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iSan HD+ Bug: DVI from Denon 3910 to iScan HD+

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Eye in the sky, Mar 5, 2005.

  1. Eye in the sky

    Eye in the sky
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    I think there is a output problem connecting the Denon 3910 to the iScan HD+ via DVI. The DVI output of the HD+ is connected to the Panasonic 50PHD7 via the DVI board.

    The setup for this:

    3910: DVI on, set to 480P/576P, PAL
    HD+: output format set to 480P
    Panny: according to the DVI manual, 480P-60 and 576P-50 are supported, among some other timings. HDCP: Auto, Output: DVI (PC)

    When you play Stars Wars (eg) with this setup, all you get is a 1-sec flash of the movie on the plasma and all go blue screen.

    But when I set the HD+'s HDCP to OFF, I get an alternating 1-sec flash of the movie and 1-sec blue screen on the plasma.
    I then checked the HD+ Information page while this is happening, I can see that the DVI input does through a cycle of 'No signal', '576P', and 'Passthrough', this resulting in the 1-sec movie and 1-sec blue screen issue.

    Some of you might be thinking there is a DVI problem with the 50PHD7. But its not. Because I get picture when the 3910 is directly connected to the DVI input of the 50PHD7 and its over HDCP. 3910 settings: 480P or 720P or 1080i (on NTSC), 576P (on PAL). So there is no problem with the Panny DVI inputs and the 3910 DVI inputs.

    Also, there is no problem with the HD+ DVI output to the Panny via DVI. I have tested it with SKY+ at XGA, 480P, 576P. However it did not work at 1366X768P - 60Hz even though the Panny DVI manual said so. Different issue.

    So in conclusion, there is a problem with the HD+ handling a DVI input from the 3910. Or maybe there is a setting on the 3910 which I may have missed. Can someone from iScan help me out here?
     
  2. Eye in the sky

    Eye in the sky
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    To make things a bit clearer, the iScan HD+ bug I am referring to is the DVI input to the HD+ from the Denon 3910.
     
  3. Bernard Barnett

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    How about setting the 3910 to interlaced rather than progressive? The HD+ will do the de-interlacing anyway. I had a problem from my 3910 via progressive to my HD, switched to interlaced and the problem went away.
     
  4. Chris5

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    Bernars unfortuntely the IScan does not take interlaced input on the dvi input except 1080i, I think this sucks.

    Something isn't right though, I'm sure it is a fault issue (player, cable, or scaler) rather than a design compatability issue, else we would have heard a lot more about it by now from other users.
     
  5. Bernard Barnett

    Bernard Barnett
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    Hmm yes true, sorry I didn't spot that. It would however process everything bar hi-def through component in - have you tried that or don't you fancy it?
     
  6. Eye in the sky

    Eye in the sky
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    I have tried Interlaced from the 3910 to the HD+. That did not work.

    Yes, it works when I use components into the HD+ and Output using DVI-D to the Panasonic. But the component-in to DVI-out is not as good as direct DVI (3910 to Panny). I believe DVI (3910) to DVI (HD+) to Panny (DVI) is the best configuration for PQ. So I want to test this our and share my report.

    The main reason I bought the 3910 is to use the DVI.

    There must be someone out there with a similar setup and problem. Anyone?
     
  7. Bernard Barnett

    Bernard Barnett
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    Can whoever sold you the HD+ help? Failing that, MAW is probably your man - if he doesn't notice this thread maybe you could PM him?
     
  8. Dscapin

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    I have the same problem connecting the pioneer 868 to Iscan HD+ using DVI. My set up is as follows:

    868 HDMI out --->HD+ DVI in ---->HD+ DVI out ----> Sharp Aquos DVI in

    It does not work. I get a blue screen. The 868 to Aquos link works fine using a HDMI to DVI cable (ie, without the scaler in between). I also did some experimentation with different settings (480p, 576p, 1080i, etc.) but without any success.

    I emailed DVDO in the US but they are still looking at it.

    Currently I am using the components output of the 868 but as you all know the whole point of having a digital conection is to avoid uneccesary processing.

    Anybody with any suggestions out there? Let's hope all we need is a software update.
     
  9. PDM

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  10. Demon00

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    Yeah Ive got the Beta software in mine HD+ and so far it works just fine...
    I have connected my 3910 by DVI and output 480P and 576P to the HD+ and then 1080P out from the HD+ into my projector and it works very very nice..

    There are quite a bunch of new stuf in the Beta software ... Download the manual for the Beta at DVDO and read for your self..

    Cheers
    Daniel
     
  11. Dscapin

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    Before you got the beta sw did you have any problem connecting to HD+ through Denon's DVI out?
     
  12. PDM

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    The Denon 3910 (or successor) is still on my shopping list ;)

    Using DVD SCART -> RGBs to HD+ and then DVI into my LCD (same with Sky+)
     
  13. Demon00

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    No none at all.... have been working fine since day one... regardless of firmwares in Iscan and Denon.
     
  14. Dscapin

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    The 3910 has both HDMI and DVI outs while the Pioneer has a HDMI out only. Have you checked both HDMI and DVI?
     
  15. Eye in the sky

    Eye in the sky
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    Denon 3910 (DVI) -> HD+ (DVI) -> Panny 50PHD7 (DVI) works now.

    Initially you get a blue screen. To get it to work, you need to turn on your display first then the HD+. You may need to try turning on/off HD+ first then the display. After that the connection should work.
     
  16. Dscapin

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    ....tried different combinations of initialisation sequences with no results. Next, I am going to try a short (ie, 3m) HDMI to DVI cable (now I am using a DVI to DVI with adapter) just in case such a cable works. My only consolation is that going 576i (component) from the DVDp to iscan is (?) perhaps better than going 576p (DVI) from the iscan to HD (since the iscan does not yet support 576i over its DVI input). But still...
     
  17. lack300

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    hi eye.
    this is a simular set up to what i have the only difference being no HD+ scaler just using DVI out from 3910, direct to DVI in on 50PHD6, is there a noticeable difference to PQ from DVD source. also would it be any good buying the HD+ for my sky plus as some of the transmissions are quite poor.
    I am really after The best picture Quality i can from my Plasma.
    The reason i have not yet bought a Scaler is because i cannot find one that supports the Panny Resolution of 1366*768 or does this not matter.
    Please help. :confused:
     
  18. Eddy Boy

    Eddy Boy
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    One thought in the manual i think it states how it should me set to NTSC when using HDMI or DVI. The thought is what firmware is on the 3910. I think HDMI has been improved just encase it does DVI as well.
     
  19. Piers

    Piers
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    Hi lack300,

    The Lumagen range will do 1366*768 unless I am very much mistaken (as Murray Walker would say!).
     
  20. lack300

    lack300
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    Hi piers IYO is this unit as good as the HD+.
     
  21. Piers

    Piers
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    It doesn't have audio delay (which the HD+ does) but if you have an amp with global audio delay you won't need that feature. IMO it is more flexible than the HD+ though rather more difficult to set up to perfection. When set up properly it will certainly match, and I would contend, better the HD+.
     
  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The Vision DVI max's out at 1366X768@60Hz. The HDP and HDP Pro will go to 1920x1080@60Hz (actually higher but lets not worry about that right now).

    I've set up a fair few of these units with 50" Panasonics. In fact at the Scottish HiFi show last November Joe from the Media Factory and I had the first Gen7 50" in Scotland running native rate on an all digital signal path. So basically, to confirm Piers comments.....Yes Lumagen does 1366x768.

    Gordon
     
  23. lack300

    lack300
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    many thanks then a lumagen it is then. what model number do i need so i can go do some shopping.
     
  24. lack300

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    Do i need the DVI, HDP, or HDP PRO version
    gonna be running me Denon 3910 and Sky+ v1 through it only to my TH50-PHD6.
    Cheers "T".........
     
  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    If you go to my website on the front page should be a link to the differences between models. All you want to consider are the DVI and HDP. HDP is bascally more futureproof. Feel free to contact me if you need more advice or want to know who your nearest dealer is.

    Gordon
     
  26. Joe Fernand

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    Hello Dscapin

    In no particular order:

    DVD player firmware - it may be worth ensuring you have the latest Firmware.

    Splash Screen - when you have no disc in the player can you see the on screen graphic and set up menu; if yes your problems are most likely HDCP related.

    DVD Player Output - your player can only Output one Interlaced Resolution (1080i) on its DVI and HDMI sockets once its has the Multi Region update.

    DVDO - have you updated to the latest Firmware?

    DVDO - it may be worth asking 'Eye in the Sky' for a run down of the Output timings he's using; even if you have the Horizontal and Vertical timings looking correct the various Sync timings related to each output signal on the DVDO may be causing issues with the Display.

    Cable - you should have a 3m DVI cable supplied with the Panasonic DVI board.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  27. charker

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    lack300

    I have a 50" V7 Panasonic Plasma and a HD+.

    For best SKY pictures I have done the SDI mod and had an SDI card fitted to the HD+. The Program Guide is now rock solid, like a photo! If you get a good signal from SKY (no laughing....) the picture through SDI is amazing, it has a 3D look to it. If only SKY would transmit good pictures and stop penny pinching on bandwidth!

    The HD+ has a menu for output resolution, you just pick 1366x768 from the menu, it doesn't get much easier. I find the HD+ pretty easy to configure, it's all done from on screen menus. It also has "test patterns" built in, which you use to setup to plasma (brightness, size, position, pixel mapping 1:1 etc) and then all futher tweaks are done through the iScan remote, you never touch the plasma again.

    Charker
     
  28. Joe Fernand

    Joe Fernand
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    lack300

    Definitely the Lumagen VisionHDP - plus you'll require 1 x SCART>4RCA cable for your SKY+ box.

    You have two options as far as connecting the HDP to the Display:

    01. Digital (DVI* or HDMI*) where your limited to 576p for 50Hz Input signals or run everything at 1366x768P(60); the former means your still using the scaling engine in the Display and letting the Lumagen do everything else. The latter means your bypassing as much processing in the Display as possible - though your having to let the Lumagen Frame Rate Convert 50hz signals to 60hz (which I find acceptable - most of the time).

    As the Lumagen has multiple Output memories recalled via the IR Handset its very simple to switch between both Output modes.

    *You'll require 1 x DVI or 1 x HDMI Board in the Display.

    02. Analogue - here you can run 1366x768P(50) and 1366x768P(60) so no Frame rate conversion.

    You can actually specify your Lumagen HDP with Digital (DVI) and Analogue (5 xBNC) Output sockets if you want both Options.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  29. Eye in the sky

    Eye in the sky
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    Hi lack300, charker, G, P, JF, D, and all,

    You may be excited to know that running at 1366X768@60Hz is possible for my Denon3910 (or Sky+) -> HD+ -> Panny 50PHD7. The HD+ is future-proof to handle bigger resolutions like 1920X1080P as Gordon/Piers mentioned. You probably would need Double Link DV cables for that. Joe may be able to comment on that.

    I have tried larger-than-native resolutions like 1370X770P and still works. Reason being to get rid of the bright vertical edges of the image. All this time, the Horizontal and Vertical 1:1 mappings are respected. On the Panny, use Position/Size to check out VLIN and HLIN and re-centre image.

    A note about the Sync timings, as per Joe's comment, yes, you need to tweak the HD+ to do slightly more than 60.00Hz from the FRC. Sometimes, it does not lock at exactly 60.00Hz when you use it. (Might be dependent on the crystal in individual DVI board). I think its because Panny's DVI board is quite tolerant to incoming sync timings, which is good. But once you get a picture, the HD+ stays LOCKED to it.
    For my case, my HD+ is locked to 60.18 Hz, although I could use 60.00Hz. For the Panny DVI board, it stays at 60.0Hz. The PQ is brilliant like 3D.

    I have not done the SDI route for the Sky+ to HD+ as I am waiting for SKY Hi-Def to kick in end of 2005, to save me some quids.

    For my Denon 3910, I am doing 480P (for NTSC source) and 576P (PAL source) to the HD+ via DVI and from the HD+ to Panny via DVI. The PQ is brilliant. Toy Story 2 and the Incredibles are INCREDIBLE!!! You may try 720P or 1080i from the Denon but I prefer 480P/576P.

    ##
    But sometimes the image gets a bit comby, like on Sky Sports or Channel 5 (which has good feeds). I guess its because of the scaling from 576i to 1366X768P is a lot to take. But the overall PQ is very very good.
    Do you have similar combing issues like this??
    ##


    @@@
    I have flashed my HD+ with the latest 2.73 beta firmware. I must say I like the Display Profiles although I wish there are more and also able to name it the way I like it rather than 'Profile 1', 'Profile 2', etc. The only way I can check what settings are in the active Display Profile is to do an 'Information' on the RC. What will be good is for the HD+ to flash the Information page after each new Dsplay Profile changes, if there is a quite fix to the beta. Any iScan technical programmers reading this :) ???

    I must stress that DVI may not be the best option for all sources as many sources are not 'DVI-ready' but more 'Component-Ready' because of the bandwidth and errors. So I have Display Profiles for Component-Ready materials and DVI-Ready materials.
    @@@
     
  30. MPK

    MPK
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    I think it has to do with the 3910 firmware. If you have firmware 6609-5 or below the 3910 only has HDMIv1.0, which only allows a direct connection to the TV. In order to have other devices inbetween such as a digital switching amp, the 3910 needs to be HDMIv1.1, which you will only find in the current firmware 6609-8. To check your firmare and for the Multiregion -8 firmware look here

    I had the same problem with my A1XV and couldn't use it for switching via HDMI until I upgraded the 3910 firmware.
     

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