Is it worth the expensive speaker ?

floyd droid62

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I would like to thank everybody for their advice regarding my bass problem in a small room but I think I am becoming obsessed trying to solve the impossible ,small rooms hate bass .so in a nutshell as my room is not perfect .But crossing over around the 90hz mark work's, should I buy the dali zensor 3 or the b&w cm1. It seems obvious that the b&w cm1 is the better speaker but as I am crossing over to a monolith would the extra £300 be a waste! My taste in music is rock,pop,dance, general chart music. I have wasted a lot of money in the past so these speakers are for keeps.BUT my heart likes big floorstanders ,and a 90hz crossover works,so a wharfedale 230 maybe:lesson: ,and a lot of people on this forum seem to have floorstanders in small rooms, plus i save money on stands
 
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I would like to thank everybody for their advice regarding my bass problem in a small room but I think I am becoming obsessed trying to solve the impossible ,small rooms hate bass .so in a nutshell as my room is not perfect .But crossing over around the 90hz mark work's, should I buy the dali zensor 3 or the b&w cm1. It seems obvious that the b&w cm1 is the better speaker but as I am crossing over to a monolith would the extra £300 be a waste! My taste in music is rock,pop,dance, general chart music. I have wasted a lot of money in the past so these speakers are for keeps.BUT my heart likes big floorstanders ,and a 90hz crossover works,so a wharfedale 230 maybe:lesson: ,and a lot of people on this forum seem to have floorstanders in small rooms, plus i save money on stands
I know for a fact 90hz cross works on floorstanders , but i think i would work better on bookcase,the more i think about it
 

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Not sure why the £300 would be a waste because you are crossing over. The CM1 is tiny and I wouldn't use them in my main system without a sub!
 
Not sure why the £300 would be a waste because you are crossing over. The CM1 is tiny and I wouldn't use them in my main system without a sub!
Hi, because I was going for a pure direct sound in a stereo system via my cxa60 stereo amp driving a speaker like a cm1, however I discovered that a resonant bass problem prevented me doing that,so now I need bass management as in a av receiver, so I thought it was a waste to use a beautiful speaker like the cm1 in that way, so i was thinking dali zensor 3? as its a lot cheaper and the monolith can do the bass via the anti-mode 8033C.
 
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Room size and crossover frequency are unrelated, there is nothing about the room size that in any way affects the optimal crossover freqeuncy, except in the sense that a very small room will dictate very small speakers, which will necessitate a relatively high crossover frequency.

Having decided on a specific crossover frequency (why?), a speaker that will go lower is equivalent to a speaker that won't, as you anyway won't be using the lower frequencies.

BTW, when not constrained, the optimal crossover frequency is 80Hz. Much higher and you lose directionality, much lower and you simply stress the rest of the system where the powered subwoofer would do it better.

"Pure direct" generally precludes the use of a flexible crossover and room equalization, both of which I would have considered crucial elements in your case. I would therefore recommend that you reconsider your position on "it must be pure, even though it will be lousy", and rather target "the best that can be achieved under the circumstances" - without imposing artificial constraints.
 
The CM1 doesn't offer a lot of bass though, hence why I think it will be worthwhile using them. They are tiny! There is more to better speakers than how deep the bass goes!
 
The CM1 doesn't offer a lot of bass though, hence why I think it will be worthwhile using them. They are tiny! There is more to better speakers than how deep the bass goes!
Forget last posts getting dali zensor 7 , had a complete rethink, just love floorstanders:):):) I dont judge speakers on how low the bass can go ,it was the fact that i auditioned the B&W CM1 ; it was a great speaker with a lot of lovely deep bass for it,s size ; i just thought that as my room needs a 100hz crossover on a floorstander ; maybe a little lower for the b&w cm1 that if i did have to use a high cross ,it would suck all the life out of it so i might as well get a cheaper speaker, as there is a £500 gap between the dali zensor 3 & the b& w cm1.i worded it wrong really,i should have said will i hear a much difference for 500 quid ! instead of wouid it be a waste.
 
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Room size and crossover frequency are unrelated, there is nothing about the room size that in any way affects the optimal crossover freqeuncy, except in the sense that a very small room will dictate very small speakers, which will necessitate a relatively high crossover frequency.

Having decided on a specific crossover frequency (why?), a speaker that will go lower is equivalent to a speaker that won't, as you anyway won't be using the lower frequencies.

BTW, when not constrained, the optimal crossover frequency is 80Hz. Much higher and you lose directionality, much lower and you simply stress the rest of the system where the powered subwoofer would do it better.

"Pure direct" generally precludes the use of a flexible crossover and room equalization, both of which I would have considered crucial elements in your case. I would therefore recommend that you reconsider your position on "it must be pure, even though it will be lousy", and rather target "the best that can be achieved under the circumstances" - without imposing artificial constraints.
Hi mark, the previous posts can be completely ignored as I have had a complete rethink, as I am now getting floorstanders, however I will explain my way off thinking at the time, I am a confused as to why you think room size is unrelated to the crossover .in small rooms ; At low frequency's the room dominants the sound ;At high frequency,s the speakers dominant the sound ,this being the case ! A well chosen crossover will be beneficial as you can decide at what frequency the subwoofer gets the troublesome bass,in my case it was 100hz ;As a lower crossover would cause the speaker to become boomy, so the room size has a deciding say.in my room bass below 100hz is bad the Room makes it bad ;a crossover is good , so room size & a crossover are related.it does not matter if the speaker is big or small the ROOM decides on the sound as does a crossover,:) i could be wrong wheres BLUEWIZARD;)
 
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Hi mark, the previous posts can completely ignored as I have had a complete rethink, as I am I now getting floorstanders, however I will explain my way off thinking at the time, I am a confused as to why you think room size is unrelated to the crossover .in small rooms at low frequency's the room dominants the sound at high frequency,s the speakers dominant the sound ,this being the case a well chosen crossover will be beneficial as you can decide at what frequency the subwoofer gets the troublesome bass,in my case it was 100hz as a lower crossover would cause the speaker to become boomy, so the room size has a deciding say.in my room bass below 100hz is bad the Room makes it bad ;a crossover is good , so room size & a crossover are related.it does not matter if the speaker is big or small the ROOM decides on the sound as does a crossover,:) i could be wrong wheres BLUEWIZARD;)
As for pure direct. I was thinking a little HiFi set up ,stereo amp with b&w cm1,a pure sound no DSP no crossovers just as the artist intended, but I had a change of heart and said ,floorstanders With monolith ,
 
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Without EQ you will always struggle in a room that size. My room is similar in size and I have a lot larger speakers than you and two large subs and I have to EQ, although I can get them to sound good without it is a lot better with
 
Without EQ you will always struggle in a room that size. My room is similar in size and I have a lot larger speakers than you and two large subs and I have to EQ, although I can get them to sound good without it is a lot better with
Hi I haven't got any speakers yet but they will be big floorstanders [emoji16] I was becoming obsessed with bass,when in retrospect it wasn't that bad ;with correct crossover! , pink Floyd loud though big drivers bk monolith singing away,perfect no ,fun yes ,:D
 
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To pick up on something you mentioned in post#1...

small rooms hate bass

Seems that yours does but I've managed to get excellent sound in several small rooms (i.e. under 15sqm floor area) without resorting to EQ. I think you're just unlucky in that your room has uneven bass. I can tell you that some large rooms behave badly in the bass region too. Both large and small rooms can have resonance issues.

An important part of all this is to match speaker size with the room it's to be used in. Of course, you can go the way of EQ'ing to reduce the bass output of too-large a speaker but I'd have to ask - why purchase an overly large speaker in the first instance when you're going to remove it's only advantage over smaller speakers (excluding miniatures, I should add) which have a bass response ideally suited to smaller rooms?

Other than bass extension/power, what other benefit does an overly large speaker have? I can't think of any but I can think of some sonic disadvantages at any given price point...
 
I bought my 802 Diamonds because the 803 didn't sound as good. Not just because of bass. But I also only have one problem frequency so I didn't see why I should compromise all the other bass when I EQ anyway (I use Dirac for impulse correction)
 
To pick up on something you mentioned in post#1...



Seems that yours does but I've managed to get excellent sound in several small rooms (i.e. under 15sqm floor area) without resorting to EQ. I think you're just unlucky in that your room has uneven bass. I can tell you that some large rooms behave badly in the bass region too. Both large and small rooms can have resonance issues.

An important part of all this is to match speaker size with the room it's to be used in. Of course, you can go the way of EQ'ing to reduce the bass output of too-large a speaker but I'd have to ask - why purchase an overly large speaker in the first instance when you're going to remove it's only advantage over smaller speakers (excluding miniatures, I should add) which have a bass response ideally suited to smaller rooms?

Other than bass extension/power, what other benefit does an overly large speaker have? I can't think of any but I can think of some sonic disadvantages at any given price point...
I agree with what you say,why am I buying a floorstander to remove bass? One,I love the look of floorstanders, two, because the damn bass problem is still there with a bookcase,take tubular bells part one the bass guitar intro,I think its around 42hz on a floorstander it sounds overblown, it is a annoying sound ,but it is still there on a bookcase,the reason is because decent bookcase speakers can do 40hz easy ! out of curiosity I got a focal chorus 705v ,designed for 15 sq meters ,that bass drone remained, the reason is my room hates speakers ; where i want them, the dimensions of my room excite 40 50 60 80 & 100hz ,however floorstanders sound OK with a 100hz. Crossover, so why have bookcase , I like big drivers big speakers, admittedly they can't sing at there best but who cares , why do people have a Ferrari in the UK when the speed limit is 70 because they look good .bookcase speakers seem expensive for what they are ,a 4 "inch driver in a shoebox , they look boring before. there switched on , a floorstander. Looks good when its switched off
 
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I bought my 802 Diamonds because the 803 didn't sound as good. Not just because of bass. But I also only have one problem frequency so I didn't see why I should compromise all the other bass when I EQ anyway (I use Dirac for impulse correction)
I can,t afford Dirac but if I could I would get it ,or the anti mode dual core ,if I was single I would turn my room into Abbey road ,so it Will have to be a 100hz crossover to a monolith with anti mode 8033c with something like mission mx6 reasonably cheap ,but fun[emoji2]
 
The minidsp ddrc24 is quite cheap but would do what you need. Well worth saving for anyway.
looks good,but £450! and at a quick look on google ,you need a laptop(i have only got a core) as to which i am hopeless on ,as opposed to a budget avr ,£290 which basically is plug and play ;the dsp sounds very complex,i do have a anti mode 8033C with a bk monolith so in theory things should sound ,Ummm not to bad;) if i lived on my own it is something i would get to tinker with,but the wife get annoyed over the price of my hobby as it is,without me saying i want one of these:eek: p.s you must be quite wealthy to think £450 is quite cheap;)
 
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I am a confused as to why you think room size is unrelated to the crossover .in small rooms ; At low frequency's the room dominants the sound ;At high frequency,s the speakers dominant the sound ,this being the case ! A well chosen crossover will be beneficial as you can decide at what frequency the subwoofer gets the troublesome bass,in my case it was 100hz ;As a lower crossover would cause the speaker to become boomy, so the room size has a deciding say.in my room bass below 100hz is bad the Room makes it bad ;a crossover is good , so room size & a crossover are related.it does not matter if the speaker is big or small the ROOM decides on the sound as does a crossover,:) i could be wrong

Nulls: These are a property of the room, not of the crossover or of which speaker handle which frequency. There is not much you can do about these.
Peaks: As above, but with the difference that you can tame them with a combination of room treatment (your current room is a boom box) and equalization, which is done across the frequency range by your AVR and is therefore independent of the crossover.

From a later post of yours; I do however agree that if you use an Antimode 8033C instead of the AVR's EQ, there may be a benefit to a higher crossover - this is because you would only have EQ on signals being sent to the subwoofer through the Antimode.

Given your smallish room and limited budget though, I'd have thought that a sat-sub system would have yielded a better payback.
 
The only other benefit I could think of with having a higher crossover is how the standing waves interact with the non reflected waves, which may lead to null and peaks in slightly different locations as the source speaker is in a different place, but that is just from the top of my head and might be absolute rubbish! I personally would either but floorstanders and get rid of the sub or buy standmounts and use the surplus money from either to get better EQ such as Dirac, which is far superior to almost anything you get in an AVR or antimode in my opinion as it does the impulse correction too
 
Nulls: These are a property of the room, not of the crossover or of which speaker handle which frequency. There is not much you can do about these.
Peaks: As above, but with the difference that you can tame them with a combination of room treatment (your current room is a boom box) and equalization, which is done across the frequency range by your AVR and is therefore independent of the crossover.

From a later post of yours; I do however agree that if you use an Antimode 8033C instead of the AVR's EQ, there may be a benefit to a higher crossover - this is because you would only have EQ on signals being sent to the subwoofer through the Antimode.

Given your smallish room and limited budget though, I'd have thought that a sat-sub system would have yielded a better payback.
thank you for you feedback, i think i know what you are saying ;audyssey is rubbish at this room,but if it was not ! the crossover would not matter as the problem would be eliminated.:confused:,given my financial restraints i agree sub/sat system would be the logical choice ,but floorstander to cube:(,however i have not tried a bookcase with a crossover,as my avr broke and like a idioto_O i got a stereo amp,so the bookcase i did try boomed! being pig headed i keep thinking floorstander,s with crossover, But i can see now that would be unbeneficial ,to say the least SO what bookcase would marry the bk monolith ,because if a 100hz crossover worked on a floorstander[B&W CM7],half bunged.a bookcase should be ok,may be:)
 
The only other benefit I could think of with having a higher crossover is how the standing waves interact with the non reflected waves, which may lead to null and peaks in slightly different locations as the source speaker is in a different place, but that is just from the top of my head and might be absolute rubbish! I personally would either but floorstanders and get rid of the sub or buy standmounts and use the surplus money from either to get better EQ such as Dirac, which is far superior to almost anything you get in an AVR or antimode in my opinion as it does the impulse correction too
dirac is to expensive for me,but i am not getting floorstanders now ,i was thinking of a bookcase that rolls off the bass about 60 to 70hz ,crossed over th sub with anti mode
 
thank you for you feedback, i think i know what you are saying ;audyssey is rubbish at this room,but if it was not ! the crossover would not matter as the problem would be eliminated.:confused:,given my financial restraints i agree sub/sat system would be the logical choice ,but floorstander to cube:(,however i have not tried a bookcase with a crossover,as my avr broke and like a idioto_O i got a stereo amp,so the bookcase i did try boomed! being pig headed i keep thinking floorstander,s with crossover, But i can see now that would be unbeneficial ,to say the least SO what bookcase would marry the bk monolith ,because if a 100hz crossover worked on a floorstander[B&W CM7],half bunged.a bookcase should be ok,may be:)
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the only place the damn speakers sound nice is where the red apple is
 
Do you have an anti mode?
yes but not set up as got no speakers yet ; not sure what the hell to get .two kef eggs! i am thinking ,maybe some wharfedale 220 ,budget speakers than my expectations are not to high !
 
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