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iScanHD+ and PWHD7

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by charker, Aug 24, 2005.

  1. charker

    charker
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    Hi there

    I have just been reading some other threads about using an HD+ with Panasonic displays and the recommendations for setting the output resolution etc.

    I have a 50" HD V7 panel and an iScan HD+ and I have set it up using, what is probably, the default(ish) settings. I have told it to output 1366x768 at 50Hz etc.

    Now I find that there will be no HD 50Hz HDMI for the V7 (not happy about that) so I am thinking how best to use my HD+ to get around the issue.

    I tried simply kicking out 60Hz on the VGA connector and the picture is less than impressive, I suddenly become aware of "slow" refreshes. What on earth causes that?

    Now when I read the threads, my aim is to output native resolution at a freq. it supports natively. OK, 1366x768 at 60Hz, but it looks crap, 50Hz is better on 50Hz material.

    What am I missing here?

    As a quick starter what output res should I really output because some threads seem to indicate that it is sometimes better to let the screen scale from a different starting point. From experience, what are the native freq. supported for this panel through VGA and HDMI that I should use.

    How should I best use all this kit to watch SKY HD when it arrives?

    Thanks for reading this far!

    Charker
     
  2. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    For the moment the best thing for you to do is have 50Hz and 60Hz resolutions (the res you are using is correct) running VGA to the panel. This actually gives to my eyes a better image than using the DVI input, plus you are not then limited to a 50-60Hz conversion (which can stutter the image).

    When HD comes you will want to get hold of an early box with HD component video outputs, run this to the iScan, and the iSCan to the plasma still using VGA. If you are faced with digital only connection on the HD box then I'm afraid you have no choice but to suffer FRC (frame rate conversion). So using the iScan to turn 720p @ 50Hz into 1366x768 @ 60Hz.
     
  3. charker

    charker
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    Thanks for the reply.

    I was playing with FRC whilst tuned into Sky Sports News with all the scrolling text across the bottom.

    Setting the 50Hz input to output 60Hz results in the scrolling text jumping across the screen 5 pixels at a time, not smooth at all.

    Is that normal? If so then FRC is a non-starter, it's useless.

    The "buzz" is that SKY-HD will only allow HD output on HDMI which means all V7 screen owners are screwed unless by some miracle it can be made to output at 60Hz. This is a ridiculous situation on a screen less than a year old.

    Charker
     
  4. charker

    charker
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    I decided to look for some info on SKY-HD

    It seems they are aware that many people will not have DVI so they will output on Component as well. They only support 720p@50 and 1080i@25

    A bit ironic really I watch SKY+ now over an SDI modded box but when I go HD I will go back to analog!

    Do you think 720p@50 -> 720p@60 might be better on the iScan than SDI@50 to VGA@60 is now?

    Bloody annoying is what it is, I could scream at Panasonic, why no HD-Ready HDMI "blade" for V7 plasmas it's .....argggg. I've a good mind to write to Sky and get them to hassle Panasonic to increase their potential customer base!

    Charker
     
  5. Piers

    Piers
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    720p@50 to 720p@60 is still likely to look horrid - some people don't seem to notice it but I do and I think you will.

    The lack of 50Hz support on the 7 series is, I believe, much more than a "blade" issue - the panel itself cannot do it.

    Having run HD into a PHD7 via component for almost a year and compared it to an SDI modded Sky box I can confirm that you don't need to be worried - analogue can beat digital in some circumstances!
     
  6. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    charker

    At the risk of repeating myself over and over again the 7 Series Panasonic range came before EICTA formalised the 'HD Ready' standard - the pressure on SKY to ensure they didn't dismiss a big chunk of its potential 'HD' customer base resulted in the YUV outputs being added to the spec for the first release SKY HD box's.

    I wouldn't think SKY will be overly worried that you have a Display that's only compatible with the SKY HD system via your Analogue (YUV) inputs - they have more than enough worries dealing with the thousands of SKY customers who bought Plasma TV's from SKY over the last year or so who cant get Digital or Analogue SKY HD signals into their new TV.

    FRC works for some folk and not for others and the results will vary with content and also with the hardware you use - though it sounds like its a non starter for you.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  7. charker

    charker
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    Joe

    I understand that the panel came before the standards but I, and I suspect a few others, bought panels with pluggable boards so that there may be some kind of protection against changing standards.

    As Piers states this panel may not be capable of accepting 720p@50 through any interface, in which case we are screwed. But, if it is then Panasonic should support it now the standard has arrived. It would be nice if they told us why they won't support it.

    From reading several threads it is apparent that what we really need is a digital input that takes 1366x768@50 and 60, then we would be laughing with our nice HD+ scalars. Not even the V8's do that.

    Are most people aware that FRC is a non-starter in many circumstances?

    I see many people recommending that V7 panel users "can always buy a scalar to do FRC for SKY". This is a large outlay to find it doesn't work.

    The words I got from DVDO are "The frame rate conversion is good but we don’t do infinite time space correction, so if the signal is not locked you will get a stuttering image most likely".

    What it does NOT have in the menu is

    50Hz -> Locked 60Hz

    which would solve the problem by the sounds of it

    Lastly I suppose SKY could have a choice to output 50 or 60, that would make them compatible with much more high-end AV kit.

    Charker
     
  8. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello charker

    The 7 Series Display will work with 720P@50Hz RGBHV and YUV signals via its Analogue (BNC or HD15) Inputs.

    The Limitation is with 720P50Hz and 1080i50Hz via HDMI or DVI - these Optional Input boards only work with one 50Hz signal (576P).

    The limitation with the 7 Series Display is within the Display and there is no modification/add-on to provide a Digital input with more 50Hz support.

    If Frame Rate Conversion (FRC) via your DVDO Processor is a non starter for you then an 'Interface' that enables 720P50Hz and 1080i50Hz Digital signals to talk to the HD15 or BNC Analogue Inputs is your best option - these are now becoming available.

    Panasonic provide the Input board options to give you a range of Input options - its not designed to make your Display 'Future Proofed'; where would it stop! Should first generation Displays be made 'HD Ready' too?

    Panasonic stated on these very Forums as far back as Jan 05 that there was no 'upgrade' path to 'HD Ready' status on the 7 Series Displays - I cant believe anyone who used AVForums as a guide to purchasing a Display in the past year could have missed the many discussions on this topic that arose when these Displays were first announced.

    Nothing DVDO (nor SKY) can offer is ever likely to fully resolve converting a 50Hz source to a 60Hz Output for all film/video material - I find I can use FRC (50>60)720P with some material and revert to a non scaled (50Hz) 576 signal for other material (sports especially).

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  9. charker

    charker
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    Joe

    I hear what you are saying but I did buy my V7 last November after several months of looking on these forums and waiting for the V7's. I had a 42" HD which "flashed" it's black levels and this was replaced/upgraded to a 50" in January.

    I'm not sure how general this info was from Panasonic but this retailer told me to wait before purchasing the HDMI board (in May) because there was the possibility that when the V8 board came out it would fit a V7.

    This retailer is well known to all readers of these forums, it's not Curry's :)

    Cliff
     
  10. charker

    charker
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    Joe

    On another point you raised. Why is 50 -> 60 conversions so problematic?

    I would have though these days that it was not beyond our knowledge that some kind of dual-ported "frame buffer" system could be developed where complete picture frames are constructed in memory and resampled.

    One side of the buffer constructs complete progressive 50Hz picture in real-time and a second clock reads the same memory to create an output at the required frequency.

    I imagine there would have to be some clever clock sync etc, but creating a complete progressive buffered image would allow any freq. conversion, it would be like pointing a camera at the original image and starting from scratch

    I work in computers and the tricks and power of some of these graphics cards now must be approaching the kind of speed and memory requirements to do this. Then again perhaps not :)

    Cliff
     
  11. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    I think answer can be put down to cost and nothing else. It's still a case of round peg, square hole when you are trying to stretch 50 frames into a 60 frame signal. Pro Frame Rate converters are practically indistinguishable when used properley, they are also priced at more than a 42" plasma screen if not a lot more...

    Regarding the newer HDMI boards - I'm sure the fact that the 8 series board *would not* fit the 7 was also published on the forum during the time when all was in the air about the 7 series board barely conforming to the HDMI standard. Guess that doesn't really help you now though!!!!
     
  12. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    Hello both

    I guess too that when you look at the size of the market that requires 50>60Hz conversion without the resulting artefacts currently seen on 'Consumer' Video Processors the hardware vendors would have to look at how much development time could be put into such a project.

    Worth noting too that whilst you can Install the TY-FB7HM (7 Series HDMI board) into the 8 Series Display it wont support 720P or 1080i at 50Hz; only the TY-FB8HM Board gives you that support.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  13. nicke20

    nicke20
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    with the dvi to vga converter (hdcp stripper) isnt this just now a moot point ?
    seeing as the panny on vga input is any frequency you desire and just as good picture wise as hdmi if not better ?

    so while not being hd ready it can play sky hd at native via the vga :D
     
  14. charker

    charker
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    On a slightly different point I was reading the HD+ manual regarding the input of HD (720p and 1080i) sources.

    Am I right in thinking that it will only scale 720p to 1366x768 for a digital input? It says something about HD sources connected to the analog ports is passed through but scaling on HD sources through DVI is performed. Have I read that right?

    So if I connect SKY-HD to the HD+ via component cables it just passes through and the picture is scaled by the plasma? Not much point having the HD+ really.

    It seems that to get any benefit from the HD+ with HD material I will have to connect DVI into the HD+ and output analog. Will it do that with protected material?

    Cliff
     

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