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Is DLP dead in the water???

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Voo, Sep 6, 2005.

  1. Voo

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    I know this is a bit provocative but I felt I had to ask the question :devil: All the recent excitement seems centered around the big developments in LCD and SXRD projectors. I've heard almost nothing about DLP developments (other than a few price drops). Am I missing something? From what I can see, this new bunch of LCD/SXRD projectors (particularly from Sony) look set to all but wipe out the DLP competition. The new specifications are amazing and as long as the claims are at least half true, DLP doesn't appear to have any answers (short of a £3000 3 chipper)....

    I know you can't go on specs alone but as far as i'm concerned, DLP needs to get off it's pedestal and come out with it's begging bowl for me to be tempted :D
     
  2. Peter Parker

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    If these things perform as well as their specs suggest, you could well be right!

    No technology is perfect of course, and LCD and SXRD have their own foibles, but I am certainly interested in how the new SXRD will look. The HS50 didn't kill DLP as was predicted, but the HS60 could be everything the 50 was meant to be. I'm glad Sony hasn't given up and has tried harder with the new model.

    Definitely exciting times so I for one can't wait. Whoever gets one please invite me round. :)

    Gary.
     
  3. phillfyspoon

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    they will have to do something with epson,sanyo,panasonic releasing projectors and sony with a new technology which seems to be the dream PJ.
     
  4. Voo

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    The majority of DLP projector manufacturers seem to have doggedly stuck to their pricing policies. Surely sooner or later they're going to have to buckle and dramatically reduce prices. I have visions of board meetings (e.g. Optoma, Sim2 etc) where none of the directors wants to be the first to pull their head out of the sand! I for one would like to see a good old battle between DLP and LCD/SXRD. Alas, at the moment it looks like a one horse race :(
     
  5. squibbly

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    Let's think about what's happening here. None of the new wave of projectors (LCD and SXRD) are here, and none have been reviewed yet (apart from the German review of the preproduction Z4). Being the technogeeks that we all are (and I class myself as one of the worst), we are throbbing gently over the (deliberately) leaked specs and pornographic images of gleaming silvery flanks and come-to-bed lenses. The LCD manufacturers want us to covet these things.

    At this precise moment in time though, in the shops, you cannot buy a better image for £3k than an Optoma H79. Optoma et al have enough time to look at what is coming out of CEDIA and when it is going to be released. They might want to also check out the PQ of these new beasts. Pricing cuts may then follow.

    If the LCD plot goes to plan they should be able to deliver images that are getting near to the DC3 chips, but I doubt they will be better (save, maybe the HS60).

    The Sony VW100 is a different matter entirely. This is a huge price v performance leap - quite unprecedented - that must have caught the DLP crowd by surprise and will probably cause them to completely rethink their current marketing strategy (which I would have thought would be, get 3 chippers to sub £10k this year, maybe some small drops in DC3 prices, then bring in 1080p chips late next year in single and 3 chip models (at maybe £20k!), then drop the 720p technology pricing further). The Sony rewrites the top end, so the main casualty would be 3 chip 720p DLP. Why would you buy one at anything over £4k? The spec of the VW100 isn't just slightly better, it is MASSIVELY better and could be half the price of the SIM3 that excited us all last week. They would have to be charging £6k for a 1080p 3 chipper NOW and they haven't even announced the chip yet.

    It will be interesting therefore to see how much the other 3 chippers come out at (presumably if SIM2 is already there, the others won't be far behind), since they (and expensive single chippers) are now unsellable at stupid prices. At least to the informed.

    The trouble for us poor folk, is that there isn't such a massive threat to DLP at a sub-£4k level. Just the new impressively specced LCDs that may or may not have solved LCDs main problems.

    Interesting times though, and I know I'd be one of the first to the counter if DLP 3-chippers suddenly appeared at £3k (which I would suggest is what we're all actually thinking of when we see the VW100, it appearing to be the natural price point with the advent of the VW100), but maybe DLP manufacturers think otherwise or they have just been quieter than the other technologies and will hit us with shock and awe tactics at CEDIA this week!

    Either way, I'm a bit sweaty!

    Squibbly
     
  6. Jeff

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    A couple of things about the VW100, firstly it's not a very bright projector even compared to the C3X lite. You wouldn't want to go for something much bigger than an 80" screen. I also not sure about dynamic Iris technology, I'd want to see it first.
     
  7. Zag

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    Good analysis of the situation there squibbly. I think certainly at the mid to high end DLP is really looking like it's on the ropes at the moment and has been caught out by a swift uppercut in the form of the Sony VW100.

    There's rumours of a piecemeal Ti 1080P chip appearing at CEDIA but not in the form of ready for production chip/projector.

    Even if there was a single chip DLP 1080P projector appearing at CEDIA I wouldn't pay more than 3/4 K for it if I could get an SXRD projector with no fear of rainbows for a couple of grand more.

    I have expected all along that a few 720P 3 chippers would appear at this years CEDIA but unless they radically bring down their prices to around the 4K mark they're just not going to sell in any numbers.

    I think the problem now faced by DLP is the fact that 3 chip DLPs are much more expensive to design and build then SXRD. To sync the mirrors and align the optics for 3 chippers may just prove too involved and expensive to be able to compete with the fixed panel SXRD device.

    If SXRD starts to kill off the high end DLP market (which now looks certain) how much longer will it take to dominate the lower end of the market?

    If in 2 years time £2000 will buy you a SXRD 1080P Sony VPL-HS80 with contrast of 20,000:1, where does that leave DLP???

    In the budget sector only probably.... :devil:
     
  8. squibbly

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    ...and Screenplay have just halved the price of the Screenplay 777 in the US and given it a DC3 chipset. Still not as cheap as the $10k speculated price of the VW100!

    Good point Zag, I hadn't realised the 3 chippers were so expensive to make. They're saying on avsforum that the new 777 price is cheaper than it costs Infocus to make them - and they've got a load of unsold DC2 models still left. The SXRD price cut means that in order to sell any 3 chippers in numbers they would have to sell at a significant loss to avoid losing market share and try to reduce manufacturing costs asap. Otherwise they're forced out of the market (though there will, of course, be a demand for brighter PJs). We don't want that.

    Blimey, it's better than Corrie, isn't it!

    Squibbly
     
  9. PJTX100

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    I certainly don't think DLP is dead in the water and would be horrified if it were. Having two competing suitors for our well-earned dosh can only be a good thing. I certainly don't want LCD manufacturers to become as complacent as DLP manufacturers have perhaps been over the past year or two....PJ :)
     
  10. monopole

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    As I understand it, SXRD is like having a solid state DLP chip (i.e. no moving parts like the micro-mirror on a DLP chip). So this begs the question: does the Sony SXRD PJ use a colour wheel or does it utilise 3 SXRD panels?
     
  11. NicolasB

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    I'm not aware that any LCOS (SXRD/DILA) device uses a colour wheel. They're all 3-panel, as far as I know.
     
  12. Jeff

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    The original rumour about the VW-100 that came up a few months ago was that it was going to be a single panel SXRD device. Single panel LCOS has been done before.
     
  13. Carl Ed

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    Only in rear projection (in Philips' ill fated attempt at it). All LCoS front projectors have been three chippers.
     
  14. Cinematic

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    I think in terms of cinema feeling still LCD is far from DLP. Even the latest models with D5 panels. Look promising on specs (CR 5000:1) but watching them will tell you it's still LCD. They just don't convince me. Competition is a great thing, so DLP should drop their prices with all DC2 and DC3 chips.
     
  15. PJTX100

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    Happily they convince me, and many others, hence it will only get better. And judging by some of the cinema pictures I've seen lately I'd rather they don't become too "cinematic"!...PJ :)
     
  16. Peter Parker

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    LOL, Sad but true. :)

    Gary.
     
  17. inzaman

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    :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

    Maybe the DLP manufacturers have taken their eye off the ball concentrating mainly on trying to eliminate or reduce the RBE (i.e their weakness), with some gains in contrast due to more colour segments etc.

    LCD manufacturers have concentrated on their weaknesses, i.e poor contrast and SDE which they seemed to have triumphed in. Also on LCDs side is Sony which has many synergies with this technology i.e video cameras, lcd displays etc. Other LCD manufacturers can then reverse engineer and follow suit, as they have done.
    Also Sony have integration with display devices by actually manufacturing dvd players, games machines, blu ray and actually own a film studio.

    Are there any DLP manufacturers as large as say a Sony who can invest the R&D and have those types of synergies and integration? i.e how big are say Marantz, Sim, Optoma?

    I imagine that TI would love Sony to switch to using DLP as opposed to LCD technology.
     
  18. FlyingBig

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    Isn't it possible for an LCD projector to develop dead pixels? If i am correct that is the reason i will never ever purchase an LCD projector no matter how good it is in comparision to my DLP H30.
     
  19. NicolasB

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    Both LCD and DLP can develop dead pixels.
     
  20. Jules

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    In reality, post-production pixel failures are rare.
    I've had 3 LCD projectors over a period of about 4 years, and none sprouted dead pixels with age.
     
  21. Timbo21

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    DLP surviving might be down to how it compares in terms of filmic look to the others. Each technology has a certain 'look', I found LCD slightly cold & digital or 'non-filmic' So, I wonder what, despite the CR etc, the 'look' of the newer technologies will be?
     
  22. PJTX100

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    Reminds me of the sentiment vinyl junkies use regarding CDs...PJ ;)
     
  23. DEANO-B

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    We all know of the forthcoming LCD PJs (Panny/Sony/Hitatchi/Sanyo) - They are going to retail at below £1500ish, what DLP PJs are going to be there competition :confused:
     
  24. jriihi

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    Hm sanyo plv-z4 5000:1 720p lcd costs £1225.
     
  25. Joe Fernand

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  26. DEANO-B

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    If you look at the size of DLP companies such as Marantz, Sim, Optoma, Ben Q - and then look at the size of the companies backing LCD technology like Sony,Panasonic,Hitatchi,Sanyo - I think it speaks for itself. The LCD backers I believe have realised that they could overcome the pitfalls of LCD weaknesses (VB/dead pixels/black levels etc) and make a affordable product, whereas affordable DLP machines will have a colour wheel which will always produce RBE. If DLP was the future I'm sure most of the big players in home electronics would be producing PJs and pumping lots of cash into R&D.
     
  27. squibbly

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    The Benq PE7700. Still easily the best bang for the buck in the DLP world.

    Interesting to consider what affect these new LCD projectors, will have on the (sub £3k) pj market. I note that quite a lot of us contributing to this thread are interested in LCD due to our sensitivity to some of the negative qualities of DLP (namely RBE and headaches). We want them to trounce DLP so we don't feel like second class citizen in our little techno avforums microcosm. Yet, despite the extravagent claims within the spec sheets, will these new boys be able to top DLP images? The HS50 doesn't and the specs (on paper) of most of these new beasts aren't as good as it. I suggest that most of them will get near (though we have reports that VB is still on D5 panels), but maybe only the HS60 will get there. Thus, will DLP (whose +£6k pricing strategy has been blown out of the water by the Ruby) continue to differentiate itself as being superior to LCD due to its aforementioned filmic images? I thought the Benq would cause the DC2 chipped machines to fall to around £2k. Instead Optoma plopped in the improved (but not greatly) DC3 chip, dropped the price £500 and it's take your pick. The H79, does after all, kick out a better image than the Benq and quite a few people are willing to pay that premium over the (undemoable) Benq. So maybe at this end the pricing structure will remain intact: significant premiums for 720p DC3? Maybe this can last another two years until 1080p SXRD machines start hitting £3k.

    All the interest is in the price range above. Sony's Ruby has effectively sabotaged DLPs strategy of drip feeding us the newest technology at sports car prices. So how do DLP manufacturers (who, I would say, do not have the financial clout of the LCD manufacturers: which sound richer: Sony, Panasonic, Sanyo or Infocus, Optoma, Benq???) respond? I really don't want them to go under due to the Sony, but how do they grow and sell their new technology and cover their R&D costs?

    Interesting times, but I'm unsure what it means for us down here with real world wallets.

    Squibbly
     
  28. Joe Fernand

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    Hello all

    Just a quick note re Panasonic and LCD vs. DLP.

    In the Presentation market in Europe Panasonic now have a product line-up that consists of :

    Five (sub 2.6Kg) 'Portable' LCD projectors.

    and

    Four (3500 ANSI to 7000 ANSI) 'Installation' DLP Projectors

    Its not a case of every company only going with one technology.

    Best regards

    Joe
     
  29. DEANO-B

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    Surley this applies to the 'Presentation market' though and not the 'Home Cinema' market.
     
  30. PJTX100

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    As I've said before the last thing anyone should want is for one technology to get a significant march on the other. DLP did a while back and look where it got us, overpriced DLP machines, retailers and magazines (living in a techno microcosm?) who poo-poo the very thought of LCD being in any way comparable to DLP.

    To be honest all this "filmic / cinematic" sentiment doesn't impress me. Strikes me as the argument to use when all the spec differentiations run out. I want clarity, punch, contrast, brightness, detail, smoothness. Don't care how it's delivered. DLP or LCD, I'll be there...PJ :)
     

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