Is the Denon AVC-A10SE DTS Discrete ready ?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by ThunderSUB, Dec 20, 2000.

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  1. ThunderSUB

    ThunderSUB
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    Hi,

    I have the following system :

    B&W DM602 S2 (front)
    B&W DM601 S2 (rear)
    B&W CC6 S2 (center)
    B&W ASW1000 (subwoofer)
    Denon AVC-A10SE (amp.)
    Sony DVP-S7700 (dvd player)

    This system is great for DTS/Dolby Digital 5.1 movies.

    I have bought some R1 titles that feature a Dolby Digital Surround EX / DTS ES audio track.

    I would like to take full advantage from my system and dvd titles so I was considering purchasing a Denon POA-T10 2 channel amp. to power the rear (center) surrounds.

    The problem is, as my living room is a bit small (19.6 ft x 10.4 ft), my couch is placed against the rear wall (long one), so there's no room for rear satellite speakers.

    I think I saw somewhere in the Net, a pair of B&W DS6 speakers placed in the ceiling, just above the listening position, as rear surrounds.

    Will this be a satisfactory solution for me ?

    Has anyone ever tried this ?

    Are the B&W DS6 (wall mounted) a good option ?

    Is my Denon amp. DTS ES Discrete ready or just DTS ES (matrix ?)ready ?

    Any info/help/advice given will be appreciated.

    Thanks !

    ------------------
    Claudio Subtil
    Lisbon, Portugal
    http://drive.to/thundersub
     
  2. Guest

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    I'm afraid the A10SE is EX/ES-matrix only.
     
  3. swami

    swami
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    Hey,

    I think i had the same problem. at first i don't beleive that the avc-a10se has a Matrix encoded surround back channel but fully discrete. I know this because i played The Haunting DTS-ES and the surround back channel is fully discrete. I mean there is comming sound from the back channel that doesn't play on the surround left or right. Thats discrete isn't it.
    Further I have the same problem of a small living room with the sofa against the rear wall. I just placed a speaker above the couch. I think that work perfectly ( at least for the one's sitting on the sofa and thats where you will sit! Further i use the B&W ds6 surround speakers. I must say i was stunned when i heard them on my a10se. I don't think that they are usefull for playing music also due to the limited frequency response but for DVD they are awesome. The sound is diffuus (is that english) so it sounds a lot like in the cinema. You just don't know where the sound is comig from.

    Home that explains it a bit
    Good luck!
     
  4. Jim Robson

    Jim Robson
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    Hi!

    I have just recently taken delivery of my Denon AVC-A1SE and this is what it says on the Denon site "The AVC-A1SE is the world's first AV component that is equipped with the DTS-ES (true discrete) 6.1 decoder"

    Here's what Denon say about the Denon AVC-10SE "The World's First A/V Amplifier with THX Surround EX
    Denon's tradition of excellence and innovation in audio and home theater continues with the introduction of the AVC-A10SE, the world's first A/V Amplifier that combines Dolby Digital, DTS, Lucasfilm's THX Ultra 5.1 post-processing and also the newest surround technology, Lucasfilm's THX Surround EX decoding.
    Denon's newest A/V Amplifier, the AVC-A10SE, continues the AVC-A1D's heritage of excellence and innovation by incorporating the newest surround technology - Lucasfilm's THX Surround EX decoding, and is another world's first for Denon. Optimized for the latest in DVD soundtracks and for future audio formats, the AVC-A10SE brings a new level of sonic performance in home theater A/V Amplifiers."

    It would appear that it doesn't do DTS-ES Discrete after all. :( I think you have actually reversed Matrix and Discrete definitions?

    Regards

    Jim :D

    Here's some info from the HCC Glossary.
    "DTS-ES DISCRETE 6.1, DTS-ES MATRIX 6.1
    A new 6.1-channel surround sound format. The extra channel is intended to drive one or more 'back surround' - or centre rear - speakers located between the left and right rear ones. The sixth channel will be 'ignored' by regular 5.1 DTS decoders, hence the need for DTS-ES Matrix 6.1. This format - like Dolby Digital EX - encodes the back-surround channel via an analogue matrix, and delivers it via the rear channels."

    It doesn't actually mention DTS-ES Discrete 6.1 except in the header!! Odd!

    [ 13-06-2001: Message edited by: Jim Robson ]
     
  5. Matty N

    Matty N
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    Hi all,

    following on, the only components currently (last time I counted) licensed by DTS to support DTS ES Discrete 6.1 are both Denon Amplifier/Receivers and they are the AVC-A1SE and the 3801. Discrete refers to the encoding process whereby the surround rear (to use DTS terminology) is encoded as a separate component in the bitstream, similar to surround left or the centre channel. As such the sound information it contains is completely separate to any of the other channels. However, DTS ES Matrix extracts information from the Surround left and surround right signals to drive the rear surround channel. To some extent the parts of the signal destined for rear surround will be masked in surround left and right to preserve the effect - hence they all sound different.

    The B&W DS6 is really designed for wall mounting and is best done in horizontaly in line with the listening position and vertically about 1 metre above it. The speakers are handed so the they need to be placed the correct way round for the best effect. Using them directly above the listening position due to a rear wall sofa shouldn't be a problem, in actual fact this may suit the room better and offer a more diffuse sound field when you need it. The DS6 is not ideally ceiling mounted when being used for rear duties really.

    I would probably opt for 601's firing directly across the back of the sofa, behind you where possible. Adjust the toeing to tune it to the room and your liking. Greater front to rear merging can be achieved by toeing it toward the room, toeing away increases rear ambiance in most cases. DS6's above the two main seating positions, separated by a third of the distance between the surround left and right.

    Beware though, the DS6's are reasonably dated now and still fetch a high price from retailers. There are better dipolar speakers to be had for the money, but sticking with B&W's voicing may be preferable.

    Hope this helps a little,

    Matt
     
  6. Reiner

    Reiner
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    I know I am repeating myself but also keep in mind that the DS6 were designed for DPL and have a limited frequency range only (up to 8kHz) which makes them somewhat unsuitable for todays DD/DTS surround sound, especially multichannel music if that's of any interest to you.
    That said they are not bad but just 'technically limited'.

    As for the original problem the AVC-10SE does not support DTS ES discrete, what you here from the rear center (Ex/Es speakers) is the matrix decoded signal, it is not discrete.
    Basically the same way Dolby Pro-Logic extracts the center signal from the stereo L&R soundtrack, i.e. the dialog will be more focused on the center while the fronts L&R play the score.
    For DD/DTS (5.1) all channels are carried seperately on the DVD and this is called discrete.

    IMHO there is no way of upgrading the 10SE to DTS ES Discrete unless a 6.1 decoder would be made available (highly unlikely) which could be connected to the 7.1 input.
     
  7. Kitch

    Kitch
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    i thought if u hooked up the poa-t10 2 channel power amp to the 10se u would then get DTS es discrete 6.1 ?
     
  8. Matty N

    Matty N
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    You will then have 7 channels of similarly matched amplification to drive the 7 speakers, but the signals going to the surround back / rear surround will always be extracted from the surround left and right signals. As such, the system is not Discrete, even though the amplification, technically, is capable.

    The discrete/matrix issue is in the processing, not the amplification.
     
  9. jimcarney

    jimcarney
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    Hi guys I have a Avc 10SE I would like to know if I bought the Denon power amp for a 5.1 set up would it improve the sound as in a
    pre amp / power amp set{stereo}. In other words is it only for 6.1&7.1 set ups.
    Jim :confused:
     
  10. Reiner

    Reiner
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    You can use the power amp to improve stereo (or rather front channel) performance while maintaining a 5.1 setup.
    Just run the (front) pre-outs into the power amp and that's it.

    Or you add the power amp, re-route the channels in the setup of the 10SE and upgrade to 6.1/7.1 matrix *) which would require you to buy some additonal speakers.

    *) Correctly called 3/2:3.1
     

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