is all this evident discontent

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
more about the workplace than taxes , immigrants etc. I mean with more and more people taking sickies or leaving their jobs because of intolerable pressures or bad atmospheres it got me thinking that maybe this is where a huge chunk of our disatisfaction really lies.My wife who ,runs 3 offices at a college, always took great pride in her work but she has had enough. "Too many changes and now this new principle we've got wants us to constantly justify our jobs".Several people have left and although her job is relatively safe she said she now finds it hard to motivate herself and wants to leave within 3 years "Sod the pension" she said "this is too much"I believe work should be a positive experience but from what i can see for millions its anything but:thumbsdow.The only winners are lousy management and constantly demanding more and more, shareholders.Maybe employees should say in tandem "nuff is nuff we are taking some action as the unions did back in the eighties
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
Would tend to agree LGS. Everyone is sick of the long hours, the lack of recognition for what they do, the lack of a decent pension waiting for them at the end of it, and the fact that management seem to get ever more wealthy, and make as many mistakes that cost other peoples jobs as they see fit, but are never out of work themselves as a result of it.

Add to that, with regards the public sector, govts (by which I mean the last two) increasing obsession with evaluating, outside management, everyone within an inch of their lives, and the feeling that govt doesn't trust you, or want to pay you for what you do, and well, it's no wonder we are all naffed off.

The press of course don't help by running constant scare stories and inflammatory headlines, but frankly I don't accept that excuse. People should know better, or learn from history, that immigrants are the oldest scapegoat in the book. All the press are doing on that score is playing on peoples uglier side.

As your wife says, everyone in Education (and policing and the NHS, and everywhere else in the civil service) is sick of the constant change and being asked to justify their jobs all the time.

I said to my own wife recently, the easiest way for Gordon Brown to win back public support, is to say three words:- leave, well, alone. If we had even 10 months without govt changing direction in health, education, transport, Environmental policy it would give everyone a chance to settle down and get on with their jobs without having to rush around like headless chickens while they race to meet the next bloody change as the last one comes up behind them!

But it won't happen. Not under Brown, and not under Cameron. Neither of the two main parties have the guts to stand up to the press and say 'no more'. Govt should decide policy on what's best for country, not to appease the media.

Which is the way it's been for the last 25 years............... :rolleyes:
 

HMHB

Distinguished Member
Another problem that I'm seeing more these days is that companies expect people to work long hours for no extra pay. They seem to measure your ability and worth to the company by how many hours you do a week. Whatever happened to the 37.5 hours per week ?
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
Thing is m,y wife is very much the uncomplaining type, she has always just got on with her job and never made enemies so when she tells me that things arent great I am inclined to believe her 100%. She worked most of the her life in the private sector often thrown into the deep end undertaking management jobs for which she had no training, but she always willing.She worked long hours rejecting breaks"i havent the time". she'd tell me. You always felt she was being encouraged and appreciated.
When she joined the college things were very different as its so structured. Nevberthe less she created her own fiefdom with her 3 offices which included staff she got on with well and who were equally willing. The principle wasnt the easiest guy but on the whole things were ok. Then he resigned. The deputy was not asked to apply for the vacancy but another bloke took over- new broom sweeps clean:eek:A permanent state of insecurity took hold. Change after change after change. Moral began to go down. Loads of extra pressure and one tries ones damnedest but one doesnt get the right encouragement or any praise. I dare say the principal when his contract is up will be offered a substantial increase to his salary whilst his underlings have to put up with 1 or 2 % if they are lucky.That is the way today.When things go wrong staff get the sack, when things go right head honcho grabs all the praise
The way i see it is the public sector should never have to justify itself in the same manner as the private as it is not ,by definition, governed by the same strictures. Its about providing a service be it in education ,health or whatever.What it should be concentrating on is being EFFECTIVE rather than efficient. The rewards in financial terms are never going to be as great but they should come in other ways.When moral is low I view that as a major negative for which those in charge should be brought to account.I am afraid the current status quo is very much part of the ghastly doctrine of Thatcherism
 

Logo Hater

Active Member
LGS, don't you think that one of the greatest problems these days is that far too many people are put into positions of authority, who in fact are the very last people that should be.

I noticed this trend before I left the place where I had worked for 39 years. When I started people were promoted on their ability and their experience. Now it seems that you can come out of college or university with a few exam passes and theoretically be qualified for a management role, with no regard to experience, or knowledge, of the task they are expected to run. This demoralises the people already there who have the skills and experience, especially when the incoming new "Boss" changes things for the sake of changing them, to justify their existance, with no consideration or understanding of the distress and confusion they are creating.

I hate this country and what is happening to it, and it's not all Maggies fault. This totally inept Government that are currently in place have a lot to answer for, and they will, come the next election.:hiya::hiya:
 

overkill

Distinguished Member
LGS, don't you think that one of the greatest problems these days is that far too many people are put into positions of authority, who in fact are the very last people that should be.

I noticed this trend before I left the place where I had worked for 39 years. When I started people were promoted on their ability and their experience. Now it seems that you can come out of college or university with a few exam passes and theoretically be qualified for a management role, with no regard to experience, or knowledge, of the task they are expected to run. This demoralises the people already there who have the skills and experience, especially when the incoming new "Boss" changes things for the sake of changing them, to justify their existance, with no consideration or understanding of the distress and confusion they are creating.

I hate this country and what is happening to it, and it's not all Maggies fault. This totally inept Government that are currently in place have a lot to answer for, and they will, come the next election.:hiya::hiya:
Management in this country has always been that way. Going way back in time. It has nothing to do with this, the last, or any in living memory. It goes back to the way the English class system frowned on 'training' for any level, and the way the middle (and upper) classes viewed their subordinates. It's better to have another incompetent from the same class than someone from a 'lesser' class who knows the job. Nothings changed. At the same time (up until very recently) training and education that is based in the sciences and business was frowned upon for the same reason. And Before you argue, read around the topic. ;)

Hence we lost our lead so many times, over such a long period, in so many areas of the economy.

It is Maggies fault. That govt changed working practises, crushed TU power, introduced the 'evaluation to death' process that blights the public sector, covertly created the benefit culture (I know, I was working in it), de-valued the examinations process, and re-wrote all the consumer credit acts that have allowed people to get themselves into so much debt. The current govt is huge disappointment in that it was too inept to chuck most of that benighted thinking in the bin.

However, would people have accepted going back to the pre, 'borrow till you bust' days, or the press allow govt to stop the stupid, 'test everyone within an inch of their lives' process. No, and err', no.

It's also a fallacy to think the next govt will be any different to the current one. But you keep clinging to that comfort blanket. ;)

Right up until it smells so bad you have to bin it.......... and the way Cameron is going that won't be too long. :D Exaggeration is fine, but lying through your teeth when in opposition doesn't bode well for when he's in govt.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
LGS, don't you think that one of the greatest problems these days is that far too many people are put into positions of authority, who in fact are the very last people that should be.

I noticed this trend before I left the place where I had worked for 39 years. When I started people were promoted on their ability and their experience. Now it seems that you can come out of college or university with a few exam passes and theoretically be qualified for a management role, with no regard to experience, or knowledge, of the task they are expected to run. This demoralises the people already there who have the skills and experience, especially when the incoming new "Boss" changes things for the sake of changing them, to justify their existance, with no consideration or understanding of the distress and confusion they are creating.

I hate this country and what is happening to it, and it's not all Maggies fault. This totally inept Government that are currently in place have a lot to answer for, and they will, come the next election.:hiya::hiya:

I have argued repeatedly that when graduates join a firm they should start from the lowest rungs and earn their spurs as they go along. Unfortunately I have beenshot down in here everytime for even suggesting it.It seems that graduates feel its their devine right to walk into a well paid managerial position straight away without having learnt anything first ie they have got no experience.
I am not going to blame any particular individual but I think there is a culture here which say that if you come from a particular background went to the right school / university etc then you must the kind of person who is capable of running things and that therefore you are worth the the pay and bonuses allocated to your position. How many times have i heard 'well you've to to pay the rate for the job in order to "attract top talent" otherwise they'll go abroad' I would like to see concrete evidence of these foreign job offers. My guess is that most corporations wouldnt touch them with a barge pole.To makes matters even more laughable when these captains of industry get found out they are released on extremely generous severance terms, leaving behind a mess :rolleyes:.
I dont hate this country but some aspects leave a lot to be desired
 

loz

Distinguished Member
What a bunch of whining, "world owes me a living" job shirkers.

The world, nor your employer, or the state, doesn't owe you a living. If you don't like it, go work somewhere else.

Is it no wonder this country is on its knees with workers attitudes like this - I don't want to work hard, but I must be paid more, my management is useless - its all their fault (and never mine), yadda, yadda.
 

mjn

Distinguished Member
For once, i agree with LGS.

Must get a doctors appointment :D
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
What a bunch of whining, "world owes me a living" job shirkers.

The world, nor your employer, or the state, doesn't owe you a living. If you don't like it, go work somewhere else.

Is it no wonder this country is on its knees with workers attitudes like this - I don't want to work hard, but I must be paid more, my management is useless - its all their fault (and never mine), yadda, yadda.
you speak from a position of complete ignorance:nono:People do want to work effectively but poor morale and inept management make that difficult.
 

Sporran

Well-known Member
ive been in local government for 16 years, started at 16 on one of them schemes and been in it ever since.

The problem i have seen first hand is not that of change, but the people working there to accept any form of change, albiet good or bad.

The higher up the generation ladder the worse the acceptance becomes.

Not saying this is a generalisation or happens everywhere, just my personal experience.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
I can't believe some of the views expressed here.

Just who is this 'management' that get the blame for everything? Oh yes, they are people like us. They went to the same schools, live in similar houses, shop at the same places. They are all just the same as the rest of us.

I'm edging towards middle management in my organisation. I also went to university. Does this qualify me for also being an inept, autocratic, inhuman fool? Well, I hope not. I went to probably the worst school of anyone posting here, but worked hard to go to college and university. I continue to educate myself, train and take exams. (Got my Prince2 pass notification in the post yesterday actually). I've worked for 15 years now since graduation, in eight different companies and about a dozen different roles. I've taken 25% pay cuts from one job to another to get new skills. I've most certainly paid my dues and got experience. I resent this ridiculous implication that people who are management or who went to university somehow don't deserve what they've got.

Blaming management for everything is a total cop-out. If these managers are such idiots, why isn't it easy to take their job? Surely all these oh-so-competent workers could take their jobs and then do it properly?

Oh yeah, thats why not. It is just a bunch of whiners looking for someone else to blame for their own inadequacies.
 

Stephen Wilde

Active Member
The problem is 'overmanagement' which, in the private sector results in insolvency.

Perhaps that is why our public sector is now insolvent if the figures are totalled up correctly.:eek:

There is an increasing view that central control and direction involving mechanising and standardising every process in a factory style manner results in greater efficiency. Almost everyone is chasing a fantasy, it is the modern fashion and it is being tested to destruction in the public sector.

I was involved with a Law firm for 6 months. They had a manual telling the staff how to do everything. They went bankrupt a couple of years after I told them it wouldn't work.

The fact is that every individual, being different, will tackle every process slightly differently. People are most efficient at tasks when permitted to do things in the way that feels most natural to them. Often people allowed that sort of latitude will automatically do the best thing in the circumnstances using common sense and instinct. They will get great job satisfaction from achieving the result 'their' way.

As soon as a process becomes prescriptive the worker worries more about doing it the 'right' way and additionally being able to demonstrate after the event that the 'right' method was used. That slows him or her down and removes job satisfaction because there is always a threat that someone else using hindsight can complain that it was not done the 'right' way.

Trust and autonomy is destroyed and the worker becomes inefficient and demoralised.

In a competitive world it is the additional efficiency derived from permitting autonomy and avoiding prescription which yields the profit. If you don't get that edge then the enterprise fails.

It's not a political issue and it didn't begin with Thatcher. It did however develop from the management habits of the public sector and has been worsening since the 1960's. Thatcher never got a chance to do anything about the public sector apart from moving loss making nationalised industries into the private sector in order to take pressure off the taxpayers.

The problem has really taken off under Major, Blair and Brown because all of them and their administrations thought that the solution was more management rather than less. Every time they made a well intentioned change it got side tracked into more direction and prescription at huge expense in personnel, time and money.

I see it more as an undesirable side effect of an overconfident, well funded and complacent bureaucracy.

Things will only change when the bills can no longer be met, which is what invariably happens in the private sector.
 

loz

Distinguished Member
you speak from a position of complete ignorance:nono:People do want to work effectively but poor morale and inept management make that difficult.

Then they should get off their a--- and do something about it, not whine or blame others.

Poor morale? Inept management?
Then get another job...
If you stay there in those conditions, then sorry, but you are probably part of the problem... :rolleyes:
 

loz

Distinguished Member
I can't believe some of the views expressed here.

Just who is this 'management' that get the blame for everything? Oh yes, they are people like us. They went to the same schools, live in similar houses, shop at the same places. They are all just the same as the rest of us.

I'm edging towards middle management in my organisation. I also went to university. Does this qualify me for also being an inept, autocratic, inhuman fool? Well, I hope not. I went to probably the worst school of anyone posting here, but worked hard to go to college and university. I continue to educate myself, train and take exams. (Got my Prince2 pass notification in the post yesterday actually). I've worked for 15 years now since graduation, in eight different companies and about a dozen different roles. I've taken 25% pay cuts from one job to another to get new skills. I've most certainly paid my dues and got experience. I resent this ridiculous implication that people who are management or who went to university somehow don't deserve what they've got.

Blaming management for everything is a total cop-out. If these managers are such idiots, why isn't it easy to take their job? Surely all these oh-so-competent workers could take their jobs and then do it properly?

Oh yeah, thats why not. It is just a bunch of whiners looking for someone else to blame for their own inadequacies.

And well done Squiffy. That's the attitude I like to see.
 

williemaykit

Active Member
We live in a society where we are expected to do more with less and work harder. There is no escaping this.

I believe the disillusion and disappointment we face in our roles tends to be due to the perception that the Dilbert principle is being applied (companies tend to systematically promote their least-competent employees to management (generally middle management), in order to limit the amount of damage they're capable of doing) rather than the Peter principle (you are promoted until you are incompetent). Whilst I have seen clear examples of the Dilbert principle being applied, I do not believe that it is not always the case.

Sometimes it is the employees wanting an easy ride through work without focusing on the job they are being employed to do. Instead they choose to spend their time on social networking sites, MSN, etc. They then become resentful when others get promoted over them (who may well be younger). I am not trying to say this is always the case but I worked for one organisation where two key members of staff (non-management) were taking the mickey working when they like, taking time off when they wanted to "work from home". When I tried to do something about it, the staff members in question would go have a whinge in the CEO's ear who would then summons me to a sit down session with HR. I had enough evidence to have these two removed but it took a lot of work to get them out.

Yes I am in senior management but I have worked my butt to get here, working all the way through university climbing up the ladder to have real world skills instead of drinking 4 years of my life away. It has not been easy but I believe I am good at what I do. I develop a good rapport with my team, leaving them to get on with things whilst driving us forward, and sticking with what works. Like I said before, there are some incompetent managers out there but we aren't all to blame.
 

Setenza

Well-known Member
I work short term IT contracts at present.

I'm currently working with a gentleman who is fulltime. We do identical work.

The role needs three people to provide the level of service and cover to the customer.

They have recruited a 3rd person, who is also fulltime. I am leaving at the end of the week. They will back to two and have no plans to employ a third fulltime member of staff or another contractor.

I have a job description (which is nowhere near what I do). Try to do more, but I won't allow liberties to be taken.

I sometime displease my fulltime colleague as he works his hours plus another 50% to do his job. He won't delegate as he doesn't wish to lose control of the work or trust the abilities of others. I do what my best, but stick to the terms of my contract.

He doesn't earn any extra money for his efforts. He sometimes gets expenses, and a hearty pat on the back, but that's pretty much the size of it.

He's often tired, and he's not changing the long term problems. He's continuously firefighting and not really tackling the fundamental issues, which are mainly procedural and administrative. In a years time, I'm prepared to bet he'll not be that far forward.

He objects to the fact that I arrive 20 minutes before my shifts starts and then go and make coffee, have breakfast or chat to staff. Why should I give them 20 minutes free. If you give then they'll take and learn to expect it.

If you have to put in more hours than proscribed to o your job then you either are not doing right or you simply need another pair of hands.

Now, as my colleague is a fulltimer, I can understand that you'll put in more. I've been there myself. But you shouldn't have to become a slave to your work.

A contract of a fulltime job description clearly lays down what you do. Why do more for nothing.

Me, I'm flexible but the meter is always running.

There is a unspoken rule and culture that once you reach certain positions or certain grades you have to give more than just whats asked. Hours of employment go out the window. Taking work home is just expected. Your available outside of offices hours.

Well it needs to stop.

I got a call once from a member of staff in a remote office expecting support in the middle of the night (He was calling from Kazakhstan). He was most put out when I told him I'm only available 9 to 5. He really thought I wasn't playing the game, and was letting the company down.

I point out the fact I was not a corporate slave and that I worked in a profession that afforded me independence. I also gave him some advise regarding sex and travel.

But no everyone has this ability.

There's too many under skilled people in both the work force and middle and senior management, causing grief for those who are competent. The whole ideology and employment process needs a rethink.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
Then they should get off their a--- and do something about it, not whine or blame others.

Poor morale? Inept management?
Then get another job...
If you stay there in those conditions, then sorry, but you are probably part of the problem... :rolleyes:
i work for myself :rolleyes:hence ignorance comment.I am talking about others. I am talking about situations which are just not right wherever they may be. People do get up and walk out but that is symptom of a malaise caused by poor management.If someone takes over the running of a firm and things deteriorate , people leave, moral goes down , then invariably he is the cause.:rolleyes:. My wife has given herself 3 years to leave .As she is on a final salary scheme it'll affect her pension quite badly so its not a decision she has taken lightly. I know her to have a very good work ethic so if she complains then I know there is something wrong.There is nothing wrong with complaining If one gets a lousy meal or bad service thats what one should do. A good firm would have proper procedures in place to take up complaints.Trouble is there is too much of a put up and shut up mentality here.People should be able to be proactive( via unions) and when something is rotten take action to remove a bad manager/boss or change things accordingly.Some managers are incredibly devious and manipulative . A friend of mine ( secretary) had a new boss takeover who promptly began to make her life as uncomfortable as possible, constantly nit picking, undermining and finding fault with her work. After a while it became clear he wanted her out( because he wanted a dolly bird in her place) but couldnt sack her so he hoped she would just leave. She didnt, instead she colated as much evidence as she could over a period of time and presented it to the relevant people. He was eventually relieved of his position and a month later she left anyway and now has a much better paid job. If one is determined and courageous enough it is possible to take on these clowns for the betterment of others as well as one self. One should not let bad managers get away with things.
A good boss should be able to motivate and organise . He should have the interests of the company , the goods / services, customers AND the staff at heart. He should also be fair. When the company does well then they should all be rewarded( not just himself) in the form of bonuses.He can be autocratic (as in Alex Ferguson) but he would always have the respect of his staff who he would know how to get the best out of.
 
D

Deleted member 13294

Guest
i work for myself :rolleyes:hence ignorance comment.I am talking about others. I am taking about situations which are just not right wherever they may be. People do get up and walk out but that is symptom of a malaise caused by poor management.If someone takes over the running of a firm and things deteriorate , people leave, moral goes down , then he is the cause.:rolleyes:

Of course he is the cause. Never feckless, whinging lazy staff, unwilling to accept change and then slagging off their company when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions?
 

Nimby

Distinguished Member
We live in difficult times. It is increasingly difficult to measure our own worth when there is no pile of widgits to work through each day. Reward seems to go to those least able to show any real qualities of leadership. Fast track promotion is often a recipe for disaster in my experience. Those with most qualifications have least experience and usually leave a wake of human debris out of all proportion to their actual contribution. We have all become moaners because it is better tolerated and it is believed that it may help release tension.

I have seen stress related sick leave rise rapidly over the years. Not long ago being stressed was a sacking offense or labelled you as a loony. Now middle management takes months off at a time. Ground floor workers are threatened with the sack for a couple of weeks sick leave where there is no other means for them to escape from the stresses of the workplace. Even the visible rewards for our activities have become rather diffuse. A car, a house, a holiday and a kitchen? Is this really the sum total of our desires? None of these things work properly and have to be constantly maintained at considerable expense. Constant noise, movement and endless distractions are added to firefighting work practices. That said, much work is actually rather boring and usually involves servicing equally unhappy human beings. The longer I live the more value I place on those who actually try to be helpful. Often with a friendly smile. They are the essential lubrication so lacking in the endlessly grasping society of today.

There is an ill-defined sense of injustice about life these days. The media terrify us with their endless reports of disasters waiting to happen. Or moronic rich people showing off. Or getting away with things which we wouldn't. The same could be said for all of us to some degree if we were honest.

We place money at the top of our list of wants. Then find that things aren't nearly as much fun once they are actually in our possession. I am now finding that I get far more kicks out of not owning something than I did from lusting after it. The grass on the other side of the fence really is greener. And I usually find that I prefer it that way.

So basically I am at least as screwed up as you lot but hopefully a little more satisfied with my lot. I now have far more things than I will ever need except for the space (and the youthful enthusiasm) to properly enjoy them. Cheer up! It can only get worse! :)
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
We live in difficult times. It is increasingly difficult to measure our own worth when there is no pile of widgits to work through each day. Reward seems to go to those least able to show any real qualities of leadership. Fast track promotion is often a recipe for disaster in my experience. Those with most qualifications have least experience and usually leave a wake of human debris out of all proportion to their actual contribution. We have all become moaners because it is better tolerated and it is believed that it may help release tension.

I have seen stress related sick leave rise rapidly over the years. Not long ago being stressed was a sacking offense or labelled you as a loony. Now middle management takes months off at a time. Ground floor workers are threatened with the sack for a couple of weeks sick leave where there is no other means for them to escape from the stresses of the workplace. Even the visible rewards for our activities have become rather diffuse. A car, a house, a holiday and a kitchen? Is this really the sum total of our desires? None of these things work properly and have to be constantly maintained at considerable expense. Constant noise, movement and endless distractions are added to firefighting work practices. That said, much work is actually rather boring and usually involves servicing equally unhappy human beings. The longer I live the more value I place on those who actually try to be helpful. Often with a friendly smile. They are the essential lubrication so lacking in the endlessly grasping society of today.

There is an ill-defined sense of injustice about life these days. The media terrify us with their endless reports of disasters waiting to happen. Or moronic rich people showing off. Or getting away with things which we wouldn't. The same could be said for all of us to some degree if we were honest.

We place money at the top of our list of wants. Then find that things aren't nearly as much fun once they are actually in our possession. I am now finding that I get far more kicks out of not owning something than I did from lusting after it. The grass on the other side of the fence really is greener. And I usually find that I prefer it that way.

So basically I am at least as screwed up as you lot but hopefully a little more satisfied with my lot. I now have far more things than I will ever need except for the space (and the youthful enthusiasm) to properly enjoy them. Cheer up! It can only get worse! :)

i agree with most of that. Unfortunately we do place far too much importance on possessions, money celebrity (in some cases) and status and not enough on values surrounding family life friendship and community. We have become too selfish for our own good and the 4x4 has become the symbol of our narcissism and everyday avarice. Personally I would like to see a return to buying appliances which last and which can be easily repaired, to cars which are just functional as well as reliable so that we need top only buy them maybe once or twice during our life time then we wouldnt have to work so much to replace them. I would like se a situation where everyone had a roof over their heads where rents were cheap and mortgage repayments low so millions didnt have to live under a constant cloud of unendurable debt, The pressure would be off and they wouldnt have to work so many hours. Why on earth should they anyway? Just to meet the constant demands for higher profitabilty made by greedy shareholders??Sod off I say!And thats what happens.Ciba Geigy a well known pharmaceutical company which had as its creed a patriarchal policy towards its staff granting many perks like clubhouse generous pension scheme etc. People liked working there because conditions were good.Then they sold top Norvatus and everything changed. Profit became the sole objective (as it did in banks), perks were removed sports centre sold and people started leaving
A once greaty and highly respected company made way for Mammon!:thumbsdow
 

Ed Selley

AVF Reviewer
Personally I would like to see a return to buying appliances which last and which can be easily repaired, to cars which are just functional as well as reliable so that we need top only buy them maybe once or twice during our life time then we wouldnt have to work so much to replace them.

I was going to ignore the old socialists convention but this part is at best facile and at worst wrong.

You can still have appliances that fufill these criteria but they are expensive. The reason being that the units you are peering through your rose tinted spectacles at- if they ever truly existed- cost far, far more than their descendents today. Case in point, taking into account inflation, the price of a NAD 3020 would be nearer that of a brand new M3 Master Series amp which will do rather more than its ancestor, is better built and will last as long. In addition, when it is at the end of its life, it contains nothing that is a threat to the enviroment. This is more than can be said for a fridge from the same period which would be packed full of CFC's and feature lead and cadmium in its construction.

Manufacturered goods have never been cheaper, more energy efficient and easier to recycle. than they are now. If you compare units at a like for like price (ie you look at companies such as Miele rather than Electrolux), equipment is still as long lived and easy to repair as it ever has been.

Still you have long proved that fact has no part in your relation to events around you.
 

la gran siete

Distinguished Member
I was going to ignore the old socialists convention but this part is at best facile and at worst wrong.

You can still have appliances that fufill these criteria but they are expensive. The reason being that the units you are peering through your rose tinted spectacles at- if they ever truly existed- cost far, far more than their descendents today. Case in point, taking into account inflation, the price of a NAD 3020 would be nearer that of a brand new M3 Master Series amp which will do rather more than its ancestor, is better built and will last as long. In addition, when it is at the end of its life, it contains nothing that is a threat to the enviroment. This is more than can be said for a fridge from the same period which would be packed full of CFC's and feature lead and cadmium in its construction.

Manufacturered goods have never been cheaper, more energy efficient and easier to recycle. than they are now. If you compare units at a like for like price (ie you look at companies such as Miele rather than Electrolux), equipment is still as long lived and easy to repair as it ever has been.

Still you have long proved that fact has no part in your relation to events around you.
If nothing else i am provocative:D

I am fully aware that appliances are safer (and all the other positives you mention)now that they have ever been which is obviously a good thing. its the longevity and lack of service I have an issue with. Miele are very much the exception being a relatively small company - its products all hand made., some even quite affordable.Since I was married I must of gone through about 10 15 different toasters and kettles which have lasted me on average about 2 yrs each. Utter ****! The last kettle I bought was a £5 jobbie from tesco which after 2 years still works well. Whats the point in forking out £30 + for a pile of junk that only gives 2 yrs life? I also bought an LG washing machine for £450 . It looked very solid well made with good controls. After three years use it broke down.Could I get it repaired ? Could I heck! No parts no servicing! Lg suck but I am sure are they symptomatic of much that is wrong out there.
 

Ed Selley

AVF Reviewer
Since I was married I must of gone through about 10 15 different toasters and kettles which have lasted me on average about 2 yrs each. Utter ****! The last kettle I bought was a £5 jobbie from tesco which after 2 years still works well.

Whereas I bought a Dualit toaster for £100 when I went to University. Nine years later it looks the same and works the same as it did. Likewise my kettle cost £65 from memory and still works eight years down the line. I also know in the case of the Dualit in particular, that it can be easily repaired and Dualit have the parts.

The rules of reliability and service have never changed- its only people failing to get their head around inflation that blurs the issue. You still hear wiser heads say "I can't afford to buy cheap." They are and likely always will be right.
 

colinwheeler

Active Member
As far as I am concerned the problem here is linked to the following:

  1. We do not take personal responsibility in this country for our situations. We need to stand up and take control.
  2. The culture of long work hours here is wrong....not because it is a situation where companies are getting too much or anything like that, just simply that a worker that works a reasonable amount of hours and gets the rest of the time off, generally will be able to work more efficiently. I don't think that working more than about 7 hours a day it is possible to keep productivity and efficiency up over the long term. There are exceptions to this but not many.
  3. Jobs are part of the market economy that we live in and we need to accept this. Basically a job pays what it needs to in a supply and demand world. Don't like it, then it is time to find a new job.

Other than that, hello again all:hiya:. I take it you have all had a good time and have been taking care of yourselves?
 

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