Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Dimmy, Nov 30, 2003.
As the thread title asks, is it?
Details of the replacement for the AVR5803 (american A1SR) are due to be announced at the CEDIA show in the USA in January I believe.
Will look forward to this...
Perhaps this is what I'll upgrade to instead of a Pre/Power combo. The specs shall tell.
Or keep an eye out for the Denon Pre/Power combo.
I saw a picture of it on these very forums a few months ago, and again in last month's What Video TV.
Looks very tasty and promising indeed - and monsterously large.
Can't wait until more details are announced.
That was the horrendously expensive (25 grand) Pre/Power/Video Processor/DVD setup. There's supposed to be another more affordable Pre/Power combo appearing that will be based upon the new 5803/A1SR replacement.
It'll be intreaguing to see how they market the Pre/Power combo as having advantages over the similarly priced One Box amp...
Rotel have been making stand alone processors based on their receivers for years. The RSP966 and RSP976 were almost direct copies of the receivers, with the amplifiers removed. I also believe that the RSX-1055 is the basis for the RSP-1066, though I could be wrong. How do Rotel market this? Simply by hiking the price of the processors up, changing a couple of buttons and never mentioning that one was the basis of the other.
But the matching poweramp - the RMB1075 - is vastly superior to the poweramps in the RSX-1055 Russaff .
Not to mention the RSP-1098 with it's cool LCD - no such receiver in the Rotel range.
Well, I haven't heard the RSP-1098, so I can't offer comment. If talk is to be believed, however, it is supposed to be a bit of a star.
I have always liked Rotel poweramps, and have owned both the 985mkII and 1075. I found the 1075 is better than the A1SE's internal amplification, never mind the 1055! That's not the point though: If a processor is based on a reveiver, sans poweramp stage, why are we charged more for less? I can just see Denon going down the same route, is all.
At some point in the near future i will be buying some new amplification .Ive noticed the rrp of the harmon kardon 8500 is now 1500 quid,whats your opinion of this amp to the rotels youve heard,would you say it would be a good match for my m&ks ,being good on the music side of things is important too.
I suppose the only way to answer this Russaf, would be to compare the processing performance of an RSX-1055 and RSP-1066...
Yes, this is absolutely true. However, I think that I have muddied the waters by talking about two things at once, here. To clarify, my points are:
1) Rotel has successfully marketed their separate processors, which are themselves based on Rotel's own receiver line-up. This is done by simply not stating the Processors origin and keeping the price refreshingly high. This being the case, I don't think Rotel processors sound good, or are worth the money. I am aware that the 1055 is more than the 1066, so perhaps I should give Rotel the benefit of this one.
2) Denon however, is a bit different. Denons top tier integrateds have stellar processing abilities, held back by restricted amplifiers. So, for Denon, it would ironically make more sense for them to use Rotels marketing scheme than Rotel. I know this as I have tried a 1075 on a friends A1SE which he had on home dem. The poweramp improved that amplifier, not by a huge amount, but the A1SE was demonstrably improved by the 1075. With the A1SRs replacement having even better processing, I can only assume that the future integrated would be even more restricted in performance. Therefore, by re-using the receivers processor stage and partnering it to a better separate poweramp, Denon would have a better performing system, for little extra R&D.
The 8500 is a great AV integrated that sounds better than either Marantz or Denons top of the line kit. The Harman has huge reserves of current and can handle tough speaker loads easily; your M&Ks included. The 8500 has a huge toroidal transformer, backed up by a smaller frame one. The 8500 also has 60,000mf of capacitance, which is quite a bit (though not as much as a dedicated poweramp). I find my amp has a surprisingly smooth and refined sound, ideal for stereo or musical listening. In fact, when I took my amp back to the shop (I thought there was something wrong, but it was just me) the staff put it on in their stereo dem room. There was a pair of Sonus Faber Concertos hooked up to a very expensive AVI stereo amp and Marantz CD player. My 8500 replaced the stereo amp for the demonstration and while we were in the room listening to my Harman, the boss in the shop walked in. He asked why we were listening to the AVI, rather than my harman commenting The AVI amp does sound good through those speakers, doesnt it?
So if a £1500 AV amp can fool a dealer into thinking it was a £1500 stereo amp, then its a goodun in my book!
Interesting findings Russel, and perhaps this means lower range Denon models - such as the AVR2803 and AVR3803, which borrow the Dolby/DTS Processor from the A1SR - would make excellent processors for poweramps like the Rotel.
I dunno if the 3803 et al has the same processing/DAC's as the A1SR. Certainly there are several different Sharc processors and some of them are more capable than others. I would suspect that the 3803 uses a cheaper derivative than the A1SR and lesser quality DACs. Still, I think youre right in that some mid-range receivers do have excellent processors and would benefit from a poweramp.
Russell - it's the same processor, there's just one in the 3803/2803, and two in the A1SR (The second being for THX Post Processing).
The 3803 uses the same Burr Brown DACs as the A1SR (I think).
That's what I originally thought but the A1SR uses Dual Hammerhead Ultra Sharcs (600 MIPS each) whereas the 3803 uses a single Melody 100 Hammerhead Sharc processor.
The A1SR has 16 x Burr Brown PCM1738E DAC's (DSD capable) and the 3803 has 16 x Burr Brown PCM1791 DAC's.
The 3803 is still a superb Receiver and has excellent specs/features for it's price.
The A1SR has 66,000mf of capacitance (admittedly for seven channels though rather than the five of the HK).
The HK 8500 is a rather superb piece of kit, nearly bought one whilst waiting for my Denon to be upgraded.
I'm pretty sure the RMB-1075 has 80,000mF Of Reserve Capacitance...
Although I did think the efficiency on transformers inside poweramps gave more indication to 'real world power' than the actual capacitance.
The processors in the A1SR Are indeed Melody Devices 'Ultra' Sharcs, given the name Hammerhead because they're doubled up.
The processor in the 3803 - despite Denon's and Reviewer's Claims - shouldn't be referred to as 'Hammerhead' because there's only one, but I do believe the processor is essentially the same as one from the A1SR, they just 'Shortened' the same down to something more memorable (The original name for the processor in the A1SR Being : Ultra Analog's 21161 HammerHead SHARC 32-bit processors).
I am sure there are differences between the 21161 (as used in the high end tag) and the 3803 Melody chip. The chip in the a1sr is still called the 21161.
Where did you get this information?
While the transformer will define the total power provided the capacitance will effect how smooth the voltage will be after converting from AC to DC and also provide a buffer when lot's of power is demanded by the load.
The smaller the capacitance the faster the signal will 'break down'. Thus both is important, the power handling of the transformer and the capacitance.
Who said size doesn't matter?
Reviews and Denon I believe .
Just comfirmed that these chips are very different.
Go to http://www.analog.com/processors/productsDatasheets/dataSheets.html
Thanks Timmy B .
Stick with dedicated processor I shall.
I don't understand all the MFLOPs and MFIPS and stuff but from a quick look it appears that the melody is only for sound (DTS, DD etc.) where as the 21161 is more advanced and can cater for Applications in Audio, Medical, Military, Wireless Communications, Graphics, Imaging, Motor-Control, and Telephony.
Datasheet for a1sr chip http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/508491233ADSP-21161N_a.pdf
Datasheet for melody:
Separate names with a comma.