I've seen enough, SD on LCD is scandalous!

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs Forum' started by merlinski, Apr 30, 2007.

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  1. merlinski

    merlinski
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    I've been looking at a 37PX70 today vs a few LCD screens I've spent months worrying about quality of standard free to view on for the girlfriend, and the quality of other standard def material.

    Well let me tell you I'll not be looking any more - have you seen the amazing quality of SD on Panasonic px70 vs ANY LCD (and I mean right up to £2000+ Sony X2000 bravias, from Regza sets)?

    I'm sorry but I simply cannot believe people put up with it, it is - a scandal! I could talk all day about why, no coax on shop floors so you can't see before you buy, only showing HD or demo footage etc etc - but I was worrying all this time about spending all that money to take a viewing quality DROP on SD and now my weary mind is totally at rest.

    I know what I'm buying, I've seen it today, and I am excited as hell without a doubt in my mind.

    Again, scandalous.
     
  2. fatfingers73

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    Well pleased with SD on my new Sammy, enjoy your screen burning purple snaked Panny. :smashin:

    Sorry, still wrong forum though.
     
  3. londoncruiser

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    I agree, I went to the sony centre the other day. Their sonys looked great with a hd input from a media centre. But when i asked them to switch the sky onto sd bbc1, it looked a pile of horse [email protected]?t. Plasmas aren't perfect yet but still much better with sd. Lets see what the new pioneer 8th generation will look like. But the rest are just scandalous.
     
  4. Silver Serpent

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    Oh for God sake, it's common knowledge that instore setups are rubbish in general because the feed is split between so many sets and the TV's aren't even calibrated properly.

    It shows both your inexperience in the field by judging TV's by instore set-ups.

    Plasma's will generally have better SD perfomance anyway due to their lower reslution, i.e. 1024x768 on most plasma's compared to 1920x1080 on a Full HD LCD.

    But a Plasma set at that resolution only 'barely' qualifies for the HD Ready mark, and in some countries it doesn't even.



    :suicide:
     
  5. ijd

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    well the sd on my aquos, admittedly supplied by a sky hd box is superb,hd is of course better but as i bonus after installing HD the SD pictures become much cleaner, just proving it is the source and not the panel that makes all the difference.
     
  6. jason g

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    was the sony feed u saw an analogue one?
    ive got the sony 46x2000 and through freeview its top notch and the hd is fab too, sometimes sd looks crap because the way its been set up in stores etc.
    i agree through normal anologue on these tvs and others are crap, but i cant fault the sonys freeview part, which to be honest i thought may not look good but i was wrong.
    totally happy with my sony.:thumbsup:
     
  7. ijd

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    lets not also forget, it depends on the signal broadcast i have seen some analogue signal that look far superior to digital images of low compression.
    I think it is all to easy to blame the set because the images being viewed are broadcast of a low quality, that is not the sets fault but the broadcasters
     
  8. Gedd

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    I have a non known branded LCD which the PQ is pretty much exeptional and with the help of my Panasonic upscaling not just my DVD but my SKY and Freeview...makes it all the better....got to say for what it cost well happy...Just hope you got some double lined black curtains to add to your new purchase mate.:D
     
  9. BName

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    lets not also forget, it depends on the signal broadcast i have seen some analogue signal that look far superior to digital images of low compression.
    I think it is all to easy to blame the set because the images being viewed are broadcast of a low quality, that is not the sets fault but the broadcasters

    ^^^ i have to agree with that, i think most lcds get the blame for bad pq when it comes to bad quality signals etc thats not the lcds fault but the broadcasters. Just give a lcd a desent picture quality and its better than crt.
     
  10. ElvisLives

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    I got my Sharp Aquos, and the PQ on SD (sky) was good. It looked a little less vibrant than on CRT, although i wasn't bothered really as I made a jump from a 26" CRT to a 42" LCD. Well, yesterday I messed around with the picture settings a bit more, and now I can honestly say that it is breathtaking. Some things look better than others obviously, but watching BBC 2 yesterday was amazing. A little picture tweaking can go a long way.
     
  11. DrugstoreCowboy

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    I don't give a monkeys, the LCD wasn't bought to watch crappy SD material, I still have a decent TV for that.
     
  12. merlinski

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    To be sarcastic for a moment, it's common knowledge that the excuse "oh that's just our coax aerial splitters sir" is BS!

    The crummy effect we are talking about here is caused by something I have only experienced in LCD sets.

    I'll stand corrected but I really would love to see some screenshots/photos of these fabulous SD feeds on an LCD, perticularly on the built in Freeview in a Samsung R88/R87 or even a WLT68, or even for that mater - a Sony high end set! Because I have viewed, even in peoples homes after trying to tweek them, that rubish PQ. I mean, we are talking in EVERY store I've been into, EVERY home - yet even uncalibrated plasmas seem fine, without tweeking! Even on the same coax splitters the LCD's look pap on!?? I honestly wish I was wrong!

    PX70 is devoid of purple snakes by the way. As it is almost devoid of buzzing, and fan noise. If I were to nit pick I could talk about dead pixel allowances, black levels etc etc - I'm not bothered about all that - I'M BOTHERED ABOUT MY INVESTMENT DOING WHAT IT SAYS IT DOES ON THE TIN TO EVEN A DEGREE OF ACCEPTABILITY!

    I would absolutely LOVE to be proven wrong because I actually love the look of the Sammy R88!!! But so far it has looked garbage with SD and I have to accomodate my girlfriends SD viewing as well as my own.
     
  13. madmaxII

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    horses for courses you buy what you like and what is acceptable to you.
    lots of people are more than happy with SD on LCD lots of people aren't.
    your money your choice.
     
  14. Silver Serpent

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    You are showing your inexperience once again asking for images of SD on LCD's.

    You can never judge how good a set is by a picture. You have to see the actual set working/in motion to see what it is really like. I could post a picture right now of my LCD with an SD feed and fool you into thinking it was HD.

    Also, you seem to be talking about SD mainly here. If that is going to be your viewing then you shouldn't be looking at either a Plasma or LCD, but going out and buying the best CRT you can get, as nothing beats the SD image on that :suicide:

    The SD on my LCD is great, but I intend to feed it as much HD as I can.
     
  15. merlinski

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    I am showing my inexperience? What in gods name are you flapping on about?, I couldn't care less if I had experience or not - MY EYES have 30 Years experience in distinguishing what looks good and what looks effing garbage! And until MY EYES are shown something good on LCD my BRAIN will continue to think LCD screens as a technology have something wrong with them as far as the internal freeview goes in comparison to that found inside Plasma screens. If I were viewing ONLY HD then I wouldn't be that bothered, or if I didn't have a girlfriend who will be watching Freeview - then I might entertain LCD. Ironically my partner has INSTANTLY commented on how crap they look on Freeview and she is the LEAST AV EXPERIENCED person I know, that's how much your experience counts for. :hiya:

    Oh please, oh mighty experienced one, bless me with your insight. Do you think for one moment I have come to this conclusion after not viewing any sets? I have spent the last few months visiting friends who have new LCD sets, visiting stores and specialists - and not once, not even by fluke out of the hundreds of sets I've seen, in and out of stores, have I ever seen a good freeview signal. Surely the odd one should have jumped out at me?

    If they were that good, nay, even just 'OK', would they need all that tweeking and messing around with just to get them to anything like watchable - come on!?!? When the one I've seen today on all settings looked fine.

    The settings are for adjusting your viewing preferance - NOT for fiddling around trying to make it look barely OK or acceptable.
     
  16. KevRuss

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    you do realise the 37" panny is a plasma....or should I get my taxi now:D
     
  17. merlinski

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    Yeah, lol, thanks though.

    But hey if you are getting a taxi can I hitch a ride over to the plasma forums?

    I only posted in here because I have been quite annoyed over this scenario and the headache it has given me trying to find a good set in the face of it all for the last few months, just thought I'd vent and perhaps, maybe even get someone to prove me wrong?
     
  18. SILVERBACK

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    i have to agree with the OP.i have seen lcd`s from the early days of the general release for home sets and the pic quality has improved a hell of a lot from th e old days BUT they still arent right for SD.now lcd might be fantastic for people who only play 360`s/ps3`s and sky HD but for SD viewing you cant beat a plasma imho.my viewing is 60% sd material and the rest is made up with 360 and i do own a 360 hd dvd player but dont get the full benefit because i own a pana pw7 plasma.im about to make the leap into 1080P (when the choose to release the PZ range of plasmas) and i thought its been a while why not try a lcd viewing at my local specialist.now like i said its been a while since i seen the early lcds an the sony X2000 was glorious with 360 and HD material but put sky on and its a very different matter.i went to a specialist aswell not currys and the pic was set up nice etc but the sd material was just wrong.untill HD broadcasts become the majority then i cant deal with the picture i get from lcds.

    p.s i did view another lcd which was samsung but cant remember the model number.
     
  19. IanSimmons

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    I have been waiting for SD to improve on LCD as I, too, will not be using games (not interested)/Sky HD (against my principles)/Blu-Ray (too expensive, uncertainty of BD vs. HD-DVD) etc. for some time. However if Freesat ever starts providing HD material using the kind of bandwidth that won't be available on terrestrial transmitters till 2012, I might be tempted to jump.
    Till I see this improvement I'll stick to my venerable CRT, but will read these great forums with interest in the meantime.
     
  20. rickbruce

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    i hope to have atleast a partial solution winging its way to me from the trading section, in the form of an old iscan pro that i originally intended for my crt projector but have realised may just do the job for my new Hanspree JT that i bought in a moment of weakness.
     
  21. bollopox

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    Yep I agree that SD is awful on the majority of LCD's. This is the main reason I am waiting for the new 100htz Philips to be released (whenever that will be). I think then the SD will be of comparable quality. As for the statement of Plasma SD being that 'great' is also something I wouldn't entirely agree on. I have a m8 who has just spent £1500 on a Panny 50" plasma and I was thinking the SD quality was average at best and not as good as my 10 year old Philips 100htz CRT. Basically to spend that much and be getting worse quality than a 10 year old TV does not make sense to me. But then it does look pretty on the wall I suppose. One thing I will say though, my xbox 360 and ps3 looks a million times better on my cheap HD LCD 27" than it does in SD on my CRT Philips, the difference really is immense!:D
     
  22. chrissyman

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    SD looks great on my 32 S series bravia after a fair bit of tweaking mind,
    but to be honest if my trusty old 32 wega had not gone tit's up i would still be watching that!.

    be carefull with that px70 tho merlinsky,my m8 just bought the same set 37 '
    and it had a huge crack all along the the screen,been laid on its side in transit.

    lovely tv' it would be my choice too, very nearly bought one.
    just put off by my m8's experience,he's still battling to get it replaced/refunded after 2 weeks
     
  23. gizlaroc

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    Who did he buy it from??!!
     
  24. TranceFan

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    Merlinski - you are right - I researched tvs for 4 months before buying my Fujitsu and couldnt find an LCD that would display an acceptable picture in SD. Having said that, no display can make ITVs p1ss poor picture look good!

    I really wanted an x series, but these are overrated with motion blur, still not plasma beating blacks etc. As a least a third of my viewing is SD, I needed a display that was good at SD and outstanding in HD. 1080p was largely irrelevant, as 720p is optimal on a 50" at 10 feet.

    Maybe the upcoming Fujitsu Aviamo LCD will turn the tide?
     
  25. rondha

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    The reason LCD is crap because the top-brands have never done the development them selves. The development in LCD is done by the third party or outsourcing. Unless Samsung, that really does it's own development, and more, Samsung does the development part in the joint panel production with Sony.

    Even Bravia is made in Taiwan

    http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/Industry/N4T4L3D7?page=1
    http://investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/news/newsletters/0059.html
    http://investintaiwan.nat.gov.tw/en/news/newsletters/0067.html

    While the top brands of Plasma (the three musketeers Panasonic, Pioneer, Hitachi) claim that their plasma panels are made and developed by their own inhouse manufacturing, NOT by outsourcing or third party.

    http://www.plasma-lcd-facts.co.uk/myths/production/

    On the other hand the LCD top brands outsourcing to Taiwan is a strong indicator that people should look at product made and developed by Taiwan directly. It's about their people capability, their knowledge, their research and development (certainly not Malaysia or Singapore or others). Previously I was sceptical.

    The reason I bought LCD is because my room is too bright (too much ambient light), but I was never satisfied with the picure quality, especially the Halo problems in my sony panels.

    merlinski,
    sorry I could not be too much contra

    _
     
  26. Junglist_uk

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    LCD panels are not designed to display interlaced video, they never will display sd well, ever.

    all they do is show how poor the original video is, and if anything freeview and crappy ntl/sky sd is worse than the old analogue video. If you blow up pixels to fit those panels it will show you the true low quality mpeg2 compressed drivel that is nicely masked by a pal interlaced tv set.:) :)
     
  27. marcstang

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    The SD through the standard freeview receiver on my Bravia is good, but no comparison the the SD displayed by my upscaling V+ box though hdmi at 720p. It looks absolutely great. :smashin:

    Best investment I ever made.
     
  28. SILVERBACK

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    for SD its pretty much this.a good CRT will kill either plasma or lcd,if you want a big screen and your main source is going to be SD then its a plasma.if your a hd all the way man (sky HD,360/PS3 and blueray/hd dvd) then its an lcd.horses for courses people :) i personnaly think that plasma gives you the most balanced display myself,as a 36 inch crt will take up your lounge and pull your back out should you even think of moving it lol.and lcd just doesnt cope with sd material and plasma isnt as good as crt but is better than lcd for sd and you can have a big screen.

    like i said though the pic is glorious on the sony x2000 i seen via sky hd and the 360 but i`ll be damned if im getting taken deliverance style by murdoch again for a handfull of channels and some fudged HD movies.
     
  29. Analogue

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    A good PAL interlaced CRT masks nothing - the problem is that the LCD is not designed to handle this type of signal and depending on the panel and its electronics behind it either makes a reasonable attempt at re-scaling or not. (God I wish they still broadcast test cards if only for 10 minutes a day!)

    IMHO Sony Bravias and Samsungs are hopeless at this while Philips Pixel Plus sets do a reasonable job with Panasonic Viera (upto32" LCD only) probably not far behind LG Toshiba etc being in the middle. But if funds allow Philips Clear LCD has to be seen.

    I too have heard good reports of VM+ upscaled SD via HDMI as posted by marcstang. I have not seen this yet but I recently witnessed a comparative demo on several makes / sizes of LCD of SD via internal freeview tuners versus Sky SD via Sky HD HDMI connected boxes and the freeview on the high bitrate channels (BBC1 etc) was definitely better.
     
  30. merlinski

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    Can I just say that "LCD Highlighting just how poor the signal is" is also rubbish, I don't mean to be rude - but it's not just simply that - I understand fully how bad the signal is and how magnifying it onto a clearer technology screen both magnifies and clarifies the inferior signal - but too many people are falling for that as accounting for all of the crap SD image presented, chosing to believe it or chosing to lie, because in actual fact there is something physically wrong that takes quality away from a Freeview image.

    Whether it be poor tuners or the electronics - I maintain that current LCD screens are reducing the quality / not displaying the quality that is being broadcast.

    I swear that if you went out and looked at these broadcasts on the internal tuners on both technologies for yourself, not even too closely, it is really evident. Not slightly, but in your face obvious.
     

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