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Is this broadband distribution model ok?

Discussion in 'Networking & NAS' started by franc, Aug 9, 2005.

  1. franc

    franc
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    Hi all. Need some advice and hoping someone here would be kind enough to point out if I am going wrong.

    A former client who owns and runs a hotel wants internet (broadband) connectivity provided to most of the rooms ( approx 30). I just need to make sure that the plan I have will work.

    From the research I have done, running cat5 cable to every room terminating in an output module will sort out the rooms. These will in turn, route back to a patch panel in the loft. The patch panel will connect to a number of hubs/switches which will feed directly to the broadband modem. Is this ok?

    The modem has 4 ethernet outputs. Each feed can run to an 8-port hub/switch so linking them together will not be necessary. Would there be a noticable difference using just 1 output and daisy-chaining the hubs/switches?

    If you have any info I should be aware of or should consider, please feel free to leave comments. Is there anything I have overlooked?



    regards FRANC
     
  2. Moosh

    Moosh
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    That should be OK but:
    * use switches rather than hubs
    * what is the connections bandwidth (splitting a 1Mb link between 30 people isn't a good idea esp. on a 50:1 contention ratio)?
    * how are you going to make sure that a person in room 1 cannot connect to room 2's computer?

    Moosh
     
  3. vex

    vex
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    Does the hotel in question have tv's in each room?

    If so there is a product that feeds 10Mps to each room over the tv coax. It also does all the ip address translation and masking automatically as the resident plugs in.

    Hardware is more expencive, but you save a heck of a lot on the install and more importantly making good afterwards.

    Let me know if you want more details.

    Chris
     
  4. Son of Shaft

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    You'll probably want to install a managable firewall and/or router to limit bandwith so one user can't hog all of it. And configure the network so that people can't see each others Laptop/PDA/... if they have misconfigured their network settings.

    And maybe add a wireless AP which guests can access (temporarily) on request.

    (have to type faster :mad: )
     
  5. franc

    franc
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    Thanks for your comments.

    I can't imagine more than 10-15 people will be using the network connection at any one time.
    It will be a 2mb bandwidth as far as I know.
    How do I go about implementing a bandwidth limiter?
    How do I also prevent users from seeing others connections/laptops etc?
    Will this require a PC to set up and manage the connection?

    Thanks again for your interest and knowledge.

    Regards FRANC
     
  6. Liam @ Prog AV

    Liam @ Prog AV
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    If you run CAT5 around the place, I would consider running 3 or 4 runs per room for any future expansion the hotel may want to carry out (distributed audio/video for example such as the Panasonic VOD modules)
     
  7. franc

    franc
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    Thanks Liam. We will be running at least a couple of runs per room. Its really down to financial constraints as to how many runs will be installed. After all, running the cables is by far the hardest (read: most costly) part of an install like this.

    Regards FRANC
     
  8. vex

    vex
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  9. rowlandhills

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    In terms of running cables and the cost of doing so, remember that you can always run cables but not actually terminate them at each end (i.e. run 4 cables, but only connect 2 up to the face plate/patch panel). That way, the extra cost is just 30p a metre or whatever for the cat 5, not 30p/m + 5 quid each end.

    If you then decide later that you want to add AV distribution over cat5, or whatever else is available by that time, you just have to remove the faceplate, pull out the spare cables and terminate them. No more cable pulling required.
     
  10. franc

    franc
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    Hi and thanks again. Iv'e just got thinking about installation costs. Do installers cost a job like electricians do and charge per outlet etc? Do the cable run lengths figure in the costing (other than the cost of the cable itself)? I guess what I am saying is, if its awkward or difficult to run the cables is this to be considered or is there a set fee per socket?

    thanks again folks, keep it coming

    Regards FRANC
     
  11. back_ache

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    Rather than terminating in the loft I would want to terminate somewhere more accessable and terminate in a patch panel.

    From there I would go to a "managed" switch so you can alter the behavior of it and activate and deactivate ports.

    So far as as worry about what uest may do to each other its not your probem, they are connecting to the big bad internet its up to them to take the risk.

    Installers charge by port.
     
  12. vex

    vex
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    Yep, Installers charge per outlet.
     
  13. franc

    franc
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    Many thanks again for your contributions, very much appreciated.

    Still doing some research and the recommendations offered, provide alternatives to investigate.

    One last thing. I have read conflicting advice on the termination order of the twisted pairs. 568A or 568B? I know as long as it is maintained its not a problem. From what I have gathered, 568A is the suggested configuration.

    Can anyone recommend an economical and reliable switch to use? Should I use 4x 8-port switches, 2x 16-port or something to handle everything?


    Regards FRANC
     
  14. Dominic

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    franc

    IMO when it comes to switches its better to have a single device rather than daisy chaining. (Unless you use the decent stuff like cisco with fible port channels) you could end up with 4 100mbs switches cascaded together with the one cable running at 100mbs but you have 32 ports running at 100mbs through a single 100mb cable, which i know will ultimatly end up as 2mb in the routers wan connection, but it makes sense to have a single backbone, within the switch hardware and not on a lan you construct out of 4 smaller switches. Also consider expansion.
    Personaly id go for a 48port switch, with a router with built in firewall. If possible get a managed switch, stick an IP on it, leave DHCP on the router for all the laptops in the hotel rooms. poke a small whole through the firewall so you can manage it remotely and dont stick it in a warm place.

    good luck.

    Dom
     
  15. vex

    vex
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    Deffo go for a managed switch, this is the only sure fire way you can protect the residents from each other and I disagree that it is the residents issue re protection from the others. If they are using your network it will be deemed as your problem especially if some coporate bod gets his hard drive wiped!

    You then have the on going issue of how you re-set each of the PC's that connect to the system so that they can get out on to the internet. If they are from corporate networks they will all have different IP addresses, Gateway and Subnet masks and I am not sure how much 'knowledge' thier owners will have as to re-setting them for the hotel network, also not sure how DHCP will cope with so much variance.
     
  16. Dominic

    Dominic
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    vex, quite right

    most corporate laptops should be DHCP, so that side of things will just work, the laptop will boot and speak to the dhcp server on the router, which will hand out a new address, then when they go back to the office they will pick up the correct address for the office.
    The problem arise when companies use STATIC address. Users not having rights to change settings ( or more importantly knowledge)

    Also proxy servers, most web broswers will be set to point to the internet via a proxy server for caching / content filtering in a corporate environment. So yet another config issue. You can solve that with a login script to merge a reg file in. ( done that one) but there isnt a server that these clients will log onto, so its going to be a real bugger to administer.

    good luck franc
     
  17. franc

    franc
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    Again, thanks for the contributions.

    I am yet to dicuss with the client the potential problems that would arrise if I implemented my initial plan. I must admit to overlooking the vistors privacy when connected to the network. The model I 'borrowed' was from a home network but am quickly realising the corporate world is a bigger picture.

    If a managed switch will enforce a secure network, this would be a safe bet. Once configured, can the managed switch be disconnected from the PC and continue to function? What about introducing a firewall between the modem and an unmanaged switch? Would this work? Would it provide user privacy?
    Sorry if these questions are stupid but I am cutting my teeth here. :thumbsup:

    I will be running the cables this week and will leave the decision on the switch till that has been completed. I can also dicuss with the client the implications of the various hardware and its limitations/benefits.

    thanks for the advice and please feel free to continue...

    Regards FRANC
     
  18. Dominic

    Dominic
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    franc

    the switch in itself would not provide privacy unless you set up a vlan for each interface ( room) that way everyone would have their own connection, but this would be a bit of an ar$e to administrer.
    Without introducing some sort of server authentication you cant really lock down access between clients. Also if there was some sort of server in the design im not sure you would be able to configure it to cope with the variety of clients that would connect ( corporate laptops tend to get locked down quite heavily )
    I think the point was made earlier, if clients connect to the internet, then there is a bigger worry about the millions of clients out there that could access your clients PC's.

    not sure what you mean about the switch still working if the PC is disconnected. If you mean can you still manage it well the answer is yes, as long as the connection to the router is maintained and the router is connected to the internet.
    A firewall would limit port access in and out of the network and accross it to a certain extent from people on the internet. But if you all have the same IP range im not sure you could implement a manageable solution to stop access between clients.

    looks like a real can of worms..
     
  19. franc

    franc
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    Thanks Dominic.

    I'll speak to the client today and see what solution we can come to. A compromise of some sort will inevitably have to be made. I shall give them the information and they can make an informed decision on the set-up.

    Much appreciated for all your contributions.
    Regards FRANC
     
  20. mucca_D

    mucca_D
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    First off, stopping client to client connections are very important. Its not that yoy are bothered about there kit, its to stop your lan getting bogged down by users using your lan for a bit of pc pc comms.

    Vlan taggin is not an ar$e. A good managed switch will support Port taggin. This is a good idea as you can then set each room a tag.

    There are some really good soloutions out there direct out of the box that you can use to run it all for you.

    Things you must consider.

    If you do not log connections from your users, you are giving them anonymous internet access. Any bad stuff on the public IP comes back to the owner of the connection.

    Infact you may find that it is now a law that you have to log any taffic on a NATed connection.

    ZyXEL do some pretty neet soloutions -
    ZYXEL LINK

    You have to make sure your corps can run there VPN software, so Firewalls can be good but remember if you start blocking ports you will get calls all the time.

    Also Proxys are good but they put a major stumbling block in for any software
    that can not use a proxy.

    DHCP is not a problem, as it can be set to release the IP on an hourly bases, plus if you use a VLtagg you can assign a reserved DHCP, this is good as it can be done on a room by room assignment.

    A good new feature appearing on stuff is a real neat function that gets over the fixed ip address issue. It allows a user with a static ip address in or out of your subnet to still connect (neat :thumbsup: )

    HTH
    Doug
     
  21. rdhir

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    I didn't see it mentioned in the thread but ethernet has a limit of three on the depth of hubs/switches. So If you use a cascade/daisychain, it can be no more than 3 levels deep.

    If you want to look at similar issues, I suggest you consider the LAN party scenario, there is a good series of articles here. Obviously your setup does not need to tear down cables and such but it might give you insight into how to set up the cascades.

    http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article114.php
    http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article128.php
    http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article132.php

    Cheers

    Rajiv
     
  22. The Dude

    The Dude
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    Hi Franc,

    Did you find anybody to run/terminate the cables for you in the end?
    If not, I can easily beat any quotes you will have had so far..
    particularly if all you require now is termination/testing, you'll like my prices.

    I mainly work with Firewall/VPN installations... I happen to have a secondhand Watchguard firebox (X700) surplus to requirements at the moment, this will take care of all the logging you require, and is also fully VPN capable. I can do you a good deal on this too if you're interested? Installation/Configuration & Support costs extra obviously.. :devil:

    Drop me a PM anytime if you still need somebody..? :)
     

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