Is the panning blur really due to the Tosh?

soni

Banned
supermackem said:
Ive tried a bit of hd demos on the tosh, blurring was still there at 1080 and 720p pic is amazing but blur is still there. Not as bad as normal but still there, my set seems to be getting worse with blurs. I dont want to play xbox on it anymore as watching the walls bleed into multi colours and just turn into a lump of mess on the screen just puts me off games. Slow panning is a joke on this tv striaght lines of walls and objects turn into fuzzy mess facial blur painted face etc i get the lot and it seems to be getting worse. More so after attempting to play on my xbox they seem to get worse and worse all colours blurring fuzzy etc. If i go to the screen up close you can see blocks flashing on and off all over the screen. I thought it maybe the dvd player so i bought the panny with hdmi still there if a tad better. This tv is a joke really as is digital point .co.uk as is toshiba. To call it a feature is just laughable really and beyond a joke. I would send it back if a) the shop would take it back b) i wouldnt lose £100s of pounds if i managed to get them to take it back. I would advise anyone against getting this tv and this has soured my taste buds with anything toshiba related as upto now tos was the miain tv make i had bought for a long time. :mad: :mad:
Are you listening Mr Toshiba, or couldn't you give a Tosh :D
 

supermackem

Active Member
I dont think they care mate. Funny how there aint much complaint about this model in usa i wonder what they messed up when makeing it a uk tv. Ohh how i wish i didnt buy this tv worst desion i have ever made.
 

-TYN-

Member
Razor,
Just confirming that 60 hz has no improvement, My dvd collection is 90% region 1 and the blurr was just the same sorry to say.

Also i tried hd demos and pc games etc and the problem is still their but much improved. I dont think it is a "cannot keep up issue" because of this, i just think the Tosh handles temporal dithering very badly partly because of the use of a six segment colour wheel and also bad software.
Most new DLP's including Samsung and Optoma now use 7 segment wheels and after all one of the main reasons for 7th segment was to increase dark detail and reduce dot dithering.
Also i cannot remember who it was (someone on this forum) but someone phoned Toshiba and they said it was down to the colour wheel or optics or something similar ( just been searching for the post but its a forest out there with all these blurr threads) , Plus their is a whole webpage about temporal dithering http://twentysix.net/HLM507W/artifacts/. Is it this effect brought to its extreme with bad software/optics ? .Just an idea.

Also supermacken them flashing dots you are seeing (flashing pixels on dark areas) are down to this problem.
 

supermackem

Active Member
cheers mate as i say i wish i never bought this tv. Its a joke really toshiba have lost a customer for life over this i will no longer buy there product after the fobbing off and its a feature of the set reply i got when phoneing up.
 

Razor

Member
I think I am the only person in this thread that hasnt got a Tosh but I still really want you guys to cure the problem or at least reduce it to a comfortable watchable level.

I wonder if anyone you look at the bitrate when the bluring occurs is it high or just normal?

You could be right about the 7 segment wheel but i really wont like to say. I think a phone call to Tosh's techinical department is in need.

Soni your right about the kitchen and the better half. I see no reason for them leaving the kitchen unless they are tidying up the house or doing the food shopping. LOL :)


Supermackem

DO you think we will be seeing these tosh sets on ebay before long. I bet you would still be able to get a good price. Either that or a glass of water gets split on it and your insurance company buys you a new tv. Please note the last comment is a bit illegal.
 

supermackem

Active Member
Lol if i could get rid for near the amount i paid i would, this tv really just isnt any good its just doesnt handle motion at all. Ive just resigned myself to the fact its therenow and these nowt i can do about it. I just hope the many toshiba compliant threads help people and put them off buying it as i wouldnt wish it on anyone.
 

supermackem

Active Member
Its funny as many have said when its good this tv looks aswome and jaw dropping but add in slow panning camera and browns and greens etc and it goes into a blurry mess.
 

-TYN-

Member
You also have to remember that this was Toshibas first shot at using DLP technology and they launched at a low price. (Samsung, Optoma, Thompson, Sagem and even LG have all had previous experience and they still have some more minor probs).
Samsung (rear proj tvs) and Optoma (front and now rear proj) have more experience than anyone with DLP in tvs and projectors and i think this shows.

But does that mean that us the test monkeys should have to pay for their mistakes ?
 

Razor

Member
I think its time for The Royal Family as all the shoots are taken in one room and there is no panning. :)
 

supermackem

Active Member
I think they should have tested it more anyone who seen this surly wouldnt buy it. How did it pass test etc and why does the usa model of this not suffer to the extent as the uk model if at all.
 

Razor

Member
supermackem said:
I think they should have tested it more anyone who seen this surly wouldnt buy it. How did it pass test etc and why does the usa model of this not suffer to the extent as the uk model if at all.


Deja vu with my Optoma set, How a company can release a non NTSC set in 2004 is unbeleivable. I think the secret to getting your sets to output a trouble free pic lies in the US set. Is there really no bluring complaints from over the pond?
 

St_ve

Standard Member
fleagledog said:
Nice to know that I'm being talked about in my absence :)
Anyway, just been to see Hostage; great film and guess what? I saw blurring especially in the dark outside scenes (of which there are many). So I saw the blurring and I was nowhere near my Tosh. Explain please. Either I am seeing a different blurring from all of you in which case I'm not really seeing the blur so not a Tosh/DLP problem (in my case), or I am seeing the blur in which case it is a source problem (as I suspect). Either way, Tosh cant be blamed (no I dont work for Tosh). Somebody destroy that logic.
fleagledog you did'nt reply to my post in another thread about the blur on the Toshiba i took some screengrabs of the blur in Gladiator which you say you have poven that it exists on all sources .if you want to see them hears the link.
http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1574854&postcount=43
 

Razor

Member
G

godzuki

Guest
I've been toying with buying either the sagem hd45 or the toshiba 46wm48. My personal opinion is that the sagem suffered from extreme "juddering" - where it seemed that the picture stuttered (especially in fast action scenes).

However, besides the occassional oily looking face on the toshiba (where the signal was ****), the picture on the toshiba was out of this world.

I also thought that the sagem was over priced, flimsy looking and didn't come with a stand (unlike the toshiba).
 

St_ve

Standard Member
soni said:
High Guys, can't believe we're up till nearly three in the morning talking about blurs - still what the heck - its better than sleeping!

Anyway, now that the Mrs is in bed, and i can look for blurring on the TV without her knowing (she would probably collect her things and the kids and leave if she knew what i was doing - think i've gone completely mad :rolleyes: ) i've just been looking at 'The Day After Tommorrow' and to be honest, i couldn't actually see any blurring at first, i was just speechless as i forgot how good the film really looked - as the Tosh displays it really well - although there was a little at the beginning as the film first opens up, when the camera is scanning over the fronzen waters/ice, but when i paused the film, the ice was still blurred, so i wouldn't say thats a fault with the Tosh or the blurring we are talking about - as for example Gladiator and other films that the Toshiba blurs - when you hit pause - the picture is fine and not blured.
BUT - i then found some - about 12 minutes into the film when Jack arrives home, and phones his ex about Sams grades, and he walks through his library speaking on his cordless phone, and if you look at the books on the shelves, they are a complete mess - all of the straight lines of each book and the bookcase are distorted, and the writing on the ends of the books looks like there moving away out of the book and onto the next - BUT when you hit pause or play it frame by frame - it has the normal blur that you would expect from any TV/Film when the camera is focused on something in the foreground - and once you've been watching the film roll and you then move frame by frame - the natural blur looks quite clear compared with the mess that you get when the films running.
I then tried changing every setting on the DVD player, like Razor recommended, i tried interlaced, progressive, 480/576p, 720P, 1080i, changed from Multi - PAL - NTSC, and nothing has helped. :mad:
Anyway, i'm going to be a lightweight and retire now, as i've got to be up at 6! Nighty Nighty!!!! :hiya:
When i looked at the Tosh in Comet i did'nt see any bluring just the oil painting effect on faces on the Matrix Reloaded DVD.
Soni reading your post it sounds as if the bluring could be judder, maybe Razor's on the right track .Optoma fouled up by not providing a set that could handle NTSC playback . Is it possible that Toshiba's slipped up on the Pal side by not fine tuning the Pal colour wheel speed at 50hrz properley.
 

KableMan

Active Member
destix said:
Just ordered the Tosh 46WM48 and after reading this forum im starting to wonder , should i cancel my order , is the blurring really that bad?

i still have time to cancel , so can anyone give me a bit of perspective on how bad this blurring is :eek:
should i order a different set?
if so which one , i dont want to go above the price of 1600 that im paying for the tosh :nono:
Hi destix - if you haven't seen the blur in the flesh, so to speak, i'd go and demo a set quick and try to see if you can put up with it. I um'd and ah'd for ages over the Toshiba and I thought I had the problems in perspective and I decided to go for the cheaper Toshiba with a view to upgrading when HD goes live, but only if I wasn't satified with the Tosh at that time, but having experienced the problem first hand it quite literally ruined my enjoyment of the set. In fact I sat their in silence at first watching the set and trying desperately to see past the problems (I had bad rainbows too at first) and then it was my wife who said she was getting a headache because of the blurring on screen! It can give you real eye strain trying to focus on the blurry images and because they are so extensive on some sources, like normal telewest digital, you can't escape them.

There seems to be a real consensus starting to form about the performance of this TV, more so even than when I was looking, and if i'd read some of these posts before I bought I never would have. To be totally honest unless you have a high tolerrence for such things or very low expectations about the sets performance if i were you i'd cancel my order.

Putting it in perspective I'm willing to pay £300 to return my set i'm that unhappy with it and i'm not made of money but I figure its a small price to pay compared with £1550 worth of misery sitting in my living room.

If that doesn't convince you my set is 2 weeks old, boxed up and in brand new condition and sitting in my hallway awaiting pickup for return. If you split the difference with me you can have it for £1400 ;)

Cheers
KableMan

PS. I was a loyal Toshiba owner of seven years up to this point and i've now gone back to watching my old 40" rptv - in fact I enjoyed a blur free Doctor Who last night as a result! I think that sums up the new flagship Toshiba DLP for me :thumbsdow
 

St_ve

Standard Member
-TYN- said:
Razor,
Just confirming that 60 hz has no improvement, My dvd collection is 90% region 1 and the blurr was just the same sorry to say.
Also i tried hd demos and pc games etc and the problem is still their but much improved. I dont think it is a "cannot keep up issue" because of this, i just think the Tosh handles temporal dithering very badly partly because of the use of a six segment colour wheel and also bad software.
Most new DLP's including Samsung and Optoma now use 7 segment wheels and after all one of the main reasons for 7th segment was to increase dark detail and reduce dot dithering.
Also i cannot remember who it was (someone on this forum) but someone phoned Toshiba and they said it was down to the colour wheel or optics or something similar ( just been searching for the post but its a forest out there with all these blurr threads) , Plus their is a whole webpage about temporal dithering http://twentysix.net/HLM507W/artifacts/. Is it this effect brought to its extreme with bad software/optics ? .Just an idea.
Also supermacken them flashing dots you are seeing (flashing pixels on dark areas) are down to this problem.
Think it might have been Hifiboom talking about the colour wheel not being synchronised properley.
I'm not sure about the number of segments on the colour wheel being to blame as the Sagem HD50" i think only has 6 & no real picture problems
& the Sagem 45 has seven & has problems with skin tones.
If i owned a Tosh that had serious faults with either skin tones or excessive blurring i would be [writing ,phoning , e-mailing] Toshiba , the dealer i bought the set from , Watchdog & the AV magazines.
Toshiba make fine CRT sets i was visiting friends in Plymouth last night who bought one last year & it's got great picture quality the Manchester United game on match of the day had a good picture but the Aston Villa game where they destroyed Newcastle :devil:
had a terrible picture digital blocking & blury faces in long shot this was on one of the sky channells .Telewest allways has a good picture with football on a CRT set.
 

-TYN-

Member
Steve i think everyone will confirm it is definatley not 60 hz judder, if you owned the tv you would see how bad it really is. All i can say is seeing it in the shop is all well and good but owning it is when you will see and quickly become tired of the problem.

Are you insulting my intelligence i do know what 60 hz judder looks like :)

Just kidding Steve.
 

St_ve

Standard Member
Of coursne not TYN
i was thinking maybe it's got a less severe case of Optoma 60hrz judder but at 50hrz
if the skin tone's have the oil painting look i saw it would not need much judder at all to make them blur in a pan
 

-TYN-

Member
The tosh has no problems with 60hz frame rate and the problem exists on 50hz as well anyway.

By the way i had to look up how to spell intelligence :D
 

St_ve

Standard Member
i didn't bother checking the spelling of
so no judder then but it may still be related to the poor skin tones & possible slight misstiming of the colour wheel
 

destix

Standard Member
Razor said:
TYN

Glad to see you are expanding your HD collection. :)

Pantages

Soni tried to input a 60hz signal but got no joy. I dont think he used a NTSC disc though as he hasnt any. Maybe someone with a region 1 dvd could try.

Destix

You arent gonna have much choice around that price mark if you want a DLP set. You could get a sagem HD50 but it has got HDCP for HD material so its a bit pointless getting this set as your primary set. You can also get the LG 44' but this hasnt got any digital inputs so I would steer clear. I cant comment on performance from the LG as I have never seen it. The sagem however is a good set apart from the lack of HDCP. Hope that helps a bit.
razor , you seem to be up to speed on these forums , have you heard much about the samsung sp46l3hx , it costs about £1800 , not many threads about it , but most posts seem positive , you know of any drawbacks? , HD compatibility etc?
I think i am going to cancel my order for the tosh , was only ordered 2 days ago anyway , then might pop into currys and pick up the samsung (dont see it much cheaper on the web) :rolleyes:

oh , and what set have you got steve?
 

jrl

Active Member
go with the samsung ive had both, the samsug is far better [see my other posts]
 

Razor

Member
TYN

You don't need to look up the spelling of words theirs a spell check button. lol... :devil:

Hi Destix

Your right there isn't that many threads on the 46' samsung. From what i can recall most users are happy with their sets.

I have never seen one of these sets in action so i really cant comment on its performance. Why not start a thread on the Samsung sp46l3hx, I m sure there will be a proud owner out there who share his/her knowledge on the samsung set. As for HD compatibility just make sure its got either a HDMI or DVI connection that accepts HDCP. As long as it has this you will be fine with HD DVD's and Sky HD.

Good luck ;)

BTW thanks for the compliment
 

-TYN-

Member
Razor, im not just stupid enough to be not able to spell but also stupid enough not to see a button. :D
 

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