Is there a TV free of judder or odd behavior when panning?

Discussion in 'What Is The Best TV For You?' started by Mackle, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. Mackle

    Mackle
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    Just after Christmas, I bought my girlfriend a Samsung 32EH5000 TV. After plugging a PS3 in and setting it to 1080P/24fps, she put a Blu Ray of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix in - and was very nearly sick after the opening pan and suffered feelings of nausia with scenes involving camera movement.

    The opening scene in this film starts off with a shot at the sky, which then vertically pans down over a town and a road, down to countryside. When the PS3 is set to 24fps, the picture during this pan looks incredibly processed, it's quite hard to describe it but it's almost like when the pan begins to move you can see the screen refreshing.

    If 24fps on the PS3 is turned off, the panning becomes very jerky - I would guess that it's probably the pulldown effect as it's only a 50hz/60hz TV.

    I've tried my Oppo BDP93 on this TV, and the effect is the same.

    When we try this disc on my old Sony 46X2000, as it does not support 24fps the option has to be switched off, but the result is juddery although intrestingly it's a much less violently jerky than the Samsung despite being bigger.

    Putting in other blu rays doesn't really seem to help - the opening flyover in The Two Towers makes her feel seasick (and again it looks like the motion is heavily processed when receiving a 24fps signal, or jerky to hell when just 1080P). She loves the Bourne films, but finds the motion on the Blu Ray unwatchable, but that the DVD (which I guess is encoded at a faster fps speed?) is more bearable although the motion is still ackward to watch on this TV.

    All processing options are turned off in the menu, and have also experimented with them.

    Bizarrely, the way of reducing the processed look seems to be setting the PS3 to 576P, and whilst the picture detail becomes a lot poorer the motion is almost bearable.

    The TV was changed by Richer Sounds (who basically said it's due to 24fps and that it's a "good thing" because films have stuttery pans in the cinemas too).


    So the main question is, are there any TV's (of around 32") that can receive a 1080P signal from a Blu Ray (24fps or not) and display slow pans without juddering, jerkyness, or it appearing that the screen is redrawing? For example, I've heard great things about the colours / black level on stuff like the old Pioneer Kuros, but never heard anything about how they handle pans. And I've already seen that my 2007 Sony 46X2000 handles non-24fps material slightly better than this 2012 Samsung, but it's still juddery. Is this an LCD issue, or do plasmas suffer from this too?
     
  2. vidjo

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    Simple answer to your question is NO. Think back, if you ever went to the cinema 50 years ago and watched cowboy films, the wagon wheels in westerns were often seen to run backwards when the wagon went forward. All due to the imperceptible flicker as the film was projected - a simple system of lots of still pictures. Same today with all TV systems - they are a series of still pictures that flicker. The better TV's will have more processing power and can produce better images, but too many people want an all singing and dancing TV for not a lot of money. The makers bow to the inevitable and produce a TV for the least money, so it sells, but can do better - at a price.
     
  3. lindzap

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    It's 24fps that's the root of this evil. 24 simply isn't enough to allow smooth pans at speed and never has been. It used not to be an issue in cinemas when there were dual-bladed shutters fitted to projectors but that, along with the organ and Pearl and Dean is now a thing of the past. Paradoxically we have this anachronism foisted upon us because without it it's 'not film' and 'breaks the suspension of disbelief.' It sounds to me like your girlfriend is just very sensitive to this.

    I don't know what happens if you force the 24fps off on the blu-ray end (my Denon can do this, don't know about the Oppo). You can probably do this on the PS3 (again I have not tried) and as the PS3 has plenty of processor on tap you may find it helps.

    Otherwise, it sounds like she may be condemned to watching the Hobbit with it's FFR for a while until everyone gets as keen on it as Mr Jackson seems to be.
     
  4. Mackle

    Mackle
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    With 24hz off it judders badly, with it on a panning image looks overly processed and slightly flickery.

    It's a 60hz TV, although Samsung say it has "50hz processing". I am thinking that the TV has to apply some sort of processing with a 1080/24p image regardless of what the menu options are set to.

    How do 120hz TVs fare with 24hz slow pans? I would assume that 100hz sets still have to do some sort of asymmetrical pull down so would still have issues, but a 120hz set would be perfect?
     
  5. lindzap

    lindzap
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    I was hoping that the Oppo had better processing than the TV so that forcing the conversion in the player would be better, but perhaps not. I think that you are hoping since 24 divides 120 then there would be a more successful conversion at the display end? To be honest I think that's going to be highly dependent on the unique config of what algorithms are really in play. I think the problem will still be that there isn't enough information in the source material in the first place and that all attempts at interpolation are compromises. How successful the compromise depends on how much processing you put in to the algorithm implementation and I suspect a mass market consumer device isn't going to have a lot of money thrown at hq video processing. Happy to hear I am wrong.
     

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