Is it me or is 100hz...

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by beavis, Mar 27, 2002.

  1. beavis

    beavis
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    ..a complete waste of time on tv's?

    Only heard bad things so far, so much that I'm looking at the Pana 32pl1 which is not 100hz!

    BTW, was in a well known electrical store the other week and the salesman was raving about how good Sony TV's were to a couple and if they bought one they would never need to use their guarantee/warranty as there are never problems with them!

    Comments!!??? Ha ha!

    Cheers All

    Beavis.
     
  2. pointon

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    My Uncle has a Toshiba 36ZP18P. It's only his small TV for the lounge, mind. He uses his PJ much more. :rolleyes:

    I love that TV. 100hz looks fantastic. It's not a waste of time, but it might be something that won't appeal to everyone, or seem worth it to some. If I had £1200, I'd have the 32" version of this TV snapped up.

    It's all down to individual taste and preference. But it's no waste of time.
     
  3. Doubledoom

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    If you have only heard bad things about 100hz then you are not looking in the right places.

    You tend to find that the split is about 50/50 for those in favour of 100hz and those against.

    Personally, i wouldnt buy another 50hz set again. The flicker free image with no high pitch whine is a godsend. Watching 50hz sets used to give me a headache. No longer the case with a 100hz set.

    Too many people blame 100hz televisions for poor quality when they should be blaming the digital tv sources for overcompression.

    Also, ruling out 100hz on other peoples opinions is silly and you should view for yourself and make your own mind up.
     
  4. Guest

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    If I were you Beavis I'd get the PL1. I thought my brother's set was a PL10 and ordered the 32" version because I was so impressed. It turns out his set is a PL1 and it has a far superior picture to mine. I like watching football but on the PL10 it becomes a chore as it looks like the players are playing underwater. There are other strange marks, like fingerprints that are visible on certain backgrounds. I'm afraid that I think that the supposed 50Hz flicker is infinitely preferable to the smearing and digital artifacts produced by 100Hz sets.

    I am on my 4th widescreen set, having had two faulty Philips 6515's and a dodgy PL10 all returned to EDUK and if it wasn't for the fact that I just can't stand any more heavy lifting (these 32" sets are a killer!!) I would send this one back and ask for a PL1.

    Gordon
     
  5. Kevo

    Kevo
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    I too find watching 50Hz televisions uncomfortable.

    I have no regrets in purchasing a 100Hz model.

    I'm still waiting to see these trails & artefacts that people keep talking about on 100Hz TVs. I don't get them on mine, maybe I should take it back ;)

    And as for reading menus, text on screen, well 50Hz will just screw your eyes up!
     
  6. Grubert

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    The problem is that if you want to have a decent image quality with 100Hz, a lot of onboard processing is necessary. And it's just not there.

    Another forum member said it looked like the video boards on most 100Hz sets came from Vic20 computers. Now if they decided to put circuits from an Atari ST inside, that would be a welcome change. :rolleyes:

    Regards.
     
  7. js

    js
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    I used to think 100hz wasn't very good but that was only from seeing it in stores such as Currys or Comet - need I say more :rolleyes: . I bought a Panny 50hz 28PL1 and thought the picture was terrible on DVD/analog/Dreamcast etc. The TV also had a few problems - perhaps a PL1 without these problems looks good I don't know. Anyway I got Debehams to agree to a replacement and I went for a 32" 100hz TV instead and bought a Loewe Xelos, £400 more than the Panny but IMO well worth the extra dosh. The picture is absolutely amazing on all sources and so is the sound and style, admittedly the sound isn't so important as I have an A/V amp etc but still the sound of the TV shames some of those Mini HiFi systems you can get :D
    The 100hz is only evident when viewing the TV from 1 ft away or so - who is going to watch a TV that close up ? There is no smearing etc at all and the picture simply outclasses most 50hz TVs I've seen and there is also zero flicker (which was irritating on the Panny PL1)
    Now the Xelos I know isn't a flatscreen TV but who cares, I bought it for its picture and having a flatscreen doesn't warrant spending an extra £300 or more for the Aconda or Vitros to get pretty much the same quality but on a flat screen, some may disagree but it is only my opinion.
     
  8. beavis

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    Thanks for all the posts, I'm well and truly more confused now in deciding on a TV set! One minute it's Panasonic, then it's Toshiba!

    Gonna keep digesting all the info here a bit longer before I make the purchase!
     
  9. mjn

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    i can't understand all these people that say 50hz sets gives them headaches....

    How did all you people cope with watching TV before 100hz sets came out??

    Since 75hz is said to be flicker free, and that is PC monitors, where you are sitting about 18" - 24" away from the screen....

    Personally, i find 50hz to be perfectly fine, and that 100hz look too artificial for me...
     
  10. Stanley_Cooper

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    Js/beavis

    Ive got the same problem as well. I've a mate who getting a pana 32pl10 but they seem to be abit boring on design.

    Then I was thinking of getting a philips 32pw9556 which is a really nice tv, but i've had one dealer try and sway me to buy a pl10.

    But i have also seen a Loewe Xelos in Debenhams and was impressed with it. Also it's well within my budget, can you tell me what features has this tv got?

    Stan..
     
  11. js

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    mjn,
    I guess they just had to live with it. The flicker didn't cause me grief I just noticed it on the Panny PL1, whereas on my old Sony 25" 4:3 TV (50hz also) I didn't notice any flicker :confused:
    whatsoever.

    Stanley,
    Features - FastText, 4 aspect modes (16:9, 4:3, Zoomed and I can't remember the other one) - now 1 problem I have with the aspect modes is that it doesn't seem to want to stay in one mode it switches rather annoyingly to 4:3 and sometimes zoom - and to anyone who quickly tries to point out I should turn AMD off I have already done so - you may get irritated by it. Obviously 100hz, it has a PIP button on the remote but this doesn't work on the Xelos (its on the remote because I assume the Vitros shares it and that TV does have PIP I think).
    3 scart sockets (2 RGB - one of these I think is also component in and the 3rd is s-video/composite I think)
    Also it has a very good tuner - much better than the Panny PL1.
    TV based manual using the remote.
    Ability to use it as a monitor for the PC by buying a VGA card addon thing. (max res. is 800*600 I think but this is interlaced I think)
    Can't think of anything else.
    Try Loewe for anything I may have missed.
     
  12. Doubledoom

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    I coped by not watching tv much and if i did i would put up with it as i had no choice.

    Although i would say that it has become more noticeable to me after having 100hz sets for the last 5 years.
     
  13. simbloke

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    Your Xelos may be different but my 5270ZW has a Q2500 chassis and the PIP button does work, there a second tuner card in the back. Unlike the Aconda there's no variable size PIP.

    It only has 2 SCART's though - I think the 32" versions have 3. Also, the zoom mode may sometimes change but on its own but if I have manually selected one mode then it stays there.

    Other nice stuff is the big teletext page memory and split screen picture/text. Phono outputs can have the level controlled by the TV volume control.

    The only time I notice the 100Hz is on the fast horizontally scrolling subtitles, they don't look so great. But others report weirdness when watch football etc on other makes, there's none of that.

    Note that the Loewe web site was out of date regarding the chassis and features of, at least, the 5270 last time I looked (last week). Best ask a dealer to be sure on the spec.

    Sim
     
  14. js

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    Simbloke,
    Yes the 32" version does have 3.
    Also I can't get the PIP to work at all so I guess I have an older chassis :(
    Another thing is I can't get the split screen text/picture to work either - perhaps again to do with having an older chassis.
     
  15. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I use an like this set as well. However whilst 'playing' today (checking out RPTVs for another thread) I had an initial peek at the new IDTV Sony 100 32 incher and the Pixel plus Philips 32 incher. Both looked like they had some good to offer. I look forward to finding more out about these sets.
     
  16. Zacabeb

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    I coped with 50Hz TV's by turning down the contrast and not watching for long periods. Eventually I got an RPTV since the image flickered less (this was back when 100Hz was not yet common).

    100Hz is overkill but was originally the only option for increasing the scan rate properly. Now that motion estimation and compensation is working its way into consumer products, this is changing. Philips are using their ME/MC system (Natural Motion) in their Pixel Plus sets to increase the scan rate to 75Hz, which is enough to reduce the flicker. This also frees up one quarter of the horizontal frequency, allowing the much hyped increase of vertical resolution while using a regular "Philips" 100Hz tube.

    Many 100Hz sets suffer from color problems though, thanks to their field memories having adhered to the same standards throughout 15 years. They're still only 3Mbit with a 12-bit bus. That means the image data must be reduced to fit and it is the color that takes the hit. Either they reduce the color to a quarter the original resolution (4:1:1) or to half with compression (4:2:2 DPCM). That causes smudginess.
     
  17. Stanley_Cooper

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    Simbloke

    You mentioned that you had a 5270ZW with a Q2500 chassis for which the pip button works. I had a look at the xelos 5381 in Debenhams yesterday but this only had a Q2400 chassis and no pip.

    How much did your xelos cost and how come your comes with the new Q2500 chassis ?

    Unless the Loewe programme quide is wrong or out of date then you must have the 5970 model.

    Stan..
     
  18. simbloke

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    nope, i've definately got a 5270. It came from Peter Martin Hifi in Congleton (had enough of the online buying last time...) and cost just under £1000 with the not so cheap Loewe stand (but I liked the look of it!). They were really good and drove a long way to deliver it to North Wales by 9am in the morning.

    By the way, the Loewe website is updated now though it doesn't say that the remote has the 4 programmable buttons that it has.

    Debenhams must have a stock of TV's, maybe they bought a lot and that's why they can be cheaper. Mine was ordered from the UK distributers after I had decided to buy it, only took a few days.

    Sim
     
  19. Stanley_Cooper

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    Thanks for that. Just had a look at Loewe's website and you're right. Although the 5381 is 32inch it looks as though it doesn't come with these additional features :( :(

    Can you give me the number for Peter Martin Hifi please?

    Finally and I asked this to the guy in Debenhams, how do you control say I dvd, video and cable box when you're using the stand? Unless you've got the door open which makes having stand pointless!

    As per usual the guy in Debenhams didn't know what to say!!

    Stan..
     
  20. simbloke

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    well, if it's loewe equipment it can be hidden in a stand and controlled via the TV. For other makes you could use a remote extender.

    This is the Peter Martin Hifi website.

    Sim
     
  21. Stanley_Cooper

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    Thanks for that simbloke

    I just phoned them up and they quoted me for tv and stand £1517 !!! including 5 year warranty....

    I've just another place which does the same thing for £1250.

    Bit of a difference me thinks....

    Stan...
     
  22. beavis

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    I'm seriously confused now!

    Can anyone answer why Manufacturers went straight to 100hz rather than over 70hz in the first place?

    Might have a demo of the new Philips Pixel Plus to help aid my decision!

    Cheers all

    Beavis
     
  23. Zacabeb

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    Manufacturers went directly to 100Hz because when the first sets were produced (almost 15 years ago) nothing could be done but to store the images 'as is' in a memory. Since they couldn't process the images, the display rate could not be increased to an arbitrary value or the image would stutter.

    Now that there are motion tracking processors, new images can be produced by comparing the existing ones and moving things around in them, to create genuine intermediate images. Thanks to that it is possible to take an input rate like 50Hz, and recalculate entirely new images, output at the rate desired. That wasn't possible until recently.

    The only reason Philips are using 75Hz in Pixel Plus is that it adds up nicely with the increased vertical and horizontal resolutions, to an output rate of 64MHz. 64 is a nice number to Philips engineers since it is in the almighty octree, i.e. an even multiple of 2. There would be benefits of sticking with 100Hz, but with the higher resolution everything would need to be even faster. I wouldn't be surprised if there's going to be a 'Super Pixel Plus' in the next few years, with even higher resolution and 100Hz scan rate.

    Philips' previous 100Hz sets output at 32MHz (100Hz x 312.5 lines/field x 1,024 samples/line). The Pixel Plus sets must output at 64MHz (75Hz x 416.67 lines/field x 2,048 samples/line). That also means they must have introduced a new general processor than their trusty old PICNIC, in addition to the Eagle-IC which does the Pixel Plus trickery. Unless they integrated them into one...?
     
  24. Guest

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    Have same TV as Kevo here a Tosh 40" projection. Always view on 50Hz as putting it on 100 Hz causes jitter and bounce on static parts of images - particularly captions, graphics or EPG's.

    Am I missing something here since I think 100 Hz is pants!

    Be kind first post!

    D
     
  25. Ludae

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    As far as I can recall, there are two 100Hz modes on Toshiba models, one is a basic repeat field version which has line flicker & 'bounce' as you say, and the other uses motion adaptive de-interlacing to reduce/remove line flicker etc.

    I think it is the latter that you prefer, I am not aware of a 50Hz option, but I stand to be corrected!
     
  26. Kevo

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    Like Ludae says there is no 50Hz mode on our model, just 100Hz & 'Natural Scan'. Yes, Natural Scan is better for still images/text but I prefer 100Hz mode in everyday use where you don't see any 'jitter and bounce' or moving subject matter.

    I think the 100Hz is superb on the Tosh and could NEVER go back to a 50Hz TV.

    You must be missing something as I can't see anything 'pants' about it!

    Have you seen a 50Hz WS TV since you had your Tosh?
    Surely you can notice the flicker more? I know I can and sometimes (depending on make) it's unbearable.
     
  27. johndon

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    I've also got the Tosh 40" widescreen (a superb tv) and, when viewing at 100HZ, the picture itself is rock solid.

    However, like Mr Diesel on 100HZ, the menus for the TV itself and for Sky Digital flicker very badly - this flicker is not there at all if i use Natural Scan.

    John
     
  28. Guest

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    What I'm gathering is that 'Natural Scan' mode does not mean 50Hz then! Jap techno babble confusing me - if the other menu choice is 100Hz then Natural scan must be xxHz. Ohh no it's not - ohh yes it is?

    I enjoy the Natural Scan mode, and really don't percieve any flicker. It is probably the much cleverer interlacing mode then you mention.

    Thanks for fixing my confusion!
     
  29. CouchPotato

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    Mr Diesel,

    I was under the impression that the natural scan option on the latest toshiba sets actually does nothing more than display the lines from the previous frame.

    I assume this has an effect similar to a line-doubler or progressive scan, (ie. it displays all the image lines at the same time) However, unlike progressive scan, natural-scan can increase the jaggy edges of fast moving objects. (as the image used for de-interlacing has not moved as much as the new one.) non/slow moving text and images work very well with natural scan as the difference between the two images is minimal.

    i think thats how it works, tho im sure someone can put it more succinctly than i have.

    cheers
     
  30. Guest

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    This must be why right to left caption/credit crawls are almost unreadable then on this TV?
     

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