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Is the panning blur really due to the Tosh?

Discussion in 'TVs' started by soni, Apr 1, 2005.

  1. soni

    soni
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    Right Guys, I’ve been doing a little research in an attempt to get to the bottom of the blurring problem with the Tosh.

    I really do love the Tosh, I think it gives a fantastic picture but is ruined at times due to the blurring on panning. I’ve made the decision to stick by my Tosh, but would like to see if anything can be done to reduce/eliminate the blurring. It all started last night when I was watching advertising clips of new movies on Sky Box Office – and guess what? There were panning shots that didn’t have any blurring! Although I have noticed the painted face effect before on digital TV, I haven’t actually noticed any panning blur from a digital TV feed.

    It would be such a shame if owners were to return their sets because they think it’s a fault with the Tosh, if its actually not the Tosh but something else?

    I posted on a US site last night, and mentioned that I’m using the Denon 2910, and have received the following response:-

    ‘I don't know why you are having a problem with DVD's but it may be the "macroblocking bug" that plagues many players that use the Faroudja 23XX chip. The broadcast issue is called "temporal dithering" and it is something that occurs on DLP sets and is not unique to one manufacturer. I believe LCD sets have a similar problem called "motion blur".’

    I then went on to say that we are not just experiencing the blurring on the Denon, but also the Panasonic and Samsung.

    And I got the following reply:-

    ‘I'm not sure of the models you are referring to but the Panasonic S97, Samsung HD941 and the Toshiba v592 all use the Faroudja 2310 deinterlacer. Sony is one of the few that uses it's own deinterlacer so it does not suffer from the macroblocking bug. I don't know if that is the problem as I haven't seen what you are referring to but I don't have any PQ issues with my player and display. I have seen the broadcast problem though and the only time I notice it is during sporting events such as basketball with camera pans during player movement.

    I didn't have my set during the Olympics but I think that was a different problem with pixelation and I thought it was a problem with the encoders or some other hardware issue with the feeds. I believe it was most noticable during the diving if I remember reading correctly.’


    The guy that replied to my post has the Toshiba 62HMX94 running from a Sony DVP-NS975V DVD Player and has never seen any panning blur!

    Wouldn’t it be great if it is in fact something to do with the players we’re using, and when Sky HD or Blue-Ray is launched everything settles down!
     
  2. St_ve

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    Soni have you tried using your Tosh to upscale the picture instead of the DVD player
    the Optoma RD50 uses a Faroudja chip to upscale everything to 1280x720 & does a great job.
    Another thing you can try is using your PC either with VGA or a DVI to HDMI adaptor to see if it makes a difference
     
  3. KableMan

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    Hi soni - I was using an aging second generation region 1 (originally) pioneer 606d via s-video and component and I got the blur. So I wasn't using an upscaling DVD player so macroblocking should not have been an issue - so I guess I was relying on the TV's own scaling?

    I also tried playing discs via a PC using DVI->HDMI and VGA.

    I saw the blur on all of them :(

    Now that you've mentioned the two distinct problems i.e. "painted face" or "oily skin" effect and the banning "blurr" or "temporal dithering" (sounds like star trek) I can see that they are different. But I did see both on all sources barring HD where I only saw the "blurr".

    I saw the oily skin on Wil Smith in I, Robot and some blurring, and the blurr in X-Men 2. I saw the oily skin everywhere in EastEnders with blurring too. Infact I saw oily skin effects with blurring round the edges! Horrid. I saw this on analogue and most Telewest digital programmes including the new Doctor Who!!

    Unfortunately I was seeing it way too much and too often for me to be able to put it down to the source or some scaling problem - unless of course the Toshiba itself shares the same or similar deinterlacer?

    Also as I said on another thread I didn't see it on the Samsung using the same poor feed while it was appearing on the Tosh standing side-by-side.

    I wish/hope there is a solution as the Toshiba was a mighty fine set.
     
  4. soni

    soni
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    Hi Steve - I don't think there's a way of selecting which component is doing the scaling, i think its selected automatically from what i can understand - i.e., if a DVD player doesn't have an internal scaler then the Tosh takes over (i understand the Tosh's internal scaler isn't a Faroudja), but if the DVD player does have a scaler then i suppose the Tosh sits back and lets the players internal scaler do the work - but as Dalespitfire was mentioning some months back - there's no actual way of telling what component is carrying out the scaling if your using a player with one built in - so its anyones guess!

    But, i do have an old Tosh player upstairs which is about 6 years old, so-old it won't even play any CDR's, so i could try using that, although it only has a scart output. I could try the PC - as i haven't experimented with that yet - i am intending on draining you guys in the very near future of all your HD/PC knowledge, as my computer - although P4 - doesn't stream HD clips smoothly - they sought of stick and slow down - suppose its something to do with the graphics card? - but that is the least of my worries at this moment in time - as i would really like to better understand the reason for the blurring first! :smashin:
     
  5. soni

    soni
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    Kableman: I have seen the 'painted face' effect on many digital channels but i've never once seen it on any DVD's. However, with the blurring, i've seen it on many DVD's but never a digital channel? Strange!

    I've also found this piece of info which i don't quite understand:-

    'I saw the digital version. Thought it was okay, no better. Hated the film. But I have one question.

    If a film is shot digitally, why can't they solve the problem of blurry panning. In film there are not enough frames and the exposure is too long to prevent blurs while the camera moves.

    Why would this be a problem in digital?

    Todd-A-O at 30 frames per second helps. Trumbull's 60 frames per second films make it disappear. If they're going to go digital, isn't this the place to show how digital can be an improvement?'


    also

    'As for motion blur, well motion is blurry. The fact is as long as cameras have an exposure time for each frame ( I can't imagine this changing any time in our life times) you will have some blur from motion. I have always seen nasty artifacts in the motion on digital imaging which have nothing to do with natural blur. I have never noticed excessive blurring on standard 35 mm 24 frames per second film over the other formats. If you lost the blur in the frames you would have something that looked terribly unnatural like stop motion animation. Go motion was invented just to put back that natural blur missing in stop motion to make it look more real. What I do notice and feel is the biggest shortcomming in standard film is flicker. Showscan. Imax and yes digital projection are much better in this area. In fact digital projection seems to have zero flicker. I think Showscan and IMAX are great for things like Everest and other scenic documentaries but it's just too sharp and revealing for feature films. We'd just be filtering the hell out of it to the point where you'd see the filtering.'

    also

    [I]'And the problem with that "look" is that even a slow pan (say, across a landscape - we're not talking fast action here) turns into a blurry mess. One thing that really bugs me when watching movies.

    Yes. It's that 'flicker' that others have talked about. 24 fps is too slow, and we've simply had to except it all of these years.
    I forget how 24 fps was standardized those many years ago. There were many technical reasons for it. I think most films in the silent era ran around 18 fps.

    So, why not start fresh with digital? Why not start with higher frame rates while we're in the development stages before it's too late?'[/I]


    What do you guys make of this? :confused:
     
  6. St_ve

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    I know some DVD players are able to select upscaling or not if you read the last 300 threads you're bound to come across it :devil:
    or maybe somebody will post it for you.
    I know some Tosh owners say they don't see it so is it a fault that seems to affect a large number of sets.
    Why don't you take your DVD player into Comets or Curry's & check out the Tosh as a new customer.

    Check out the sticky Optoma section there is a link don't shudder at the judder there is information in the article about how a film is made & blur & fast & slow pans are disscused.
     
  7. Razor

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    Hi Soni

    You've been busy :)

    If you want the display to do the scaling input comp-i, if your inputing a scalled pic then input comp-p.

    On the Optoma you have 2 seperate inputs for this. If you havent on your tosh then there may be an option to switch on the display.

    Do you get any difference in blur etc from 50 hz to 60hz (NTSC)? I was going to ask you this when I first started to read your first post. The tosh may not have these problems at 60Hz as its roots may stem from the US version. ie. a US display display converted to work in the UK.

    Or are they totally different sets like the eg. RD50 in the US & UK are different sets but have the same name and exterior looks. Can the US tosh display PAL? The US Optomas cant, in fact alot of US displays cant display PAL. The US market see's no need for it.

    Another point which might have effect on the bluring is the lack of a Faroudja chip, as all the other sets dont seem the display the bluring effect except the Tosh. I dont know what chip the LG44 uses (never seen one, I think they are a myth ;) ) but the Optoma, Sagem, Samsung all use the Faroudja chip and there isnt any reports of these problems.

    Soni if you can find the cause of the problem I suppose your half way there to a solution. I hope I have come up with a few ideas whgich might help you get your solution. :smashin:

    BTW I have not seen this Bluring etc... on my RD65.
     
  8. St_ve

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    :lesson: Razor just because you can't see these blur's on your RD65 it does not mean they don't exist. I bet fleageldog could find them for you.
    You are pobably doing something stupid like not drinking enough whisky before watching your set. :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
     
  9. soni

    soni
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    Steve - On the Denon i have the scaling options of 480/576p, 720p, and 1080i, so if i set it to the 480/576p, i suppose this will let the Tosh take over?

    I will try this first thing tommorrow morning and see how the blurr looks then, i've allready tried 1080i and it doesn't make a difference :mad:
     
  10. soni

    soni
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    Razor - That sounds a very logical idea that you've come up with about the NTSC setting on the DVD player - although if its a PAL disc, and i set it to NTSC, won't the DVD player automatically change back over to PAL, as i haven't got any NTSC discs :confused:

    Although the TV hasn't got a Faroudja chip, the DVD player definately has, thats one facility that i specifically looked for when looking for a player - as i read that this was a serious let down for the Toshiba!

    Also, the bit about 'If you want the display to do the scaling input comp-i, if your inputing a scalled pic then input comp-p.' What does the comp stand for? Component? Does the i and p stand for interlaced and progressive, as i have 720p and 1080i input modes on the Denon, but i've tried switching these and it doesn't make a difference, but will definately give the 480/576p settings a try tommorrow, and will also try the NTSC setting to see if the player will play a PAL whilst set to NTSC - i'm willing to give anything a try - but your recommendation definately make logical sense to me - and i allways like the logical method :smashin:
     
  11. pwrslide

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    sagem hd45 have motion blur on sky channels but not on dvd.
     
  12. St_ve

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    I've no idea why Hollywood still make films at 24fps they have to be very carefull when panning not to introduce judder & blurs it must make it a lot harder than if they simply filmed at high enough speed.
    Maybe they will be forced to film at higher rate because of high definition it will make it much harder to disguise any flaws.

    The main reason Hollywood changed from 18fps to 24fps was that was the minimun speed at which the soundtrack needed when Talkies came in
    somewhere around 1930
     
  13. KableMan

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    Hi soni - the vast majority of my DVDs are region 1 NTSC (as is my player originally) and I saw the blurr on them too - infact it was quite bad on the Band of Brothers documentary disc, Spider-Man 2 and even in T2 Ultimate Edition, plus of course Gladiator - but interestingly my 3.16 painted face effect wasn't too bad. The most obvious examples of painted skin was in I, Robot and blurring was in X-Men 2 and both are region 2. I also saw blurring in Spider-Man 1 which is region 4 PAL.

    I think the problem with talking about "blurring" is that is sounds reasonable that any image would blurr when in motion and I think when your quoted source talks about eliminating it and the resulting stop motion effect I think we're talking at cross purposes. I think the difference is between intentional blurring due to the camera literally moving to fast - just like if you were to spin round suddenly and try to focus - and this artificial or exentuated blur that shows up all sorts of artifacts in the image that aren't really there.

    I popped into comet last night and demo'd I, Robot and X-Men 2 on the Toshiba and Samsung side-by-side and i've posted my findings here:

    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1576142#post1576142

    To summarise - the Toshiba blurred as and where expected but the samsung didn't at all. But I did see more clearly on the samsung that the film blurred and the Toshiba just can't handle it and fizzies and introduces artifacts and the painty effect whereas the samsung makes it look more natural and so unnoticeable. The difference was quite stark at points. Also X-Men 2 is a crap disc that has artifacts built in. The Toshiba even had problems with the DLP demo disc (although it was super sharp and vibrant most of the time :smashin: )

    So the source will make the Toshiba better or worse but IMO can't eliminate the problem. It's down to the Toshiba's scaling/deinterlacing mechanism which simply can't cope with these scenes and can even make them worse. The better the source the better the quality of the source blur or skin tones which merely minimise the errors the Toshiba makes.

    This means of course that I can kiss goodbye to my £300 as unfortunately Toshiba are going to say this is a feature and not a fault :rolleyes:

    :(
    KableMan
     
  14. LV426

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    I should imagine that it's because there are thousands of Cinemas around the world with 24fps projectors in them.......
     
  15. soni

    soni
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    Nigel - Have you got any comments to add on the Toshiba blurring?
     
  16. Razor

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    Soni comp-i is an interlaced picture and comp-p is a progressive picture. Try inputing via comp-p and let the dvd player scaler to produce the pic. i dont know if PAL 60 might help you as this is the nearest you can get to NTSC with out having a NTSC source. Not ideal but worth a try.

    If you do input via comp-p your dvd player which has a Faroudja chip should do the scaling I would suspect you set it to 720p.

    Is there anyway you could findout if the US and UK models are the same? Maybe contact Tosh's techinical helpline.


    Steve

    I wonder if fleagledog see's bluring in normal day to day life. Maybe some glasses are in need.
     
  17. -TYN-

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    or maybe he likes the blurr effect so much he had it built into is other displays :rotfl:

    Wierd how my displays or gladiator dvd dont show Tosh blurr hmmm.
     
  18. dalespitfire

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    Tosh Guys......we'll just have to live with it!!! It's there and theres nothing we can do to take it away I'm afraid. The ins and outs of the blurring issue have been discussed since way back in January (hello Phunt if you are still around!!) and it seems now to have come full circle again.

    In my eyes, if you have a £1500 product (whatever it is) that is causing you so much dissatisfaction, you really have to bite the bullet and return it or it will drive you insane. To be having problems with every source you put through the set, to me smacks of a fault, when the majority of us only grumble about the odd SKY programme causing grief.

    Oil painting issues seem to be just an inherent problem of 90% of the DLP's out there (10% pesky Optoma owners - lucky gits).

    Maybe I'm being flippant because I hardly see it anymore (apart from the same programmes over and over again - you know the trouble makers), and I have never at any time see any sort of blurring on a DVD or PC feed, be it panning or otherwise.

    I'm sorry that some of you are really having problems, but I love my Tosh (despite what the detractors might have to say) and I for one can't wait for some more mainstream Hi Def material to start showing.

    That's when we should all reap the benefits of our (superior!) sets.
     
  19. Razor

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    Theres only 6 of us about :rotfl:

    Dale have you tried any HD material with your Tosh? Kableman did and the results were disapointingly the same ie bluring etc...
     
  20. -TYN-

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    Well said Dale,
    god if people gave the view you just have right at the beginning that would be that and this thread and many others would of died out long ago. Well heres hoping......or maybe another thread will pop up blaming something else ?
     
  21. St_ve

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    Reading posts on the Toshiba it seems some Toshiba sets do not have these faults so i don't think the issue is done & dusted yet.
    If all Toshiba sets suffered from a common fault one of the Toshiba owners should post a report in the DLP problems Sticky advising prospective owners what to look out for when they demo the set.
    If they are faults with individual sets Toshiba should fix them.
    A lot of threads pop up of the "which is better variety " & there allways seems to be at least one Tosh owner saying how great the set is without pointing out any faults.
     
  22. -TYN-

    -TYN-
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    Well i have not seen one without the problem and i viewed loads before returning my set and i still make a point of checking now.

    I would rather believe my own eyes and not somebody elses sometimes biased or self comforting/reassuring opinion.

    Has anybody who has returned one (not a current owner) since seen a perfect one ?

    Until i see a perfect one myself i will not be convinced.
     
  23. Razor

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    well said steve
     
  24. Elephant Man

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    I have only seen blurring once from HD material, which was from D-VHS of X-men. Other movies I robot, Man on fire are so fine.
    This blurring from corrie and other stuff is very embarrassing when you have friends or family round. I had the engineer come round only to tell me this is normal, so im stuck with this TV. It will do for the time being.
     
  25. -TYN-

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    Yes Elephant man i think on HD material which is nearly upon us this blurr problem is no where near as noticable and therefore very soon your purchase will seem a lot lot rosier.
     
  26. KableMan

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    Hi Steve - I think, having seen the Tosh in comet yesterday (for the second time) and reading TYN's post again and how closely it described what i've seen, that the Toshiba sets are all the same (and they all work the same) and its actually the owners, and what they see, that are different.

    There are clearly too issues, i.e. painted/oily faces/skin and motion blurring/fizzing, but only some owners notice them all the time, some notice them some of the time and some don't notice them at all. I wish I were the latter but i'm the former. This is why some owners only rave about the TV, and there's a lot to be positive about, and some go on about the "blur" all the time. This time I fall into the latter group - mainly because I read all there was to read and decided that the price and overall positive feedback would outweigh any minor blurring issues and I bought but I was wrong and as a result have been very very disappointed and its gonna cost me £300 'cos there's no way Toshiba are gonna fix it 'cos its a "feature" not a fault.

    So I want to talk about it to warn others so they know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Ultimately as many have said you must demo before you buy and if the blurr/painted effects don't bother you then buy the Toshiba and you will be rewarded with a superb TV but if you're a picky telly addict/movie buff like me then you are bound to notice it at some point (if not instantly like I did) and you will be disappointed.

    Unfortunately seeing any such artifacts on HD was one artifact too many for me on a TV that is designed for hi-definition. Again other owners may be more forgiving or may not have noticed anything and if so more power too them but for me this was my acid test and the Tosh let me down. I hope by posting such feedback I can warn others to make a purchase with their own eyes open.

    Dale - check out my posts about my demo of the samsung alongside the Toshiba and it did not suffer from any of these problems. So I dispute your statement that 90% of DLP's suffer with this problem. But I do agree with you that if you are disatisfied then you should return the set if you can as i'm doing.

    Cheers
    KableMan

    PS. This is a great forum and there can't be too many posts on any subject - every post has merit so the more the merrier :)
     
  27. -TYN-

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    A very well written post Kableman,
    I to could not put up with the blurr on hd because as you know once you have seen it you can see it on any source all i meant was is that it is far less noticable.

    Also which wmv-hd movies would you recommend, the choice is limited to some pretty poor films. :confused:
     
  28. soni

    soni
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    I've experienced exactly the same, every set i've looked at has had the blur - in fact, if anybody has a Tosh in Kent that doesn't have this so called 'feature' then i would love to take a look at it just for 5 minutes - then if it doesn't blur i can go straight to Toshiba and get this 'feature' removed from my TV once and for all!
     
  29. -TYN-

    -TYN-
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    Hiya Soni,
    Have not been here for a while, nice to see you again. Just noticed you own the Denon dvd player and amp that i am looking at getting i'm a bit of a Denon fan "quality" (only if they made tvs it would be gold and blah blah dream). Well just wondered if you were happy with them i also cannot decide between the kef .2's or the genies.

    Decisions, decisions... :)
     
  30. KableMan

    KableMan
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    Cheers TYN - Meet the Fockers, when it comes out, has got to be the best movie. The IMAX movies look really great for HD - not sure how good they are as real movies though. Maybe St_ve and Razor can recommend some? BTW I saw the blur on Rules of Attraction (wmv) and In Good Company (divx). Madagascar and Shark Tale (divx) both looked amazing though - although Shark Tale was very impressive on normal SD DVD - thanks soni for pointing this out :smashin:

    I agree soni - I too would love to see a Tosh that works perfectly too...
     

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