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Is it possible that the Tosh xs32 can do something better than a PC?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by nunew33, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. nunew33

    nunew33
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    To date all my Tosh to PC editing has been linear. I copy programs to the PC trim them and burn them as individual titles with the ads edited out.

    But last night I set about transfering 5 hours of camcorder footage on 4 tapes of the same event, namely my wedding. I thought instead of chaptering on the tosh I will do it all on the PC.

    So I start with tape 1, quite happily trimming out bad footage and chaptering by using TMPGenc DVD Author. I then start on tape 2 and think about which chapters on each tape I will use for the final run and it suddenly struck me that TMPGenc works at a title level, not at chapter level, I cant pick and mix chapters to produe a new title. There is no playlist equivelent. A quick look through all my tools and its suddenly apparant that no tool can do the equivelent of the tosh for playlist editing. So is there a package which allows you to select chapters from various titles without the need for re-encoding?

    To confuse matters further. After spending a lot of time chaptering in DVD Author and trimming. I noticed that when looking at the same mpeg file in womble VCR that the trimmed footage wasnt there. I also noticed that when i placed the mpeg in other products the chapters werent recognised.

    Can someone please tell me how best to do the equivelent of playlst editing on a PC. As the PC is far quicker for chaptering and trimming something like a wedding video.
     
  2. Kevo

    Kevo
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    I think you've out grown TMPG ( I did, very soon).
    Don't forget it's only a basic (to say the least) DVD authoring package.
    What you need is some editing software like ULead Video Studio 8 (trial version vailalble for download HERE ) , which is what I use.
    As long as you keep to simple trimming then it won't re-encode. It also has a clever 'smat render' where only 'processed*' clips are re-encoded.

    Your Tosh will not be able to do anything better than this and VS8 is a bottom end package.

    *added fx, titles, music etc.
     
  3. monocrider

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    I've just bought a copy of VS8, so have only just started playing with it and can't really comment on how good or otherwise it is (It seems pretty good to my novice eye though). ! :smashin:

    The reason for my post is to mention that Amazon have VS8 for £35 at the moment (which is where I got my copy) which seems like a very good price for the functionality you get. :thumbsup:
     
  4. jdarushall

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    The problem with TMP Author is that it copies the original files as MPEGS from disc and you have to save the project that contains the edits. It would be great if you could just save the files with cuts as it is easy to find the end of chapters.

    For playlist editing you would need something a bit more advanced, what about the compation Womble product "Video Editor"??? (not sure of the title)
    As Womble doesn't see chapter markers Tmp Author is better for cutting commercails out.

    The Toshiba certainly wins in this area as you can build a title from clips/chapters from a number other of titles.
     
  5. nunew33

    nunew33
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  6. Kevo

    Kevo
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    Video Studio 8 is an editing software programme and NOT a DVD Authoring programme.

    Editing is done by adding in and out points where multiple mpeg clips can also be added and joined together
    It has nothing to do with chapters (whih are merely index markers on a DVD)

    There is no comparison between the two. From an editing point of view the software beats the Tosh hands down.

    Adding chapters is done at the authoring stage with different software.
    For this I use Ulead DVD Workshop 2. I will gladly do a comparison between this and the Tosh if you like.

    Most DVD Authoring software like TMPG will allow you to do some simple editing (i.e. trimming clips), but that's about it.

    Some will even import chapters. Ideall you should create the chapters at the PC end rather than at the recorder end.

    Either on their own or together this software set up can do MUCH, MUCH more that the Tosh. It's pointless to even compare them.
     
  7. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Kevo, you are misunderstanding me, Im not claiming the tosh is a great video editor. and its perfectly acceptable to compare the tosh to editing software, results of comparisons depends on your requirements in the 1st place. There is a function on the tosh I would like to do on the PC and I cant see any software that does it. Im hoping that someone on here may have heard of software that does. If that function is my main requirement then any editing/authoring software I have fails in comparison

    What I am saying is that there does not appear to be any software, VS8 included, that imports multiple titles, with chapter marks, and allows the pick and mixing of chapters within those titles. This simplifies the editing process. It is something the Tosh does and I would like a piece of software that does it. As te process of chaptering is easier on the PC. The software that I have got looks as though I would need to divide the titles at chapter poiint sinto seperate titles (or mpeg files). Once again something easy on the tosh but not on the PC (ie you can get the tosh to split chapters into titles very easily).

    Im not after a fancy video editing suite. Im after software that works like the tosh. So the comparison is not to see if the tosh is better than a video editor, the comparison is to find avideo PC application that makes chapter mixing as easy as the tosh does.

    So here is what I want to do, my requirement:
    I have 2 VOB/mpeg files, file1 and file2, broken into chapters, chap1...chapn.

    Is there any software that allows me to create a new mpeg/vob file from
    file1.chap2,file2.chap2,file1.chap1, file2chap3, etc
    without splitting the original vob/mpeg files or without reencoding?

    If the above is my requirement then the tosh comes out of any comparison with the PC products I haveon top, unless someone knows better. And Im hoping they do!
     
  8. Kevo

    Kevo
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    OK, I get your drift. Basically you need to import teh chapter info too and create a new mpeg from various chapters.
    You're correct VS8 doesn't do this, but am sure there must be editing software that does.

    Personally i've never found adding or recreating chapter markers from an already authored DVD that much of a time consuming problem on a PC

    Is it really that much more work to simply import the relevant clips, trim where necessary and then simply add the chapter marks again?

    You could do all this without re-encoding.

    [EDIT]

    In your case I would do this...

    Forget about chaptering on the Tosh and leave it til last on the PC.
    Just use teh Tosh as the 'capture device' and let the PC do all the work.

    1. Import the VOB clips direct into Womble mpeg Video Wizard 2003
    Add, trim, join the clips to how you want the final thing to look.
    Output to a new complete mpeg file (NO RE-ENCODING INVOLVED AND ONLY ONE MPEG FILE), which will be done in literally seconds or minutes depending on length.

    I can't stress enough how quickly and easily the above can be done.
    As long as you are familiar with the locations of the in and out/chapter marks from a visual POV then finding the beginning and end of each clip will be a breeze.

    2. Then simply import this new mpeg file into your favourite DVD Authoring software and add the chapter markers.

    3. Process and Burn

    Simple as that....1 and 2 could be done in literally minutes!

    It's no different to any other basic DVD authoring job really.
    [/EDIT]
     
  9. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Kevo, youve got it!!!

    But I am doing what you say. I am using the tosh as the capture device. Not chaptering on it.

    But your solution assumes that the clips are discrete which they are not. I have 4 camcorder tapes. Each taken by a different person of the same event. So every tape has for example the speeches. If I wanted to edit a sequence of the speeches choosing the recording that was bestfor sound and light how would I do this. In the tosh, assuming I had chaptered the edit points this would be easy as I would simply create a playlist by selecteing the chapters i wanted to keep from each video. Ive just started to paly with womble and it allows me to split the mpeg file and use bookmarks. This could be the way to go for me. Although the PC is far quicker for creatingchapter points the playlist function of the tosh seems to be a simple but effective method of non linear editing that womble and TMPGenc have omitted to make easy
     
  10. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Right. heres the low down. Below are a number of applications and how good they are at emulating the tosh playlist function (ie pick and mixing sections of several mpeg files). When i use the word uselss its not a criticism of the package simply how well it suits this specific task, so there is no need to flame me with replies telling me how good these applicatons are, I know how good they are for other tasks):
    TMPGenc DVD Author - Useless. Treats each file as a title
    Womble Mpeg VCR - useless its linear. Ideal for reming adds or pruning a home vid
    Intervideo WinDVD Creator - Good try. You can subdivide each video segment into chapters and drag and drop these onto a timeline. Its pretty neat. I would recommend this to anyone if the PC is doing the capturing. Just when i thought I had the solution I find that it reencodes the mpeg files!!!! Im hlf tempted to return to this applicationn. Reencode my vids in max bitrate and put up with the reencoding. It does things like scene detection or frame by frame viewing.
    Ulead DVD Movie factory 2 - Useless
    Womble Mpeg editor 2003 - Nearest I can get to a solution. I can create a bookmark file that effectively acts as chapters. Quick and easy to set up bookmarks. However when I get to editing when I swap between video files I also have to swap between bookmark files. Another method is to combine all 5 hours and simply split the mpeg footageand cut and paste segments. Cant help but think this means its going to reencode it all!!!

    Anyone else with ideas?
     
  11. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    nunew33,

    Is that a Digital Camcorder you are using? If so just get a Firewire card for your PC and use a DV editting suite. Much easier and effective than trying to capture in MPEG2 onto the Toshiba and then do all the tweaks on a PC.
     
  12. Kevo

    Kevo
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    Sounds like you have a major editing job to me.
    4 different camcorders worth on one event is quite a lot of footage to play with.
    You basically have a multi camera shoot to edit!

    If you can import all the footage you need to the PC direct via Firewire (as per Rasczak) then go that route.
    Failing that go via the Tosh and import each raw DVD into Video Studio 8.

    Have you ever done 'insert editing' before?
    This is the pro approach to editing where you will use the continous video & sound from one camera and insert cutaways or diff angles (from another cam) over parts of the main footage. So the sound remains fluid but you 'patch' over video segments.
    'Noddies' as they sometimes call them on interview clips.

    It's well worth doing and it makes your finished edit look very professional.

    I use this method quite a lot with just one camera's worth of tape.

    This is very easy to do in Video Studio 8 using the 'overlay feature'.

    Problem you will have with the different cameras is the colour balance (and sound) will be the different on each but you can correct this in VS8 if you want.

    I think you need to do a bit of planning before you embark on such a large project but it's worth doing right. You have a lot of footage from different cameras so it would be a shame to just add clips haphazardly and don't be afraid to be ruthless and discard much of it.

    This is definatley a PC editing job, the Tosh (or any other standalone) just doesn't figure other than as a 'capture device' for the original tapes.
     
  13. OARDVD

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    I don't think it should as long as both titles were recorded at the same rate (audio as well as video).
     
  14. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Source is Hi8 camcorder. So Tosh is the capture method. Used to try it via AIW radeon but could never get capture without lost frames. Not so bothered about the insert editing. That would involve reencoding and thats what I want to avoid. With the exception of womble im pretty sure the other products reencode when finishing.

    I suppose Ive simply got a choice:
    Do it on the tosh witha slow chaptering process in comparison to a PC.

    Do it on the PC where chaptering is a doddle but multiple patching of different souces with no reencoding is beyond the scope of any easily obtainable software.

    Kevo, VS8 is ulead? I know that Media studio pro didnt reencode unnecessarily, is this the case with VS 8?
     
  15. Kevo

    Kevo
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    yes, it has a 'smart render' where only processed parts of the clip are re-encode.

    Is re-encoding that bad? TMPGenc will re-encode at excellent quality.
     
  16. nunew33

    nunew33
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    2 reasons why I want to avoid re-encoding:
    1) Some source is 8mm, the rest Hi8 (and some tapes over 10 years old), Hardly hi quality sources. So image quality isnt that brilliant to start. Although I cant improve the image, I dont want to actively degrade it which reencoding will do.
    2) reencoding takes time. When i tried it on my old Athlon 1100 I used to wait 4-6 hours for rendering and by the time it was fnished the results were not always what I wanted. I dont want to be in position where I wait 4-6 hours for a bad result. I raher wait 2 or less.

    Im tempted to have a go with WinDVD creator and look at the results of reencoding. I now have an athlon64, 1G mem and nvidia 6800 card (although this has built in mpeg compression I dont believe any software uses it yet) so reencoding should be a bit faster

    I noticed on womble last night that they are working on auto bookmarks for scenbe changes. Do any other products do this?
     
  17. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Going to go down the intervideo winDVD creator route. Seems to have the easiest interface for what i want to do.

    Ive been avoiding reencodong because i havent been that impressed with the results when ive recorded in SP on the tosh and had to reencode (for example 2.20 hr program to fit in 2 hrs). The difference between the reslt from endcoding at the correct rate in the first place and reencoding is substantial
     

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