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Is HDMI HDCP really an issue ?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by Faust, Mar 22, 2005.

  1. Faust

    Faust
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    Is HDMI and HDCP really the issue people are making it out to be? My understanding is that most PDP and LCD’s are able to receive Hi Def, but unless they have the HDMI connector cannot be labelled HD ready. Component will carry a Hi Def signal albeit in analogue form, but that said the PQ will still be pretty good. The HDCP element only comes into play when recording. If you have the HDMI connector then the signal recognises your t.v. as a viewing device and so the content can be viewed. If it recognises the device as a recorder then my understanding is that HDCP will only let you make one recording of the content. If the programme transmitted is in the clear then there is no issue. I suspect that as Sky will also be transmitting via component they may well use some form of copy protection as they do now with Box Office. Either way, most owners of a panel without HDMI should not worry unduly.
     
  2. jimg

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    This has been covered before but:
    1) HDCP is added by the content producer NOT the broadcaster, so SKY can control there own material but not the rest of it's HD content.
    2) There is NO clear statement from SKY that there will be a component output, only from manufacturers who have a problem at the moment; i.e. Sony and Panasonic.
    3) Assuming for a moment component existed, it may be there to provide a SD interface; it would be turned off if anyway if a HDCP broadcast was on air.

    You have lost me!
     
  3. imh

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    I suspect they may not be able to allow HD over component for some content, and might have to down scale to SD. Why would the content creators go to all the lengths of adding HDCP to then just allow HD over component? Totally defeats the purpose of HDCP.
     
  4. neilmcl

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    Only displays with a minimum resolution of 720p/1080i will be able to show HD in it's true form, anything less and the picture will be downscaled to SD. It's probably true that the new Sky HD stb will offer component as well as HDMI but I'd imagine most HD content will be HDCP encrypted anyway.
     
  5. asimmd

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    I can't help wondering why Sky would adopt an HD system that possibly the majority of people will not be able to access.

    If Sky are going to charge for this service,would it not make sense to make it available to the maximum number of people at the outset?

    Just a thought!!!

    Alan
     
  6. richardr

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    Because the content owners (i.e. the film companies) may well be insisting on it.

    It may well not be needed for the likes of sport, and content providers such as the BBC that generate their own material.
     
  7. jimsan

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    asimmd,

    You're not getting this are you? Look at jimg's post above and concentrate!

    It is NOT Sky who are insisting on the HDCP encoding! IT...IS...THE...PROGRAMME...PRODUCERS. You cannot avoid it and analogue HiDef is really a bit of a non-starter.

    Jimmy
     
  8. asimmd

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    Jimsan
    I bet there's not only me who dosen't get it!

    Regards
    Alan
     
  9. woody67

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    Despite reading many posts on here about the 'importance' of an digital connection, I finally brought a screen without one, and can say that from a good source the picture is fantastic via scart/component or s-video.

    I'm on cable anyway!
     
  10. I.T.M.A

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    Just got my April issue of Sky Magazine. In the skybuy section I note that LCD & Plasma screens are conspicious by their absence. Usually there's a 26" LCD & 42" Plasma for sale. If I remember rightly (but someone correct me if i'm wrong) none of sky badged LCD's/Plasma's were HDMI/DVI capable.

    Perhaps Sky are removing their own Sky branded products from sale because of their intention to output Hi-Def only through HDMI/DVI.

    There would be few peed off people, who could have spent anything up to £2000 on a Plasma package, only to be told that they couldn't now get Hi-Def. If they stop selling these items or start selling HD Ready displays 12 months from now they can inform their customers that no non-HDMI/DVI were advertised after the HDCP announcement.

    Sky are probably sourcing new suppliers as we speak.
     
  11. ianh64

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    Its no different now. You buy a DVD player with upsampled output, the only way of viewing it (other than using an unlicensed DVD player) is via an HDCP digital output. If you don't have HDCP, you watch it in SD only.

    [controversial]Whilst I don't much like Sky, I don't see why people keep blaming them. The villains in this are the pirates who have forced the programme makers to have to protect their investment and the marketing guys in the likes of Sony who have known about the need to HDCP for the last 5 years and have failed to deliver it to the UK/European markets (but have delivered it to other worldwide markets) with the hope that they will get another sale when Joe Punter wants to upgrade.[/controversial]

    Basically, if you don't have HDCP, you don't view copy protected material in HD. Its been like that with licensed upsampling DVD players for ages so should not be viewed as anything new or anything that is Sky's fault - now I never ever thought that I would see the day that I sympathasised with Sky.
     
  12. Branxx

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    "Its been like that with licensed upsampling DVD players for ages "

    Would there be any problems in continuing to use unlicensed HDCP->DVI converters in the same way as using those 'unlicensed' upsampling DVD players?
     
  13. I.T.M.A

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    Although i'm in the "I hope HD is through component as I only have a component display" camp I do have to agree with earlier posts that HDCP is the way to go for Hi-Def.

    However, and contradicting my own previous argument, sky could launch a limited Hi-Def service that includes component for the very reasons given by others above.

    Sky one is virtually all programming from the Fox Netwok. Sky one could therefore transmit non-HDCP material (given the O.K by Murdoch et al). The same could apply to a 20th Century Fox movie channel. Sports/News supplied by sky/Fox could be the same. In fact any material copyrighted (or whatever the correct term is) owned or paid for by sky &/or Fox could be broadcast without HDCP.

    Sky will need to determine if restricting Hi-Def to HDMI/DVI is more viable to giving Hi-Def over component for all programming that it (or it's Fox affiliates) holds rights for, & thereby appeasing the likes of Sony, & also getting more subscribers to Hi-Def at the outset. Sky/Fox would effectively negate their own copy protection to increase the take up of Hi-Def & no copyright issues would be broken except those controlled in the fist place by sky/Fox.

    Does this make sense?????
     
  14. loz

    loz
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    I noticed that and came to a similar conclusion.
    The next displays on sale from Sky will undoubtably be HDMI/HDCP enabled
     
  15. loz

    loz
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  16. ianh64

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    What HDCP->DVI converters? I challenge you to find one, or at least one that can not be disabled over the air so it will still work with a legitimate HDCP source in 6 months time.

    Its not the same thing anyway. Since HDCP is put on by the source player/STB, unlicensed DVD players simply do not perform the HDCP encryption and/or allow HD material out over the analogue outputs. For a licensed player, it is forbidden for material with the copy protect flag (not the same as HDCP encryption) to be output in HD without encryption. Infact, a licensed DVD player will even output the material in SD format with macrovision for all the use that is. Its not the same as having an HDCP encrypted data stream and decrypting it.

    -Ian
     
  17. I.T.M.A

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    Bother! & Blast! I thought I might have been on to something!
     
  18. Faust

    Faust
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    Well you can say I am wrong if I am proved wrong, but for now I am keeping my powder dry, however, I stand by my original post. Sky will provide component out for Hi Def - reason? to appeal to the broadest audience base possible. As for HDCP, as component would be able to bypass this, I fully expect them to use something similar to what they use now for Sky Box Office. Don't believe me? watch this space.
     
  19. ianh64

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    Faust, are you saying that Sky will provide a HD component output for *all* HD output or only for material that is not marked as copy protected with copy protected material being downscaled to SD?

    I can't see the studios allowing Sky access to their HD material unless it is copy protected. They may give Sky access to some of their material, but not all.

    Not being a Sky owner, does anyone know if Sky uses Macrovision on their STB's? If so, how much material is marked copy protected and thus has macrovision?
     
  20. jimg

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    Is that not clear?

    Or that ! :rolleyes:
     
  21. loz

    loz
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    Sorry dont believe you, for the simple reason of what "broadest base"?
    There is currently a very, very, very (did I say very?) small number of people out of the several million Sky subscribers who have HD capable sets but without HDCP.
    The vast, vast huge majority of customers that Sky are targetting haven't got an HD set of ANY description yet. THEY will all be buying HDCP enabled sets over the coming months, years.
    Sky have never being averse to saying you have to buy this equipment to use our service. Did they pander to people who had existing satelitte receivers? Or people with existing PVRs? Nope.
     
  22. loz

    loz
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    I would also note as significant that Sky themselves have stopped selling their own Sky branded HD resolution capable but NOT HD ready (i.e. not HDMI) plasma and LCD displays.
     
  23. jimg

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    Faust,
    Have a look at the HDMI site http://www.hdmi.org/ and you will see that Panasonic and Sony are founder members. They do have compliant sets in other markets, they have chosen to hold them back from the UK market.

     
  24. Mr Sparkle

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    Absolutely agree! If Sky broadcast HD content then they will need to make it available for the many consumers who will not have HD compatible TV's/Projectors etc.

    There is also likely to be a switch over period when both current and HD content will be broadcast.

    It is quite possible Sky STB providers will make a new HD only set top box for all true HD (720p, 1080i) users. Naturally there will be a huge cost for the new 'Sky HD' service STB......much like there is for Sky+ today.

    By the time the dust has settled on HD broadcasts most of todays viewing technology will have been superseded.

    So don't worry....

    Mr Sparkle
     
  25. neilmcl

    neilmcl
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    I don't know if anyone's noticed but the official specs of the new Sky HD stb lists a PVR which probably means that Sky will be initially aiming it's HD content at existing and new Sky+ customers only. As these customers already pay a premium for this service I don't think Sky will be that bothered initially at supplying HD to only a select few.
     
  26. jimg

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    You are viewing HD material now on SKY, much of the the material you are watching was recorded in HD and probably with HDCP. However there are no issues when you watch it in SD, this situation will continue for a long time and those people who pay out for later this year for the new HD STB will be able to watch it as a true digital HD image.
     
  27. loz

    loz
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    Well they are already providing SD content and equipment.
    If you don't have an HD compatible display, why on earth would you subscribe to an HD service.

    Sky have already said the new HD box will downsample and output standard SD for non HD displays.
     
  28. MAW

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    The problem with that might or might not occur. HDCP chipsets are from a limited range of licensed manufacturers, who have to abide by a set of rules, one of which is not flogging them to folks who make these little boxes. If 'discovered' and action is taken, the broadcaster, possibly even the conent provider, can take the chipset off the HDCP list, and stop it working. This would of course nobble every device with the chipset.....
     
  29. ianh64

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    I don't know what the granularity of the device 'secret keys are' that can be added to a blacklist, but it certainly isn't as course as chipset level or even at the manufacturer level. My gut (and its a big one at that) feeling is that it is at product level but it could be possible that it is at individual item level. So if one set of keys are compromised, then only the single device that they were spoofed from would be blacklisted. In this case, other people with the same item would be unaffected. However, this does assume that the powers that be who issue the device secret keys can generate and issue in bulk.
     
  30. MAW

    MAW
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    Ian, I'm going on what's been said on the Hi def forum, digital spy, Cebit and here also. It's pretty coarse, certainly not at item level, maybe if we assume the chips are cloned from a known HDCP device, just those devices would be affected. HDCP it seems is not as clever as Hollywood would like, this has repecussions when it is compromised.
     

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