Is the panning blur really due to the Tosh?

Razor

Member
-TYN- said:
Razor, im not just stupid enough to be not able to spell but also stupid enough not to see a button. :D


LOL :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

St_ve

Standard Member
destix said:
razor , you seem to be up to speed on these forums , have you heard much about the samsung sp46l3hx , it costs about £1800 , not many threads about it , but most posts seem positive , you know of any drawbacks? , HD compatibility etc?
I think i am going to cancel my order for the tosh , was only ordered 2 days ago anyway , then might pop into currys and pick up the samsung (dont see it much cheaper on the web) :rolleyes:

oh , and what set have you got steve?
I have the Optoma RD50 if i was looking for a set now i'd demo my set & the samsungs both HD3 & HD2+ models i haven't seen them in action but have heard positive reports on them
my set has a problem playing region one DVDs (NTSC) unless u use a PC which is very very good at playing :r1: &:r2:
 

soni

Banned
Right Guys - I am completely 'Gobsmacked'!

TAKE A READ OF THIS :clap:

I have spent the last 3 hours, messing around with my Tosh DLP, and also my previous 28" Tosh CRT which i've stored in my youngest daughters nursery - as i thought the TV is to good to sell at a stupid price, so decided to keep as a spare.

Anyway, I was watching Monsters Inc on the DLP, and noticed bits of blur hear and there, namely - the bit at the beginning (don't know any of the characters names - just watched for the animation) when that big blue/green hairy monster pushes that other round monster along his bedroom floor - and both monsters blur big time. Then, they walk out of his apartment, along the footpath, and it shows you a newspaper attached to a billboard or something, and as the camera panned, the newspaper print started to judder and blur!

Anyway, i thought to myself enough is enough, i'm going to phone Comets tommorrow, and get an engineer around - first to look at the Tosh DLP's blurring and then take him upstairs and show him what it should look like - on the Tosh CRT. Anyway, i went upstairs, wired up my old Tosh DVD player, put the Disc in - and as the film started with that character at the beginning (the THX Advertising bit - don't know if any of you have seen it but it looks really cool, lovely vibrant colours, and if you've got an amp - some really cool Digital 5.1 surround sound of cows mooing!) i though oh my god where have those colours gone to? They looked washed out compared with the DLP. Then the film started and i was completely shocked to see that the blurring i noticed on the DLP was almost exactly the same on the CRT! Then, i put 'The Day After Tommorrow' in the player, and watched the opening section when there flying over the frozen waters and ice, and again that was blurring just like on the DLP, then the bit i've reffered to a few pages ago when Jack phoned his Ex, and walks through his library on his cordless, and guess what? Yep - the blurring was there to. I was really gobsmacked, but then i thought to make doubly sure, i'll go back downstairs and bring my Denon player up so i can do a better comparison (thinking there might be something wrong with the Tosh player) but the Denon displayed the pictures exactly the same. Now i know some of you might be thinking that the Tosh CRT i've got might not be up to it - but its only about 4 - 5 years old and was a 5 star winner when it was released. I allways remembered it as having a fantastic picture, but i've obviously got used to the DLP! I would HONESTLY say that the blurring on the CRT was probably about 10% max clearer than the DLP, as the DLP did have a slight fizz to it - but considering its a 28" compared with a 46", i think the DLP does a bloody good job. Also, the blurring i'm talking about on the CRT - wasn't smooth blurr where you spin around and can't focus on something - it was clearly panning blurr - juddery/artifect!!!!

I am certainly very happy with the DLP now, and to think that i was once happy with that CRT, i certainly wouldn't be able to go back to it now after watching the DLP. Another thing, i used a Profi Gold Scart cable, and you certainly get a much clearer picture with the HDMI Cable on the DLP - as i noticed slight hissing on lines on the 28" Tosh via Scart, which i obviously accepted back then prior to being spoilt with HDMI! Anyway, after tonight - it seems pointless getting anybody around - as its clearly (anybody would be able to see) identical to the CRT!!!! :)
 

Razor

Member
To be honest Soni i thought you had already compared the blurring on a crt. Which is why I said this.

Razor said:
Fleagledog

When you talk about blurred motion in films it can a desired effect that the director has chosen. ie a style of shooting. I dont think these members (ie. soni, kableman,tyn etc..) are counting these scenes as a problem.

What they are saying is that scences which have no blur etc on a normal crt have blur etc on their Tosh.
Glad your a bit happier with the pic now. :)
 

St_ve

Standard Member
I am a bit surprised when i take a DVD along for a demo i allways take one i know well so why did all the Tosh owners get blur histeria ?
When i saw the Tosh with Matrix reloaded it was the skin tones that was the problem
do you have any problem with them?
Do you need to use the HDMI input to get a good picture how is it with a DVD player on a scart lead or component.
 

supermackem

Active Member
Thats one thing good about dlp the colours are so lush and deep, im glad you are a tad happy now soni. I just wish the oil painting and the dithering wasnt so bad as then i would love this tv. The colours are lush i find reds and blues look asowme when there solid blocks of colour on the tv. I am gutted with the way tosh have handled the situation saying its a feature of the tv etc instead of saying it maybe a fault and we will try to look into it moreand say offer us a free lamp or something. Anyone know where you can buy these lamps i know i have thousands of hours left, but the thought of needing one in a few years time and not being able to find a place to buy from is worring me.
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
I suspect what we may have, here, is a case of a much bigger screen showing up an artefact that was always there, but which we simply didn't notice on our tiny CRT set.

or

soni - is your CRT set a 100hz job, or a regular 50hz one? If it's 100hz, it may have a bearing; CRT 100hz processing is similar in many ways to the scaling needed to drive a DLP (or Plasma or LCD for that matter) and might, just might, cause similar effects.
 

-TYN-

Member
Sorry Soni but i am not convinced all my dvd etc look great on any other display in the house, of course they are going to show framerate blurr "which is a normal blurr accurance and looks natural" but like Kableman said this is phsycadellic blurr gone bad on the Tosh. Plus you cannot pause it to view it, so this means its not the source but an artifact added by the Tosh.

Although i see LV426 point with the 100 hz as this can cause a sort of smearing but this is still nowhere near as bad as the coloured fizzing type blurr of the Tosh.

Also on my pc and console games they must have remade the textures just for when you put it on the Tosh (these programmers are clever :) ) as hey presto they change into a mess when turning etc.

Or maybe all sources just have a Tosh recognition system ?
 

soni

Banned
St_ve said:
I am a bit surprised when i take a DVD along for a demo i allways take one i know well so why did all the Tosh owners get blur histeria ?
When i saw the Tosh with Matrix reloaded it was the skin tones that was the problem
do you have any problem with them?
Do you need to use the HDMI input to get a good picture how is it with a DVD player on a scart lead or component.
Steve - The skin tone thing can be a problem with a digital tv feed, but to be honest i can't recall ever seeing this problem on DVD.
 

soni

Banned
supermackem said:
Thats one thing good about dlp the colours are so lush and deep, im glad you are a tad happy now soni. I just wish the oil painting and the dithering wasnt so bad as then i would love this tv. The colours are lush i find reds and blues look asowme when there solid blocks of colour on the tv. I am gutted with the way tosh have handled the situation saying its a feature of the tv etc instead of saying it maybe a fault and we will try to look into it moreand say offer us a free lamp or something. Anyone know where you can buy these lamps i know i have thousands of hours left, but the thought of needing one in a few years time and not being able to find a place to buy from is worring me.
Thanks Supermackem - There's no way i would get rid of this TV now. I agree it is a shame about the oil painting effect but i am sure this is a feed quality problem, as i can't recall seing this on any DVD's.
 

soni

Banned
LV426 said:
I suspect what we may have, here, is a case of a much bigger screen showing up an artefact that was always there, but which we simply didn't notice on our tiny CRT set.

or

soni - is your CRT set a 100hz job, or a regular 50hz one? If it's 100hz, it may have a bearing; CRT 100hz processing is similar in many ways to the scaling needed to drive a DLP (or Plasma or LCD for that matter) and might, just might, cause similar effects.
LV426 - Yes the TV is a 100hz CRT, but the scan mode was set to natural, as i never used the set in pure 100hz mode as it seemed to give a slight shimmering effect on lines on the TV menu, although i could never see it on the tv picture, i allways thought the natural selection would give the best picture!
 

soni

Banned
-TYN- said:
Sorry Soni but i am not convinced all my dvd etc look great on any other display in the house, of course they are going to show framerate blurr "which is a normal blurr accurance and looks natural" but like Kableman said this is phsycadellic blurr gone bad on the Tosh. Plus you cannot pause it to view it, so this means its not the source but an artifact added by the Tosh.

Although i see LV426 point with the 100 hz as this can cause a sort of smearing but this is still nowhere near as bad as the coloured fizzing type blurr of the Tosh.

Also on my pc and console games they must have remade the textures just for when you put it on the Tosh (these programmers are clever :) ) as hey presto they change into a mess when turning etc.

Or maybe all sources just have a Tosh recognition system ?
Hi Tyn - I did say the following 'I would HONESTLY say that the blurring on the CRT was probably about 10% max clearer than the DLP, as the DLP did have a slight fizz to it - but considering its a 28" compared with a 46", i think the DLP does a bloody good job.'

I admit that the CRT was slightly clearer on the panning - i.e., the DLP had a slight fizz which the CRT didn't, but as i said, i would only say it was about 10% clearer, and when you take into consideration the screen size - 46 compared to 28, i believe that if you was to stretch the CRT to 46", it would be very close indeed. The blurring/juddering is still more than evident on the CRT when you look for it - and i believe thats the main problem, its been spotted on a 46" and once you've noticed it you keep on looking at it. Take a look at Monster Inc for example on a CRT you will see what i mean - just look at that newspaper section for example - it judders and blurs something cronic, if you really think the director intended it to look like that then i must disagree. If i had noticed the panning problem on the CRT when i bought it, i would have probably returned that believing it was a fault, but i didn't because i wasn't looking for it - and the reason i wasn't looking for it was because it didn't notice as much due to being a smaller screen size. Once you've noticed it, you'll keep on noticing it and i think thats the major problem here!
 

Razor

Member
soni said:
Thanks Supermackem - There's no way i would get rid of this TV now.

That grip fill is good stuff. :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

Razor

Member
soni said:
You must be joking Razor, tell me you havn't done it to your RD65 :confused:


LOL... no I ment theres no way of sending your tosh set back as it is stuck to the wall with grip fill.

1 tosh with a few bricks and a bit of plaster stuck to the back for a refund.lol :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Soni you should use a PC & a TV digi freeview card & shrink the picture with bad sources untill you get good picture quality.
Don't buy Matrix reloaded either as that looks bad on the Tosh .
 

St_ve

Standard Member
LV426:soni - is your CRT set a 100hz job, or a regular 50hz one? If it's 100hz, it may have a bearing; CRT 100hz processing is similar in many ways to the scaling needed to drive a DLP (or Plasma or LCD for that matter) and might, just might, cause similar effects.
I saw a toshiba CRT set saturday the picture quality was great untill we switched over to the Aston Villa game on sky the picture was terrible easily the worst i've ever seen on a CRT. When i was talking about it with my son he said you have to switch back to 50 hrz for the bad sources .
 

KableMan

Active Member
Sorry Guys - I may be a stick in the mud or be suffering from "blur hysteria" as St_ve suggests ;) but soni's findings, while very interesting, do not resolve the issue for me at all.

This blur and painted/oily skin thing are so bad that you would not help but see them on any other sizeable TV. I agree that you may not have noticed them on a 28" but I'm certain they would have been noticeable on a 36" and definitely a 40" but I've never seen them on my existing Toshiba. I honestly think that if the RD50 or RD65 or a SP50 suffered with these artifacts then St_ve, Razor and Indie or mistycat would surely know about it and I'm guessing would not put up with it all.

I agree with TYN that the source is a factor in enhancing the issue but it is most definitely not the "source" of the problem. If PC Games, XBOX Games and HD can all suffer from it and if those same games and HD sources don't cause similar problems on a CRT monitor that you can see from 3" away then its definitely not a source issue. I saw it clearly on HD via HDMI and VGA and in HL2 on the walls.

I think its no coincidence that soni you tried the monster's inc DVD out on a high-end Toshiba CRT with 100Hz capability. It wouldn't surprise me if it uses similar algorithms to process the image and so causes the same problems. It would not then surpise me that you didn't notice them until you moved to a 46" TV but my old TV is a 40" rptv and has no fancy 100Hz or progressive scan processing, its straight 50Hz, and I still don't see anything like these artifacts or blurrs on it - and I know what i'm looking for now. I also don't see any skin tone problems.

And as far as demos went St_ve. I watched parts of Gladiator and I, Robot, plus the DLP demo disc and normal TV on the Toshiba before I bought. I saw HD on the sagem. In hindsight I watched all the wrong bits and didn't look for any panning shots - even the normal analogue TV was very slow moving stuff. That's my own fault.

Anyway i'm still convinced i've made the right decision, as I don't feel sick about this TV anymore for a start, and so I'm returning it - i've even written off the £300 now :( Unfortunately I stand by my comments/views on the Toshiba as a result of this and could not in all good conscience recommend it to others. Call me hysterical or negative if you like but i'm being as honest as I know how.

I'm almost certain i'm going to go for a samsung as a replacement as it showed no signs of any of these problems while they were simultaneously occurring on the Toshiba showing the same source/programmes/dvd next door. Can someone explain how this if it is a source issue?

Cheers
KableMan
 

indie24

Well-known Member
do u have a image of the oil painting effect?
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Oil painting is a bit misleading in that oil paintings can do skin tones & there are great oil painting portraits.
 

Razor

Member
St_ve said:
Oil painting is a bit misleading in that oil paintings can do skin tones & there are great oil painting portraits.

I think they mean the oil painting effect is an acutal effect you can get in drawing/photo programs where it turns the picture into an oil painting.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
:D i know but Photoshop makes a better job of it than the Tosh does with a poor source.
 

Razor

Member
Kableman

Good post, I agree with you 100%. When I bought my RD65 i wasnt a happy bunny and I couldnt recommend the set to anyone unless they didnt have any region 1 dvd's in their collection. I respect you for posting an honest account on your experiance's with the Tosh. Lets remember we didnt design and build these sets only buy them. If there is something wrong with a display I would rather know than be kept in the dark.

Your right in saying that if I had the same problem as you have had I would of been pulling my hair out. The fact that you are willing to loose £300 just shows how bad a time you are having with this set. Has anyone tried viewing the dvd's on a normal pc and monitor, doing a screen grab and comparing to the Tosh? If it blurs on the pc then its gonna blur on the Tosh. But if it doesnt blur on the pc and blurs with the Tosh, then the Tosh is at fault. I would seroiusly challenge tosh via magazines, online reviews and forums. Tell them you will drop your action if your £300 isnt retained and a full refund is given. After all you are returning a set that isnt working correctly. If a £2000 retail price tv cant display a picture that a £80 portable tv can then its faulty or shouldnt be on the market.

If your letters/action is successful you'll lose Tosh more than £300. Optoma sales went to nothing after I contacted the press, forums etc. I was personally told that my actions had messed their sales up considerably. I was posting everyday about the hassels i was having, sending letters of to magzines and posted a few reviews on other websites. I had over a dozen people thank me for my info and told me they were looking else where because of what i said. How much did that cost Optoma, I will never find out. The fact that one of their staff told me I was damaging their sales was enough.

From what everyone says I dont think its is a source issue. Certainly if there is blur on the source then there will be blur on the Tosh. I also dont think that it is the quality of the source, again it does effect it but I dont think it is the main cause as the same results come from HD material. It really sounds like the tosh has an information overload when it pans or it just gets confussed and cant keep up.

One thing I do remeber was that at the AV show Tosh were showing loads of slow motion video and I cant remember any panning or fast motion. I remeber thinking how relaxing and slow the demo dvd was. We all know why there was no fast action scenes with panning etc.

Dont blame yourself for not picking up on the Blur before you bought it. When i viewed the RD65 at Optoma I saw judder on Xmen 2 HD (HD VHS). I asked them why it was juddering and they said the tape was knackered as it had been used alot. They removed the tape rather sharpish and I beleived them and forgot all about the judder. How wrong was i to do that.

:)
 

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