is sky HD real HD?

Discussion in 'Sky Digital TV Forum' started by SILVERBACK, Mar 13, 2006.

  1. SILVERBACK

    SILVERBACK
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2001
    Messages:
    3,844
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    72
    Location:
    birkenhead
    Ratings:
    +82
    not sure if this has been asked and i did a quicksearch and came up clean.ok here is my question,i noticed on the HD epg that the likes of king arthur,man on fire etc etc are on there but what i was surprised to see was rubbish like "the crazy canucks" and a few other made for tv films.now how the hell can the crazy canucks be HD ? surely the master tape or whatever the source for the film would be would need to be filmed on a HD format?

    or do i have it completely wrong :rotfl: :rotfl:
     
  2. paul1967

    paul1967
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,258
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +65
    I'm thinking the same after seeing some of the programing lists
     
  3. neilmcl

    neilmcl
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2004
    Messages:
    6,238
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    Nottingham
    Ratings:
    +292
    Perhaps it would be better to wait until Sky HD is actually lauanched to see what's on the schedule rather than speculating with the current EPG. As it is they have said that HD will be a mixture of "real" HD and upscaled SD.
     
  4. Lin3ar

    Lin3ar
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,857
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,777
    I am no expert but from what I can gather, most if not all films are made to such a degree that you can get a high def transfer from them.Hence, 15 year old films are on the HD-DVD/BlueRay release schedule.
    Also, I think that the MovieHD channel is just mirrowing one of the other movie channels.When HD is released, it won't be showing a lot of the rubbish.
     
  5. Nick_UK

    Nick_UK
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2004
    Messages:
    9,748
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Ratings:
    +270
    Two points - a 35mm master film can give excellent HD results, so if the original is on film, there's no problem. Secondly, if you read the SkyHD small print carefully, the Sky HD channels will only show HD part-time - the rest of the time they will be showing scaled-up SD.
     
  6. White Noise

    White Noise
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    340
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Huddersfield
    Ratings:
    +6
    With hundreds if not thousands of films already transferred to HD, there can't be any excuse for this on the movie channel.
     
  7. Daddy k

    Daddy k

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2004
    Messages:
    9,083
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    coventry
    Ratings:
    +1,351
    to be fair id be happy with a scaled up pic and less compresion on all channels!
    true hd progs will be a bonus!

    some channels look great as it is i just wish they all looked as good hence i hope they use less compression.

    hopefully with the hd bandwagon and popularity of 37"+ tvs/lcds/plasmas etc they will be forced to increase bandwidth etc etc as more of us see the problems of the current compression/bandwidth
     
  8. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,483
    saw planet earth last night, great prog. only problem was all the compression, admitedley not too bad but could be alot better.

    however even at full bitrate it wouldnt look anywhere near as good as the HD version :thumbsup:
     
  9. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    How does anyone know this? Is there somewhere you can download both versions?
     
  10. czytt

    czytt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Essex (someone has to)
    Ratings:
    +40
    There is no excuse on the movie channels, since any movie shot on film can be transferred to HD.

    I don't think they're going to take a movie through an SD telecine process, then upscale to HD.

    Jerry
     
  11. czytt

    czytt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Essex (someone has to)
    Ratings:
    +40
    Because some people have seen high definition TV (on a screen big enough to tell the difference, of course), and it's better than SD. Period.

    Jerry
     
  12. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    Not saying its not true but I would like to judge for myself rather than be told. :) I certainly agree that the HD Ive seen is better than the SD I have seen but I dont think Ive ever seen SD at the Highest bitrate. Anyone know where this could be downloaded and what a high bitrate is for SD?
     
  13. czytt

    czytt
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    512
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Essex (someone has to)
    Ratings:
    +40
    Absolutely right - trust your own eyes, nobody else's.

    If you want to see SD at the highest bitrate, pick a top quality DVD. You'll never see it on Sky. :)

    Jerry
     
  14. mark800

    mark800
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,351
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Huntingdon
    Ratings:
    +2,240
    I think it's going to be interesting.

    If you watch Sky Movies and a DVD of the same film (at the same time!), the DVD looks much better.

    HD will make Sky Movies look better, but the question is how it will compare with the DVD. We'll have to wait and see. I suspect it will look better.

    For the ultimate, get HD-DVD or Bluray :)
     
  15. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,483
    yea sorry for the confusion, there is no "top bitrate" but sky and dvds are limited to a top bitrate, dvd having a higher bitrate economically speaking.

    watching SD vs HD i know that planet earth will look stunning in HD.

    i've watched the sky clips on my tv vs the DTV version of planet earth and the HD clips were FAR superior.... just cant wait till planet earth HD arrives! :D
     
  16. mark800

    mark800
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,351
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Huntingdon
    Ratings:
    +2,240
    I'm just hoping Planet Earth will be broadcast in HD in the USA, and makes its way onto Usenet....:smashin:
     
  17. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    Agree with that. I ordered a box office movie the other day and the quality was not even better than Sky Movies!

    I'd love to see a SD broadcast up at about 15 mbps. Hopefully when Sky HD launches one of the TV's in Comets will be hooked up via RGB scart in error and I will be able to compare the HD channels in SD.
     
  18. wyrdness

    wyrdness
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2005
    Messages:
    278
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +15
    15mbps?! You do know that most DVDs are only about 6mbps, don't you?

    99.999% of the population wouldn't notice any difference between SD at 6mbps and 15mbps, so why waste expensive bandwidth?
     
  19. Member 55145

    Member 55145
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    12,082
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +3,483
    yea, because remember, a "monster scart cable RRP £79.99" will give you a much better picture than a component or HDMI cable" :rolleyes:
    sometimes you just have to laugh at sales people dont you? :D
     
  20. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    Yep but as HD is going to be up around that rate out of curiosity I would just like to see how SD and HD compares at this rate.

    As I say I never seen anything above DVD quality so it would be interesting to judge for myself. I assume that DVD's would be higher but due to the disk space? Ive also read people saying that a good quality DVD is more about 9mbps.
     
  21. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,846
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +975




    Not much point and that would be assuming the mpeg2 decoder is a SKY digibox could even handle a 15mbps stream which is highly unlikely.

    Putting aside the limitations of a DVD9 disc there is simply no point in throwing so much data into a 720*576 video stream, there is a balance between compression and picture quality which has been achieved in the better DVD transfers.
    If you wanted then you could buy yourself a Superbit DVD movie, slightly higher bitrate but most consider them a bit of a ripoff/marketing device since if the original transfer had been done right then that would be more than suitable for a SD display.
     
  22. Lin3ar

    Lin3ar
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2005
    Messages:
    6,857
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,777
    I have watched the demos on the SkyHD website and people have said that these are not proper HD.
    The quality is fantastic though, compared with what I normally watch.Is this just SD but with higher bitrates?
     
  23. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    Ok but SD panels look way better fed a HD feed Ive seen the Panny PE50 and it looked way better than any SD Ive seen. Therefore I assume that the better the quality of SD the better the picture will look.

    I assume though that the easist way of seeing this would be to view the SKy HD channels via RGB scart so I will wait till then.
     
  24. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,846
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +975



    As broadcast HD and SD will use different codecs there is little point in comparing bitrates, the two codecs are different in the compression routines and mpeg4 for example is designed to handle macroblocking far more efficently.

    You've never compared a HD trailer or downloaded a bit of mpeg2 HD from the net and compared it to a DVD or SD source on your PC?
    A DVD9 has around 9gig of capacity but you'll find a lot of movies fit easily on a DVD5 disc (4.4gig). The way mpeg2 works means that there are times when reducing the compression makes no difference to a scene and decoding hardware in DVD's have limitations despite the mpeg2 standard making allowances for 15mbps peaks.

    A good quality DVD will average around 6mbps, Superbits titles may be encoded upto 8mbps (video and audio).
     
  25. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    No I think this is HD but at a lower bitrate than HD will need. I understand that the Sky Demo's are at about 10mbps MPEG2 but for HD to look good you need the equiv of 15-18mpbs.
     
  26. blakey1

    blakey1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,781
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Ratings:
    +40
    I'm not that great with computers! All Ive managed to do is download the Aplle trailers at 720p and 480p. I could not see any difference but I accept that my 19inch LCD monitor is not the best to see what I'm looking for. I assume maybe watching HD DVD compared to Component DVD will be the best way for me to compare.
     
  27. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,846
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +975




    Yep.
    The general opinion is that any display if feed a higher quality source will look better. For SD only just look at DVD compared to broadcast digital, the evidence is pretty compelling but the lines blur when you compared standard DVD to a SUperbit DVD, the higher bitrates can be wasted depending upon the capabilites of the SD display.

    As for a HD source compared to a SD source.
    Well the difference will be even more obvious than comparing good SD to poor SD on the same panel.
    A HD source (1280*720 or 1920*1080) downscaled to a SD resolution will outperform the same content which is broadcast in SD since it has so much more information to start with and when using mpeg4 the encoding system is more advanced removing many of the weak points of mpeg2.

    If HD receivers was cheap enough for everyone to upgrade and broadcasters to support them with content then it would be a far better option than the current SD offerings no matter what bitrate was used.

    No way to watch the SKY HD channels without a SKY+HD box and even then when the retailers have really units to demo you are still left with the questions over setup and the differences between individual panels and technologies. A poor panel (or good panel poorlt setup) can make HD look poor while at the same time performing well with a SD source due to the lower demands, you could look at that panel and dissmiss HD:)
     
  28. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,846
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +975



    Depending upon how you are viewing them there may be some scaling going on on the display, always tricky on a PC since your first option may not to watch a clip with 1:1 mapping.
    If you can find a HD clip from a movie you have on DVD then that should help to highlight the differences.

    Yep HD-DVD will be light years ahead of DVD via component but quite a bit more expensive for the player and discs not to mention no UK releases date unless you import from the US:)
     
  29. Starburst

    Starburst
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    17,846
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Ilkeston
    Ratings:
    +975



    Those HD clips on the SKY website are using VC1 (Microsoft codec aks wmv) at around 9/10mbps, very strange decision by SKY since they are certainly not upto the standard you can expect from broadcast HD using H.264 codec.

    If they were using mpeg2 then yep around 15mbps would be required for optimal quality.
     
  30. mark800

    mark800
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2006
    Messages:
    4,351
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Huntingdon
    Ratings:
    +2,240
    Looking at how many channels Sky has put on the transponders, they look to be transmitting at about 8-9Mbit/s H.264, which equates roughly to the same picture quality as 16-18Mbit/s of MPEG2. With that, we should be seeing an excellent picture (depending on the source).
     

Share This Page

Loading...