Is an amp's output important to YOU when choosing a DAP?

Is an amp's output important to YOU when choosing a DAP?


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HD3 said:
So taking into account that Line level is a standard level

No it's not. There is a recognised minimum line out level, and the Sony meets that level. The iPod goes beyond it, as do a couple of other players. Modern decks go quite a long way beyond this minimum level.


Or is the i-pods line out amp in the dock its self?

Who knows.

It's in the iPod. And I know :p
 
So What is an example where I can hear the power limitations of the HD5?
So far it sounds better, but it doesn't go as loud. According to the car explanation (hehe it makes interesting) then the motorbike will be slower but that was an indication of volume, so basically the HD5 will have less volume? To me the ipod still sounded lifeless (bass improved a bit) with its headphones, even with mine it actually sounds alright, but still distorts, so does the HD5, does that have anything to do with power?
 
There is a recognised minimum line out level

I didn't know there was a minimum; I only knew that they vary as a wrote "(well almost)".

I’ve done a little test; I was at a mate’s house earlier, we plugged both players into his mixer and tested the difference (ran EQ flat) (he doesn’t have a dock, but a lead which plugs into the underneath of the I-pod, so it is still using the lineout). There was no great difference. The track we played made the most difference. Although not a science lab I think it was fair; all music on CDs doesn’t tend to vary more than 3 db. We also played the same track and cross faded between them. What did have a higher line level than the I-pod and the HD3 was his professional CD deck. – It killed them both in quality and output.

I personally don’t think there’s a difference to rave about in terms on line-out level!

Conclusion: There’s almost no different. (In line-out level)

However, the I-pod may still have a better earphone output (Original topic), (we didn’t as far to test that). Thing is I’ve never had an issue with volume, my HD3 is too loud as it is, I can’t bare it at max volume, if you can your most likely damaging your ears.

Anyway after all this- going back to the ORIGNAL point; the amp in the HD3 must be capable of higher levels higher than this term “5mw”. We can prove that the HD3 must be able to output a level as high as the “20mw” I-pod as when we plug phones into the HD3 they distort with line out switched on, and at max volume on the I-pod they may little.

This is NOT to say that the HD3 or I-pod has more power, if anything I would say that the I-pod potentially has more power (but I have never made any comments against this, just that the output of HD must be more capable of 5mw). Weather that ever gets used or not is another matter.

But forget the I-pod Vs HD contest; I personally think they both have a great output.
 
Is an amp's output important to YOU when choosing a DAP?

Surely the only question here is "is it loud enough" and the answer to that is fundamentally dependent on 2 basic things (assuming your hearing is average of course!)

1. The available power output from the DAP
2. The impedence and efficiency of your particular earphones.

There is a third influencing factor which is the volume at which your files have been ripped which can vary enormously but that is generally under the user's control so doesn't rightly belong in the discussion. We'll also forget the line out for a moment because that should be a standard level and I think what we are really interested in is headphone volume.

Without listening to your own music through your own headphones it's sometimes going to be extremly difficult to judge whether a device will be loud enough for you because manufacturers have different ways of expressing their outputs and simply claiming xx mW or xx dB or whatever is somewhat meaningless unless the reference impedence is also quoted which it often isn't. The Sony NW-HD5 which blandly states 180mv but doesn't say if that is in headphone or line out mode and makes no mention of impedence or whether that is before or after the well know hack to increase the volume.

Someone earlier on stated "Wattage is the measurment of the output power of a device or in this case it will be the headphones"

Hmmmm...close but not quite right. Watts are measure of heat or dissipation and are a product of 3 factors, the voltage the current and the resistance.

As an example let's take something everybody will understand, a 3kw electric kettle. In the interest of simplicity I'll take a small liberty by assuming that the mains voltage is not 240v but 250v.

According to Ohms law Watts are the product of volts times current so, knowing that our kettle is rated at 3000w and the voltage is 250v, it's a simple matter to work back and say the current is Watts divided by Volts which is 3000/250 or 12amps. Now we know this we can also work out the resistance of the kettle element. Resistance is Volts divided by Current so 240/12 gives us 20 Ohms.

So, now we know that our kettle has a resistance of 20 Ohms and with 250 volts applied it will draw 12 amps and produce 3000 watts of heat.

Now lets imagine that the mains supply is adtually a DAP and the kettle a pair of headphones. I'll take one further liberty here by the way and assume resistance is the same as impedence which it isn't but it will be near enough for our example.

We now have a DAP which gives out 250v into our 20 Ohm headphones producing 3000w of power. Lets now change the voltage output and see what happens (all in round figures). Lets reduce it by 20% to 200v.

Using Ohms law again 200v driving 20 ohms now produces 2000 watts so immediately you see that a drop of just 20% in voltage has reduced the wattage by 33%, you'd certainy notice that!

Once you start fiddling with more than one element in the equation, as it would be in the real world, things can start to change quite dramatically.

For instance, all else being equal, a dap with just 10% less output voltage (225v) driving a pair of headphones with 50% higer resistance (30 Ohms) would only give 1700w, almost half, and so on and so on.

This is all a gross simplification but in terms of illustrating how complicated it is to quantify how loud a device might be simply from the makers figures I think it is useful.

Probably the best thing you can do is choose your headphones carefully and look for the ones with the highest sensitvity, usually quoted in dB micro Volts, and I would be wary of anything under about 95.
 
KiNeL said:
Is an amp's output important to YOU when choosing a DAP?

Surely the only question here is "is it loud enough"
It's quite the opposite to me but I suppose that's personal preference. I don't listen loud because I don't want to go deaf but still want good quality sound rather than very loud distorted sound. :)
 
The wattage point is what i was trying to make earlyier, that it cannot be used as a measure as the phones will vary. Its almost used to sell an item. Am i right in beliving In the "old" days they used to use impedence much more.

And nothing can be sold as db, - the manufacturers haven't gone that far just yet.

Someone earlier on stated "Wattage is the measurment of the output power of a device or in this case it will be the headphones"

Hmmmm...close but not quite right. Watts are measure of heat or dissipation and are a product of 3 factors, the voltage the current and the resistance.

Correct, i understand most of the concepts i was just simplfying for the forum. I was trying to say its where the power "dissipates" to and the it doesn't all go to sound, it can be lost in other things, i.e heat.

This is all a gross simplification but in terms of illustrating how complicated it is to quantify how loud a device might be simply from the makers figures I think it is useful.

Its brill, its certainly helped me understand a few things. As i said earlyier in this tread, volts/current/watts etc are easy to and often confused and not understood.

Thanks for the help and info on this matter. Great to have you here KiNel :clap:
 
eviljohn2 said:
A very low geared motor bike so it has loads of torque but not so much top speed. :)

Ok. But i meant like when im listening to the HD5, what in the sound will show the limitations of the power? Is it basically just how loud the volume goes? Because its plenty loud for me, so does that mean the power output wont make a difference at a certain volume?
 
A big pair of cans that suck a lot of power will show the limitations - bass notes will sound distorted and hollow generally.
 
Typically when running my HD5 i can get some decent volume levels if I am using the supplied headphones, yet the sound is a bit crap. However if i want better sound and run them through my Sennheiser HD515's I get better sound but the volume isn't quite there. If I want the best of both worlds I have to run the HD5 through the amp on the shelf (Denon) and plug the Sennheisers into that.
 
I see so its volume related. Fair enough, for my phones the volume is loud enough so the power limitations wont show? But i definately think Sony should up the power for the sake of people that want to use fat cans.
 
To be meaningful an output spec should state what level level is produced into what load with what degree of distortion. i.e. xxx mW into xxx Ohms at xx% thd (third harmonic distortion) and I can't remember ever seeing any portable device state this.

After all that of course you've got your hedphones to consider as they too will also distort at some level.

I think some folks lose sight of the fact that a DAP is first and foremost a portable device intended to be used on the move and as such it's probable that only a small minority of users are going to want to use them with big fat headphones so there have to be comprimises.

Normal headphones are typically low impedence (resitance), typically in the order of 10's of Ohms, in order match the output of a hifi amp, so when plugged into a DAP which is designed to work into a few thousand ohms they will perform abysmally.

In it's simplest form then there are 2 fundamentals which determine the output level and quality of a DAP:

It's output capability (in whatever terms) BEFORE hitting distortion.

The impedence and efficiency of the headphones BEFORE hitting distortion.

Unfortunately within both of these factors there are infinite variations so it comes back to what I said earlier that the only way to know for sure if a particular DAP is right for you is to listen to your own music on your own earphones BEFORE you buy.
 
Okay, so it appears from my limited survey that I'm wrong: you guys DO care about amp output.

Fair play ...
 

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