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ISF CALIBRATION Vs DVI OR HDMI

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Buying & Building' started by alwyn, Nov 30, 2003.

  1. alwyn

    alwyn
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    With the introduction of dvi and hdmi,will that make isf redundant,because of non adustment of both colour and tint using these connections? If so, it removes both the 434 and 504 from this type of adjustment,if one is to use this superior form of connectivity
     
  2. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello Alwyn

    Who said there wont be a calibration option on the 04 HDE via HDMI?

    Pioneer are actually working on a new software mode for these displays to enable two extra 'calibration' memory banks and adjustments.

    Remember when a display is calibrated the ISF technician does not work with the 'user' level software adjustments - you go into the 'hidden' engineering service menus.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  3. alwyn

    alwyn
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    Thanks for your reply joe,It was P anasonic who say that you cannot adjust colour or tint when using dvi. and they say this to include there advanced adjustments.I therfore concluded that HDMI would be simular on the pioneer.
    When you mention the new software Pioneer are working on for ISF,does that intend its use to include HDMI?
     
  4. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    ISF calibration is for GREYSCALE. This has nothing to do with colour and tint adjustment.

    Also why do you feel HDMI and DVI are superior? So far the evidence looks the opposite to me.

    I can calibrate my D6 Pansonics DVI input. I could calibrate my old 433MXE's DVI input. I see no reason why this should change with digital interfaces on future models other than the, already mentioned, undecipherable integrator menu in the new HDE's.

    It is possible to enter service menu in HDE's just now. If we had service manual a calibration would probably be possible. It's just s simple GUI that we are waiting on from Pioneer and the device manufacturers.

    Gordon


    Gordon
     
  5. alwyn

    alwyn
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    Gordon,I assumed they were superior,if you have first hand experience that shows otherwise I bow to your knowledge
     
  6. togad

    togad
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    I'm very intrigued by this comment.

    Whilst in no way doubting your pedigree in this sort of thing (nor having any doubt that at some stage, I'll probably be calling on your (or someone similar) services)...

    Would you care to explain what it is that makes you say that HDMI/DVI would be inferior to an analogue connection? How could additional Digital>Analogue>Digital conversions on the video signal improve a direct Digital connection?

    I'm no expert on video, but with audio, I have never come across a situation where additional D>A>D conversions actually improve the signal, so am interested on how the same could improve a video signal.
     
  7. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    togad, I think the key point here is "at present".

    For example, today...

    Analogue connections work with all kit and all software (specifically PAL content), whereas DVI (and other digital interfaces available today) do not.

    A well set up analogue connection will at worst equal, and quite often better digital connections available today; for a whole number of reasons.

    Tomorrow...

    HDMI will be a reality rather than a specification. After a while, the bugs will be sorted and it will connect with no issues -- and yes you will still be able to have screens ISF calibrated via the engineering menus.

    In the future HDMI may give a better connection than analogue, but digital interface is no guarantee of that today.

    StooMonster
     
  8. togad

    togad
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    Why "specifically PAL content"? Surely you're not implying that DVI/HDMI doesn't work with PAL content...
    So if I read you correctly (and apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick), what you are effectively saying is that because, currently, it is not possible to get into the engineering mode of a panel like the 504, it may not be possible to get as good a picture with the HDMI connection as it is with analogue?

    Seeing as you can't get into the engineering mode at all on this panel (currently), I still don't understand why you would expect an analogue connection to be superior.

    The only thing I could possibly interpret from the comments so far, is that a "properly set up" analogue connection on a panel where the engineering mode is available could well be better than a standard digital connection on a panel where that mode is not available - this, I guess, may make sense.

    I suppose I'll find out for myself tomorrow if, on a 504 without calibration, an HDMI connection from an 868 is better than the component connection. Naturally, I hope it is!
     
  9. Brogan

    Brogan
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    Some interesting comments.

    I too would like to try and understand why the analog component feed from an 868 to a 504 would be better than the digital HDMI feed.
    If that's the case then it would seem AV technology has just taken a very expensive step backwards...
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    as this step was always being driven by copy protection and not quality, why shouldn't it be a step backwards? There is no logic why it should be better, everone just assumed it would be better as it was newer

    HDMI may well be a great interface for the future but currently the is NO HDMI fully compliant product on the market. What is there is 'compromised'

    The products are compromised in other 'crucial' areas like de-interlacing. This makes a HUGE difference to video quality, this is why people spend so much money on their SIL504 equipped players. Now a SIL equipped HDMI player....

    I think we will start learning about what HDMI CAN do when the Merdian players hit the market which PROBABLY HAS decent scaling / de-interlacing.

    HDMI will really only take off when HDMI and DVI panels / projectors can accept 576p / 50 Hz signals otherwise we will just end up with the same 480p (NTSC progressive) only players we have had in PAL land. The displays need to grow up fast and are lagging much behind the players by some way. New panels may be launched that can do all this very soon but I doubt many 'old' panels will be updated (and there are lots out there).

    DVI was designed for computers and not region specifi DVD players.

    The pure digital link (SDI) that was demonstrated at The Event 11 will indicate the 'ultimate' quality you will ever likely to get with HDMI. It was compared with the £100 player component outputs. Most struggled to tell a difference, granted it was there and those differences are important to me (and many others) but differences elsewhere 'swamp' what we are talking aboyt here. This was very similar to the demo we did at the Event 1 with the £30k S and W scaler that most of us dream about. That was two years ago and HDMI still offers no improvements over what many have had for years, other than copy protection.....
     
  11. togad

    togad
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    Showing my complete ignorance here, but where is there any de-interlacing in the chain from an 868 to a 504 via HDMI?
     
  12. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    The player is doing the deinterlacing and sending this to the panel. With HDMI it does NOT have to be like this but is likely to be the norm, then Pioneer can sell you players with deinterlacer in and plasmas with deinterlacers in. Enterprizing manufacturers (like Immersive) are likely to produce HDMI players that output interlaced signals, now that could be REALLY good but no one is talking about that at the moment. This is one of the big 'unused' differences between DVI and HDMI.

    Cuttently thr 868 does the de-interacing and this just bypasses the deinterlacer in the plasma :( Neither of the deinterlacers are 'premium' ones
     
  13. togad

    togad
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    The 868 can output the following through HDMI:

    480p
    576p
    480i
    576i
    720p
    1080i

    Naturally I'm not expecting the scaler in a £900 DVD player to compete with a £1K or whatever external scaler, but I guess for those of us with this set up, it will be interesting to compare the de-interlacers on the plasma and the DVD.
     
  14. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    Yup, that is typically where we are, it starts to get interesting when you output the interlaced signals via HDMI but into a decent deinterlacer (just like the SDI concept), unfortunately not ever panel can take these inputs currently or are limited to the likes 480p / 720p, especially the DVI inputs (despite what you are told DVI is not the same as HDMI but a subset).

    The 868 to 504 HDMI combination looks like it does much of the connection bits right BUT it still uses non premium deinterlacing. This is the advantage of 'pure HDMI' (has to pass certification lab) but with the limitation of Pioneer building 'down to a price'. The other thing to remember is that the internal electronic of display devices don't always work in the manner we think they do, jsut like TVs :)

    Personally I think the scaler market needs to make sure it's DVI sockets are HDMI 'AWARE' at all resolutions, all these panels can all deal with 576 / 50 style signals and for me the way forward is the ability to do the deinterlacing elsewhere (HDMI 480i / 567i (and 1080i?) outputs). There is NO reason why someone couldn't make an ISCAN style product with HDMI inputs and outputs (for not much money) that would take the Pioneer system into killer league (assuming it hasn't cut too many corners with it non full compliance HDMI hardware). It is a damn sight easier to do in digital than analogue, infact I would love one of these but that brings me onto another idea

    With DVI / HDMI scalers / panel devices why not produce scaler 'companion boxes' that communicate (using HDCP) with the scaler / panel digitally but allows addition deinterlacing (like 1080i to 1080p) or SIL504 to be added to a scaler AND additional inputs as well? Is some one working on it yet?
     
  15. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Witnessed it myself in this excellent part of The Event II, and have to concur that there wasn't much difference between the component connection to screen and the digital one. Certainly not enough difference to justify current prices. :)

    StooMonster
     
  16. dxcgnoc

    dxcgnoc
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    hi i do not yet have hdmi connected , is it still worthwile getting calibration carried out or should i wait until i have a hdmi source , i have pioneer series 6 plasma display

    thanks
     
  17. Neil Davidson

    Neil Davidson
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    Source connection does not impact the ability of the calibrator to adjust these models to reflect the industry standards.

    Neil
     

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