells papers) not better.
     
  6. SILVERBACK

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    im just glad its the little fella isnt dead,what the hells going on :mad:
     
  7. chard

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    I do think there are differences - one main one is that younger people in particular are less aware of 'consequences ' of bad behaviour.
    Bad behaviour either goes unpunished in todays society , schools, family etc...or it is so ineffective that it is not a deterent.

    Youngsters are not respectful of parents never mind teachers or police officers. Today they threaten to sue teachers or police who try to restrain them ! Teachers are regularly being sued and suspended over often trivial matters.

    Society needs to take a stronger stance against wrong doers - a zero tolerance to smaller wrongs which can reduce the likelyhood that things can get as bad as this dreadful story.
     
  8. Marc

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    sorry to be disrespectful, but child's play being unavailable for so many years due to an incorrect newspaper report ****** me off intensely, so hopefully this time around they'll all say they were copying stuff from the movies of uwe boll. if anyone's movies deserve a ban then his do!
     
  9. Kopite4Ever

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    was shocked and appauled at this. if it was up to me they'd be locked in the chokey for a damn few years...and the further more after that. think at 11, 12 you definatly know whats right and wrong.
     
  10. vonhosen

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    I agree in most cases.
    It is however the prosecutions burden with children aged between 10 & 14 to show that they knew what they were doing was seriously wrong.
     
  11. HMHB

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    I wonder what the parents of these kids are like ? If they are anything like the scumbag parents of unruly kids around these parts then I say let them to the time for their kids crimes as well. I honestly think that a lot of them have not given their children a clue about what is basically right and what is wrong and ignore them most of the time. Then, if anyone says anything to their kids, out comes Mr Hard Case to threaten everyone to not mess with their family. After a little strutting around in the streets (like the dog from Tom & Jerry) they go back in to their beer, fags and telly ;)
     
  12. la gran siete

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    What comes across to me is that too many people have poor child rearing skills . If wee bring our children up badly we can hardly expect them to turn into little angels . Having said that exacting harsh punishment on the blighters solves nothing and in fact would make them worse. Many people demanded such treament of the Bulger two but the authorities took the right cause of action by institutionalising them and in effect doing what their parents failed to do .Now they lead anonymous lives and, presumably, are not inclined to commit further crimes . To me thats a positive.Looking at the wider picture I dont know what the answer is , maybe there arent enough resources , maybe we need better social services , maybe school teachers should recieve better support. If thats the case then we'll have to cough up more in taxes.I know one thing for sure looking back( canings floggings austere regiomes) will provide no answers.
     
  13. Ethics Gradient

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    not quite correct - while I agree that the the other factors you mention:

    Lack of respect, the letigeousness of todays society etc

    - that children - and especially teenagers have always been 'less aware of consequencies'
    Many studies have shown that teenagers have a problem with cause and effect - in that they don't consider the consequecences of an action automatically when that act.

    For example, a teenager may throw a snow ball at another teenager riding a bike down the road:

    the thought that the 'victim' could fall off his bike and go under a car would not have entered the mental process.

    the same goes for snowballs and windows .... thats not to say that some teenagers didn't actively 'want' to break the window, some or potentially all do, but it doesn't follow that all definately did simply because it happend.

    It appears through the studies that the attachment of 'action - consequence' to reactive thought is not present until later in life.
    My personal hypothesis is the link between hormonal inbalances during the teenage years combined with an imaturity of the brain.
     
  14. Rock Da Bass

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    Sad, horrible story. Glad he's still alive.

    RDB :(



    PS Comments like this are bit out of order IMHO:

     
  15. Jenn

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    On the news a few weeks back they were asking if teenagers (and I guess children) are more out of control now than they were years back (I think 20 years or something) and they came to the conclusion that it's actually the opposite. Teenagers and childrens are "better" today, but it seems we are just less patient than our parents and grand parents were.

    I do not remember if they were talking of "small" problems like theft and yob behaviour or if they included more serious crimes like murder.

    Anyhow it's beyond me how a 12 year old can think about killing a child. It's mad...
     
  16. SanPedro

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    Some truth in that. My own 2 who are a similar age to those involved often do stupid things, without realising the consequences - like playing with matches or climbing on high walls, playing sword fights with sticks etc. But some these, although potentially dangerous, have never involved trying to hang a small child from a tree. This exhibits a far more deliberate act that would be well known to be dangerous.

    CL
     
  17. GalacticaActual

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    Although I do not wish to make light of this situation, I must agree with one of the first posts in that,
    The government will debate this and nothing will happen.
    The bbfc will crack down on "violent video games and films" and nothing will change.
    Busy bodies will go on programs like this morning and richard and judy, proclaim what a terrible place will all live in nowadays and how this would not have happened in there day, and still nothing will change.

    You need a licence to drive.
    You need training for jobs, even if you are flipping burgers for a living.
    You go through all sorts of checks in your life for loans and applications for morgauges.
    And yet anyone can be a parent and be intrusted to raise a child to an exceptable standard.
    It is a strange world we live in :(
     
  18. Mep

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    I agree, people that would stand no chance of being allowed to adopt children or even take home a stray dog from Battersea are able to have kids.........but I don't think the alternatives are very pretty either!
     
  19. too_laid_back

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    How can they not know it was wrong :eek: an rope round an 5yr, leaving burn marks!!.. any jury would send them down..

    Bring back caning @ schools!!!... will teach them a thing or too :devil:
     
  20. mrtbag

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    The area where the attack happened is renound for kids hanging around drinking alcopops and smoking.
     
  21. too_laid_back

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    OK.. All kids try a few puffs.. some of the old folks booze... we have all done it :D , but trying to hang someone.. that is crazy crazy mind :suicide: to think of doing that instead of getting drunk!
     
  22. Setenza

    Setenza
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    I was 12 in 1979. I was more interested in climbing trees, than hanging infants from them.

    We now live in a society were people know that there are no major consequences to any form of abhorrent behaviour. So if you have a disfunctional or poorly developed moral compass, then there's nothing to stop you from doing what you want.

    No one is going to punish you in an adverse way. You'll still get fed, clothed, taken out. Infact you'll probably get more one on one quality time with an adult than you get already.

    Christ, for some people, state intervention and custody offers a better lifestyle than you have already.


    I fear it will get a lot worse before it gets any better. For a lot of people, a group of children even as young as 12 are now nothing more than potential muggers, rapists and murderers.
     
  23. overkill

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    There are. Prisons, which contrary to the 'no-one gets punished' view are overcrowded, and at present we have our biggest prison population ever. Teachers still have sanctions to deal with unruly children. It's up to the headteacher to enforce them. Too often they don't.

    The biggest problem is that children are expected to grow up too fast, are therefore more self aware than they ever were, and as such are reluctant to accept authority from an earlier age. Caning etc will not work now. It wasn't working when I left school, and, by my brothers generation if it was used, it was liable to earn the headteacher a punch in the face. It did.

    We need to let children be children again and grow up in their own time. They are at school by 4 and into full education by 5. No wonder they're fed up with it by 16 and sick of authority by 11. In Europe they join school much later, and have less problems (with regards education) as a result.

    I know this will be shouted down by certain people, but hey, that's just my view.
     
  24. Mr.D

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    12 year olds are still not entirely reliable when it comes to deciding right from wrong and excercising good judgement. The full facts of the incident have yet to come out but I haven't yet seen anything that suggest they were trying to "string up" the 5 year old in question.

    Sounds more like a prank gone wrong at the moment (tried to tie him to a tree or something). Not particularly pleasant or forgivable but somewhat different to deliberate attempted murder.

    However as with the parasitic triple teen age benefit scrounger mothers from last week I'm sure the press will pounce on it with gusto at a time when the main headlines are about the Dutch voting habits on the EU constitution.
     
  25. Ethics Gradient

    Ethics Gradient
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    I dont' want to directly comment on those accused atm - as we don't really have enough info.

    As I said in my post, some deliberately do a particular action becasue they want a particular consequence. Its not that they are totally incapable of connecting action to reaction ... its just that in many cases, they are not considered.
    Example: a teenager may with malice of forthought send a shopping trolley down a hill into a busy main road to cause a crash because they wanted to cause a crash.
    another teenager may perform the same action, because they wanted to send a shopping trolley down the hill or even they just got fed up with holding onto it .... without having remotely considered or wanted to cause cars to crash.

    Its very difficult trying to work out what the motivation was - and alot of us adults assume that because we can see the consequences, that the children / teenagers could and therefore they acted with malicous intent.
     
  26. Setenza

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    Unfortunately, a lot of children want the perceived benefits of adulthood but not the responisbility that goes with it.

    How do you prevent a child from wanting to grow up too soon, when the media and lifestyle of the nation ram it down their knecks 24/7

    It's like nuclear weapons, the technology and theory is out there and you can't uninvent it.
     
  27. overkill

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    I quite agree Xusia. The thing is then, is to try and deal with the problem positively rather than with knee jerks that make great press, but don't actually achieve anything long term.

    Perhaps more time spent with parents (full stop) would help. By the time you've got them out of wetting the bed (no, not all kids get out of that by 4), they're at school, and open to peer pressure far earlier than we were. It can't be good, unless you're lucky (very) and all the kids come from parents with the time to spare instilling a caring and well rounded behaviour pattern in their kids.

    It's not just "chavs" kids that behave badly either, any child that has low parental input will not respond well. In terms of discipline so called 'chav' kids have more often than not recieve a harsher (brutal?) regime than most kids from "decent" backgrounds. Threats of physical violence mean nothing to them, as they've been sworn at and wacked silly since they were in nappies.

    As a result they have no parental respect, self respect, or respect for others. That's the culture we need to change - and quickly.
     
  28. too_laid_back

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    But shouldn't the discipline start at the school level :lesson:

    I know when i was at school.. chattin away, not really paying attention, the teacher would chuck the chalk rubber at me head :rolleyes: If you where always getting in trouble, then the cane.. Now days, the teacher can't do anything, without the kids complaining about abuse etc.. :nono:

    Am sure most of us, did not turn out too bad with a little 'teacher' discipline in school.... :)
     
  29. overkill

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    Ditto. However, by the time the next year came thru, and by what was then the 3rd year, we ignored several teachers no matter what they did, one teacher who used the ol' chalk rubber got beaten unconcious for doing so by a pupil in the year below, while the cane served purely as a creator of bragging rights, and it's deterrent effect (I speak from experience) was less than nil. All this in a 'good school' that was oversubscribed. Times change. That also shows, how, as someone pointed out in another thread, the media chooses to make headlines out of what was once considered non-news. Nowadays, that sort of behaviour would have the Daily rant up in arms.

    It's up to parents to encourage discipline and good behaviour - not the school.

    I think some good points have been made about Teenage behaviour. It hasn't really changed either. I know we did some pretty stupid things at that age, not as far as these children, but pretty dangerous and foolish just the same.
     
  30. la gran siete

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    It's up to parents to encourage discipline and good behaviour - not the school.


    I'd agree but so many of us havemt the right parenting skills .Its like we are not taught how to raise kids correctly and then we are expected to do so . I watch mothers yelling at their kids who play up because they want attention and its the only way they can get it. These kids grow up to be yellers themselves. I remember as a child being told " children should be seen and not heard" meaning we havent a voice or an opinion worth listening to do. The atmosphere was always austere.
    Flying back from Argentina I was sitting in front oif a young Argentine couple with 3 /4 year old girl. I remember thinking " Oh no this one is going to start crying in a short while". She was, in fact, as good as gold.The reason being her father constantly chatted to her in a sort of child like manner for whatb seemd like two hours . I found it quite cringemaking because I wasnt used to it( just not British!) but it worked for she fell asleep for the rest of the flight. It got me thinking that maybe we just dont like kids much and regard them as a bit of a nuisance, bar them from public places ( most pubs) send some to boarding schools, plonk them in front of the telly ,dont give them quality playtime, yell at them adinfinitum, dont read them stories, get drunk in front of them etc. I'm generalising of course and I know families who do a thoroughly good job where the kids are the centre of attention; parents, grandparents aunts and uncles all share in the process of care.And it works for the kids are well centred .
    The question is how does one reverse the rot?How do we teach people to raise kids?Actually there are one or two programmes on the tv about that and the methods suggested are not aggressive or confrontational but require a change of attitude and quite a lot of selfdisciplne on the part of the parents. Seems to be possible
     

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