Is the panning blur really due to the Tosh?

KableMan

Active Member
St_ve said:
Reading posts on the Toshiba it seems some Toshiba sets do not have these faults so i don't think the issue is done & dusted yet.
If all Toshiba sets suffered from a common fault one of the Toshiba owners should post a report in the DLP problems Sticky advising prospective owners what to look out for when they demo the set.
If they are faults with individual sets Toshiba should fix them.
A lot of threads pop up of the "which is better variety " & there allways seems to be at least one Tosh owner saying how great the set is without pointing out any faults.
Hi Steve - I think, having seen the Tosh in comet yesterday (for the second time) and reading TYN's post again and how closely it described what i've seen, that the Toshiba sets are all the same (and they all work the same) and its actually the owners, and what they see, that are different.

There are clearly too issues, i.e. painted/oily faces/skin and motion blurring/fizzing, but only some owners notice them all the time, some notice them some of the time and some don't notice them at all. I wish I were the latter but i'm the former. This is why some owners only rave about the TV, and there's a lot to be positive about, and some go on about the "blur" all the time. This time I fall into the latter group - mainly because I read all there was to read and decided that the price and overall positive feedback would outweigh any minor blurring issues and I bought but I was wrong and as a result have been very very disappointed and its gonna cost me £300 'cos there's no way Toshiba are gonna fix it 'cos its a "feature" not a fault.

So I want to talk about it to warn others so they know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Ultimately as many have said you must demo before you buy and if the blurr/painted effects don't bother you then buy the Toshiba and you will be rewarded with a superb TV but if you're a picky telly addict/movie buff like me then you are bound to notice it at some point (if not instantly like I did) and you will be disappointed.

-TYN- said:
Yes Elephant man i think on HD material which is nearly upon us this blurr problem is no where near as noticable and therefore very soon your purchase will seem a lot lot rosier.
Unfortunately seeing any such artifacts on HD was one artifact too many for me on a TV that is designed for hi-definition. Again other owners may be more forgiving or may not have noticed anything and if so more power too them but for me this was my acid test and the Tosh let me down. I hope by posting such feedback I can warn others to make a purchase with their own eyes open.

Dale - check out my posts about my demo of the samsung alongside the Toshiba and it did not suffer from any of these problems. So I dispute your statement that 90% of DLP's suffer with this problem. But I do agree with you that if you are disatisfied then you should return the set if you can as i'm doing.

Cheers
KableMan

PS. This is a great forum and there can't be too many posts on any subject - every post has merit so the more the merrier :)
 

-TYN-

Member
A very well written post Kableman,
I to could not put up with the blurr on hd because as you know once you have seen it you can see it on any source all i meant was is that it is far less noticable.

Also which wmv-hd movies would you recommend, the choice is limited to some pretty poor films. :confused:
 

soni

Banned
-TYN- said:
Well i have not seen one without the problem and i viewed loads before returning my set and i still make a point of checking now.

I would rather believe my own eyes and not somebody elses sometimes biased or self comforting/reassuring opinion.

Has anybody who has returned one (not a current owner) since seen a perfect one ?

Until i see a perfect one myself i will not be convinced.
I've experienced exactly the same, every set i've looked at has had the blur - in fact, if anybody has a Tosh in Kent that doesn't have this so called 'feature' then i would love to take a look at it just for 5 minutes - then if it doesn't blur i can go straight to Toshiba and get this 'feature' removed from my TV once and for all!
 

-TYN-

Member
Hiya Soni,
Have not been here for a while, nice to see you again. Just noticed you own the Denon dvd player and amp that i am looking at getting i'm a bit of a Denon fan "quality" (only if they made tvs it would be gold and blah blah dream). Well just wondered if you were happy with them i also cannot decide between the kef .2's or the genies.

Decisions, decisions... :)
 

KableMan

Active Member
Cheers TYN - Meet the Fockers, when it comes out, has got to be the best movie. The IMAX movies look really great for HD - not sure how good they are as real movies though. Maybe St_ve and Razor can recommend some? BTW I saw the blur on Rules of Attraction (wmv) and In Good Company (divx). Madagascar and Shark Tale (divx) both looked amazing though - although Shark Tale was very impressive on normal SD DVD - thanks soni for pointing this out :smashin:

I agree soni - I too would love to see a Tosh that works perfectly too...
 

-TYN-

Member
Madagascar does look great. To me it looks like the divx hd stuff looks better than wmv or maybe its just the choice of clips used are better.
I might just have to get Total Recall, Itallian Job and Gangs Of New York ON WMV-HD until they actually bring some decent hd releases out :rolleyes: .
I thought Meet The Fockers was very good by the way and preffered it to the first.
 

soni

Banned
KableMan said:
There are clearly too issues, i.e. painted/oily faces/skin and motion blurring/fizzing, but only some owners notice them all the time, some notice them some of the time and some don't notice them at all. I wish I were the latter but i'm the former. This is why some owners only rave about the TV, and there's a lot to be positive about, and some go on about the "blur" all the time. This time I fall into the latter group - mainly because I read all there was to read and decided that the price and overall positive feedback would outweigh any minor blurring issues and I bought but I was wrong and as a result have been very very disappointed and its gonna cost me £300 'cos there's no way Toshiba are gonna fix it 'cos its a "feature" not a fault.

I don't know how on earth Toshiba have the cheak to refer to a blur as a feature - there's a blur, and then theres the fizzing blur - correct me if i'm wrong but shouldn't a feature on a TV benefit the picture - and if it is in fact a feature - can't they fit some type of on/off switch so we can switch the damn thing off! :smashin:

I understand that this is yet ANOTHER thread on blurring, but if you've read my post over in the 'Tosh 46 Picture Problems' i.e.,:-

soni said:
Razor and others!!

Oh well guys, looks like i'm breaching the AV Forum rules by collecting information of other unhappy owners of the Tosh! Just got this PM from Stuart Wright - The Administrator!!! At first I thought he had a problem with the Tosh as well :D , but it turned out the only problem he has is with me!! :cool:

Have a read:-

''Sorry but I'm not happy with your invitation to collect details for a complaint to Toshiba.
The AV Forums are not to be used in this way.
If you have any problems with any product, you should detail them in a thread on the forums hoping that someone from the manufactuer will read them.
Alternatively write to the manufacturer yourself.
Or ideally - and this is what you *should* do - is go back to the retailer to resolve the problem.''

Somehow i don't think anybody from Toshiba are really going to open a can of worms and offer any help and i also don't think that the retailer bit would be any good either - do you?

Obviously it goes without saying that the thread i started this evening has been deleted!

Well smack my bum and call me Susan!!

Sorry Stuart, i've cancelled the war on Tosh! :god


So, you see - the Tosh blur threads have got to keep flowing until Toshiba speak up??????????????? Come on Toshiba don't be shy! :hiya:[/B]
 

soni

Banned
Kableman - i've just read one of your other posts over in another thread:-

'Hi fleagledog - sorry to disagree but you don't need to be taught how to spot the blurs i'm seeing on my Toshiba - they are so bad that you can't help but see them. I've looked at the Gladiator 3.16 and to be honest it didn't bother me at all - it was minor and fleeting and i agree that if this particular example had not been pointed out then i would hardly, if ever, have noticed it. The blurs i'm seeing are the same problem but 10 to 20 times worse at least!'

Looks like there are different extremes to this blurring - the blurring that i get is definately no where near as bad as Gladiator! Looks like you had it bad, bad, bad - could it be like rainbows? Some people seem them bad, some people seem them a little, and others 'like me' have never seem one! I tell you what though, i would rather see some rainbows now and again that that panning blur! Hello Toshiba :hiya: :lease:
 

fleagledog

Standard Member
Nice to know that I'm being talked about in my absence :)
Anyway, just been to see Hostage; great film and guess what? I saw blurring especially in the dark outside scenes (of which there are many). So I saw the blurring and I was nowhere near my Tosh. Explain please. Either I am seeing a different blurring from all of you in which case I'm not really seeing the blur so not a Tosh/DLP problem (in my case), or I am seeing the blur in which case it is a source problem (as I suspect). Either way, Tosh cant be blamed (no I dont work for Tosh). Somebody destroy that logic.
 

soni

Banned
-TYN- said:
Hiya Soni,
Have not been here for a while, nice to see you again. Just noticed you own the Denon dvd player and amp that i am looking at getting i'm a bit of a Denon fan "quality" (only if they made tvs it would be gold and blah blah dream). Well just wondered if you were happy with them i also cannot decide between the kef .2's or the genies.

Decisions, decisions... :)
TYN - Nice to see your back out of Hibernation! Its good to have you back! :hiya:

Trust me on this one - The Denon 3802 is a lovely Amp, it's the first one i've ever had - the reason i bought it was due to its 5 star award about 4 years ago - as i say i've had it for about 4 years and 'touch wood' i've never had a problem with it - and it really kicks ass! - i'ts volume range is from -70 down to 0 then to 15 if you know what i mean - its a little difficult to explain but it works down from -70 - 0 then from 0 - 15, but i've never had it beyond 0, as that is LOUD!

The Kef's - although i'm happy with them - i think they sound brilliant on movies and music - they have a really good surround effect with movies - but then i've got seven of em - plus the sub, but apparently i've read that music enthusiasts don't rate them because of them lacking in the stereo department - but for me their fab :thumbsup:
 

soni

Banned
KableMan said:
although Shark Tale was very impressive on normal SD DVD - thanks soni for pointing this out :smashin:

I agree soni - I too would love to see a Tosh that works perfectly too...
Although i might be a little slow in getting it, I rented Monster Inc out the other day for my 4 year old daughter, and that looked absolutely fantastic - wasn't really in to it much - just watched bits of it to see what the animation was like - but that big hairy monster - you could see every individual hair on his body!
 

KableMan

Active Member
fleagledog - all I can say is you ain't seen this blur. You must be describing natural blurs that occur all the time in movies and life in general! Try spinning round and watch the world blur before your eyes. I can cope with this sort of blurring - its natural and can be explained. The blurs i've seen on the toshiba, those that soni and TYN describe are not natural, they are not meant to be there - they are natural blurring gone bad. Check out my other post comparing the samsung and Toshiba - the samsung didn't create artifacts when faced with a pan or image in motion.

Blurring isn't the issue - its the artifacts the Toshiba creates around them when they occur that are the problem. I've never seen such a thing on any other TV or in the cinema and I can't believe you have either.

Soni - I think the gladiator painted face effect you see is the same kind of thing but I've seen it last longer and appear much larger on other movies and sources. Have you ever seen this kind of thing anywhere else? I mean on any other medium or television?
 

Razor

Member
HI Kableman, soni, TYN

TyN you were asking about HD films The Hunter is an excellant demo disc and not a bad film. Tomb Raider 1 & 2 is also a good demo disc. I also got Timeline the other day and I have only flicked through it as I have only seen the film 4 weeks ago on regular dvd.

Soni

I think your right in kicking up a fuss with Tosh over this problem. For tosh to say its a feature is crazy. Dolby Digital is a feature not bluring. Maybe you should print up a few reviews/comments made by memebers of this and other forums and forward them with a covering letter to Tosh's MD. If your letters get ignored send them again and inform Tosh that you will be sending these letters on to av magazines for help.

Monsters inc is a jaw dropper :)

Fleagledog

When you talk about blurred motion in films it can a desired effect that the director has chosen. ie a style of shooting. I dont think these members (ie. soni, kableman,tyn etc..) are counting these scenes as a problem.

What they are saying is that scences which have no blur etc on a normal crt have blur etc on their Tosh.
 

fleagledog

Standard Member
Kableman
With all due respect, I am pretty sure that I am seeing the same blur as everybody else. It is definitely not natural and not the same as a normal panning blur. I do know the difference. It was not as bad on film (because of the better source) but was still there. But, for the sake of argument, lets say that I'm not seeing it. Surely, if it is such a bad and obvious artifact (bad enough for some people to send their TVs back) then I would have to see it. Either that, or I have the only Tosh in the UK that does not show the problem and I dont believe that. Therefore, I stand by my original statement. It is the source, not the TV. I would love to hear from other people who see it on other sources. Or perhaps I am unique.
 

soni

Banned
High Guys, can't believe we're up till nearly three in the morning talking about blurs - still what the heck - its better than sleeping!

Anyway, now that the Mrs is in bed, and i can look for blurring on the TV without her knowing (she would probably collect her things and the kids and leave if she knew what i was doing - think i've gone completely mad :rolleyes: ) i've just been looking at 'The Day After Tommorrow' and to be honest, i couldn't actually see any blurring at first, i was just speechless as i forgot how good the film really looked - as the Tosh displays it really well - although there was a little at the beginning as the film first opens up, when the camera is scanning over the fronzen waters/ice, but when i paused the film, the ice was still blurred, so i wouldn't say thats a fault with the Tosh or the blurring we are talking about - as for example Gladiator and other films that the Toshiba blurs - when you hit pause - the picture is fine and not blured.

BUT - i then found some - about 12 minutes into the film when Jack arrives home, and phones his ex about Sams grades, and he walks through his library speaking on his cordless phone, and if you look at the books on the shelves, they are a complete mess - all of the straight lines of each book and the bookcase are distorted, and the writing on the ends of the books looks like there moving away out of the book and onto the next - BUT when you hit pause or play it frame by frame - it has the normal blur that you would expect from any TV/Film when the camera is focused on something in the foreground - and once you've been watching the film roll and you then move frame by frame - the natural blur looks quite clear compared with the mess that you get when the films running.

I then tried changing every setting on the DVD player, like Razor recommended, i tried interlaced, progressive, 480/576p, 720P, 1080i, changed from Multi - PAL - NTSC, and nothing has helped. :mad:

Anyway, i'm going to be a lightweight and retire now, as i've got to be up at 6! Nighty Nighty!!!! :hiya:
 

Razor

Member
Soni

Im sorry to hear you havent had any success with your Tosh. You've seem to have tried everything. I know what it is like to be haunted by faults it can drive you nuts. :mad:

It sounds like the tosh is struggling to keep up with the information sent to it in a fast moving scene. Its as if there is an information overload which produces this bluring, oil painting effect. What puzzles me is the US version doesnt display these problems. I think the only avenue left is looking at the US version of the Tosh. Is it really without these faults? If so then what spec is it? What firmware version is it? etc....

:)
 

destix

Standard Member
Just ordered the Tosh 46WM48 and after reading this forum im starting to wonder , should i cancel my order , is the blurring really that bad?

i still have time to cancel , so can anyone give me a bit of perspective on how bad this blurring is :eek:
should i order a different set?
if so which one , i dont want to go above the price of 1600 that im paying for the tosh :nono:
 

-TYN-

Member
Destix i think most people would agree you cannot possibly recommend a piece of hardware that has a serious fault, To me the the effect is quite severe and considering the amount of attension this problems getting and the amount of returned sets i think most others find it to be severe to.

But in the end it only comes down to what you think and see yourself, if you can purchase it somewhere that will accept a return (Costco) and live with it for a week and by then you will know.

Thanks for the recommendations Razor think i'll go for hunter and the tomb raider films, at least you get to see angelina jolie in more detail. :)
 

pantages

Member
Razor said:
Soni

Im sorry to hear you havent had any success with your Tosh. You've seem to have tried everything. I know what it is like to be haunted by faults it can drive you nuts. :mad:

It sounds like the tosh is struggling to keep up with the information sent to it in a fast moving scene. Its as if there is an information overload which produces this bluring, oil painting effect. What puzzles me is the US version doesnt display these problems. I think the only avenue left is looking at the US version of the Tosh. Is it really without these faults? If so then what spec is it? What firmware version is it? etc....

:)
Could be that the US uses NTSC at 60Hz?
 

soni

Banned
Razor said:
Soni

Im sorry to hear you havent had any success with your Tosh. You've seem to have tried everything. I know what it is like to be haunted by faults it can drive you nuts. :mad:

It sounds like the tosh is struggling to keep up with the information sent to it in a fast moving scene. Its as if there is an information overload which produces this bluring, oil painting effect. What puzzles me is the US version doesnt display these problems. I think the only avenue left is looking at the US version of the Tosh. Is it really without these faults? If so then what spec is it? What firmware version is it? etc....

:)

Razor, i've just been reading an old edition of the 'What Video Widescreen TV' whilst being Chauffeur driven by the wife, and i re-read the review of the Tosh. I quote 'There are a couple of DLP problems that the 46WM48P doesn't completely crack. The most noticeable of these is a sort of dotty fizzing over fast moving objects, especially where the movement is caused by a camera pan.'

It then goes onto the rainbow problem as well, but then says:-

'Both of these problems are visible on all source standards, including high definition, but they're more common, especially the fizzing noise, the lower down the picture quality scale you go.'

So, could it be that the fizzing is actually reduced with hi-def? Also, i presume the magazine tested hi-def at 720p, whereas the yanks might not be experiencing it because maybe there using 1080, which would further reduce it or not??? :confused:
 

Razor

Member
TYN

Glad to see you are expanding your HD collection. :)

Pantages

Soni tried to input a 60hz signal but got no joy. I dont think he used a NTSC disc though as he hasnt any. Maybe someone with a region 1 dvd could try.

Destix

You arent gonna have much choice around that price mark if you want a DLP set. You could get a sagem HD50 but it has got HDCP for HD material so its a bit pointless getting this set as your primary set. You can also get the LG 44' but this hasnt got any digital inputs so I would steer clear. I cant comment on performance from the LG as I have never seen it. The sagem however is a good set apart from the lack of HDCP. Hope that helps a bit.
 

Razor

Member
Soni

Some people complain that 1080i can give you an unstable picture and most prefer the 720p as a standard. HD should improve the performance of any picture and in theory should improve the Tosh. But if the Tosh cant handle large bitrates of info then I am affraid the problem will only get worst with HD. Has anyone apart from KAbleman tried HD with the Tosh. Is it worst, better or the same? Also was it 1080i or 720p?

BTW you sound as if you have your missus well trained, the only time mine one drives is when my car is in for a service.
 

supermackem

Active Member
Ive tried a bit of hd demos on the tosh, blurring was still there at 1080 and 720p pic is amazing but blur is still there. Not as bad as normal but still there, my set seems to be getting worse with blurs. I dont want to play xbox on it anymore as watching the walls bleed into multi colours and just turn into a lump of mess on the screen just puts me off games. Slow panning is a joke on this tv striaght lines of walls and objects turn into fuzzy mess facial blur painted face etc i get the lot and it seems to be getting worse. More so after attempting to play on my xbox they seem to get worse and worse all colours blurring fuzzy etc. If i go to the screen up close you can see blocks flashing on and off all over the screen. I thought it maybe the dvd player so i bought the panny with hdmi still there if a tad better. This tv is a joke really as is digital point .co.uk as is toshiba. To call it a feature is just laughable really and beyond a joke. I would send it back if a) the shop would take it back b) i wouldnt lose £100s of pounds if i managed to get them to take it back. I would advise anyone against getting this tv and this has soured my taste buds with anything toshiba related as upto now tos was the miain tv make i had bought for a long time. :mad: :mad:
 

soni

Banned
Razor said:
Soni

Some people complain that 1080i can give you an unstable picture and most prefer the 720p as a standard. HD should improve the performance of any picture and in theory should improve the Tosh. But if the Tosh cant handle large bitrates of info then I am affraid the problem will only get worst with HD. Has anyone apart from KAbleman tried HD with the Tosh. Is it worst, better or the same? Also was it 1080i or 720p?

BTW you sound as if you have your missus well trained, the only time mine one drives is when my car is in for a service.
The only time my one drives is when i let her out of the kitchen :smashin:

Sorry luv :rolleyes:
 

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