Quantcast

Iran admits shooting down airliner

not one person on his thread has said that Iran is innocent. Many have said that shooting of the aircraft was an accident, which is probably was in a time of heightened anxiety brought on by both the US and Iran.
Perhaps read again what I wrote ;) I did not suggest that anyone suggested Iran was innocent in shooting down that plane.
 

SDMDAM

Well-known Member
Perhaps read again what I wrote ;) I did not suggest that anyone suggested Iran was innocent in shooting down that plane.
Right. Well, you said "come on Iran is not innocent here". That could easily be read as suggesting some are suggesting that Iran is innocent.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Not quite. The aircraft was shot down because the Iranian air defence was on heightened alert due to anticipated US retaliation following the Iranian strikes on the US Iraqi bases the day before (which, of course, was revenge for the US missile strike).
The downing of the airliner was a tragic consequence of the sabre rattling between Iran and the US.
This is the crux of it. That rattling started long before Trump was elected, so hardly his fault, or anything to do with him. The assassination of the Iranian General is another in a long line of actions the US has taken since 1979 (and before to be fair) to ensure Iran is kept within its borders.

If anything, Trump has shown reluctance until now (to a fault IMO) in using any find of force against these hostile regimes. He tends to save his use of force for Mexican children.
 

SDMDAM

Well-known Member
It’s true to say that this issue has been bubbling and boiling over way before Trump. It is also true to say that Trump bucked the international trend of trying to engage with Iran by very quickly pulling out of a deal that many countries, including the US, had worked a long time to try and put into place.
 

Sonic67

Distinguished Member
Another happy person from Iran.


"Let me start with a greeting, a farewell or condolences, I am one of the millions of oppressed women in Iran who they have been playing with for years."

"They took me wherever they wanted. I wore whatever they said. Every sentence they ordered me to say, I repeated. Whenever they saw fit, they exploited me," she wrote, adding that credit always went to those in charge.

"I wasn't important to them. None of us mattered to them, we were tools," Alizadeh goes on to say, explaining that while the regime celebrated her medals, it criticized the sport she had chosen: "The virtue of a woman is not to stretch her legs!"

Alizadeh confirmed the rumors Saturday, saying she "didn't want to sit at the table of hypocrisy, lies, injustice and flattery" and that she did not want to be complicit with the regime's "corruption and lies."

"My troubled spirit does not fit with your dirty economic ties and tight political lobbies. I wish for nothing else than for Taekwondo, safety and for a happy and healthy life, she said adding that she was not invited to go to Europe.

She said the decision was harder than winning Olympic gold. "I remain a daughter of Iran wherever I am," she said.
BBC now running with it.

BBC News - Kimia Alizadeh: Iran's only female Olympic medallist defects

Alizadeh, 21, posted on social media that she had left Iran because she didn't want to be part of "hypocrisy, lies, injustice and flattery".

She described herself as "one of the millions of oppressed women in Iran".


At what point will others on the left realise Iran is the problem?
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
Didn’t the attack on the US embassy in Iraq take place before the killing of Soleimaini? The attack on the embassy was due to US attacks due to a US contractor being killed by Iranian militia.

If people are arguing over who started the recent escalation, you could argue it leads back to Iran...
 

SDMDAM

Well-known Member
BBC now running with it.

BBC News - Kimia Alizadeh: Iran's only female Olympic medallist defects

Alizadeh, 21, posted on social media that she had left Iran because she didn't want to be part of "hypocrisy, lies, injustice and flattery".

She described herself as "one of the millions of oppressed women in Iran".


At what point will others on the left realise Iran is the problem?
The problem is solely down to Iran then?
 

SDMDAM

Well-known Member
Didn’t the attack on the US embassy in Iraq take place before the killing of Soleimaini? The attack on the embassy was due to US attacks due to a US contractor being killed by Iranian militia.

If people are arguing over who started the recent escalation, you could argue it leads back to Iran...
Or back to Trump coming out of the agreement and wanting to reimpose sanctions that have led to a lot of suffering in Iran. Don't get me wrong, Iran is not without blame here but it takes two to tango.
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
Or back to Trump coming out of the agreement and wanting to reimpose sanctions that have led to a lot of suffering in Iran. Don't get me wrong, Iran is not without blame here but it takes two to tango.
So the solution to coming out of the agreement and sanctions is bombs and missiles, rather than a political solution?
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Or back to Trump coming out of the agreement and wanting to reimpose sanctions that have led to a lot of suffering in Iran. Don't get me wrong, Iran is not without blame here but it takes two to tango.
Iran's long-term aim is to get the West out of the Middle East, and with whatever support necessary and available (ie Russia), to become the dominant force in the Middle East. With an Islamic Fundamentalist ideology and a desire to build nuclear weapons.

This would be the absolute makings of World War 3 and should be opposed at pretty much all costs by the West / Saudi etc.
 

Har-One

Member
Iran's long-term aim is to get the West out of the Middle East, and with whatever support necessary and available (ie Russia), to become the dominant force in the Middle East. With an Islamic Fundamentalist ideology and a desire to build nuclear weapons.

This would be the absolute makings of World War 3 and should be opposed at pretty much all costs by the West / Saudi etc.
Just to make things clear. I do not support Iran or any religious extreme system. In the same way that I strongly oppose this continuous development of nuclear weapons or any weapon able to wipe out the whole planet or considerably part of it.

You mention that Iran wants to keep the West out the Middle East. Do we have a right to be in the Middle East? Whenever we’ve been in the Middle East we cause more chaos than stability. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan are clear proof of that.

Iran is not the only country with that ideology trying to become the dominant force in the region. Saudi Arabia is arguably more extreme and more influential. Turkey has been leaning very much towards an Islamic state and also has its desire of being quite influential in the region.

Needless to say, that most of these powers emerge by our support. We sell them weapons because they can provide some sort of help in particular circumstances and then we go to do regime change when they are no longer convenient.

It might be a good idea for the whole West to keep out the Middle East and try to agree to a full stop on nuclear weapons from all sides. Instead, Trump has pulled from this sort of agreements and Russia is developing even faster supersonic missiles. Like they have said before, an eye for an eye and the worlds goes blind.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Just to make things clear. I do not support Iran or any religious extreme system. In the same way that I strongly oppose this continuous development of nuclear weapons or any weapon able to wipe out the whole planet or considerably part of it.

You mention that Iran wants to keep the West out the Middle East. Do we have a right to be in the Middle East? Whenever we’ve been in the Middle East we cause more chaos than stability. Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan are clear proof of that.

Iran is not the only country with that ideology trying to become the dominant force in the region. Saudi Arabia is arguably more extreme and more influential. Turkey has been leaning very much towards an Islamic state and also has its desire of being quite influential in the region.

Needless to say, that most of these powers emerge by our support. We sell them weapons because they can provide some sort of help in particular circumstances and then we go to do regime change when they are no longer convenient.

It might be a good idea for the whole West to keep out the Middle East and try to agree to a full stop on nuclear weapons from all sides. Instead, Trump has pulled from this sort of agreements and Russia is developing even faster supersonic missiles. Like they have said before, an eye for an eye and the worlds goes blind.
Without a doubt, that would lead to war and several 100,000s, if not millions dead.

If the West leaves, Russia moves in. Bye-bye life as we know it. Absolute chaos across the Western World.
 

Har-One

Member
Without a doubt, that would lead to war and several 100,000s, if not millions dead.

If the West leaves, Russia moves in. Bye-bye life as we know it. Absolute chaos across the Western World.
Russia (Soviet Union) was in the whole of Eastern Europe and the world did not end. Eastern Europe is a lot closer than the Middle East. In any case, this is a topic for another thread.

It is terribly awful what has happened and if we allow diplomats to run the show as oppose to brain-dead zombies trying to prove who has the biggest rocket. We might have found a political solution and these innocent lives might not have been lost.
 

rustybin

Distinguished Member
Russia (Soviet Union) was in the whole of Eastern Europe and the world did not end. Eastern Europe is a lot closer than the Middle East. In any case, this is a topic for another thread.
No, but millions of Eastern European lives were lost.

Agreed on the second part. The problem in any conflict, or in the build up to a conflict, is when one country won't accept the status-quo. Whether it be Germany in 1914/1939, or Argentina in 1982, or Iran now.

Either you accept the world as it is, or you try to change it by diplomatic, military means.

When you consider what Iran's view of the future is, it's of absolutely no surprise that diplomatic efforts are going to fail. A strong Iran leading over a united, Islamic Fundamentalist Middle East armed with nuclear weapons is a thing of nightmares.

It's similar to the Israel question. When one side's view is that another country should not exist, it doesn't leave much room for diplomatic negotiation.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Not quite. The aircraft was shot down because the Iranian air defence was on heightened alert due to anticipated US retaliation following the Iranian strikes on the US Iraqi bases the day before (which, of course, was revenge for the US missile strike).
The downing of the airliner was a tragic consequence of the sabre rattling between Iran and the US.
come on, this is the Middle East we are talking about not Chipping Norton - heightened alerts happen every week.

There has been constant tension in the region for as long as I can remember and Iran has been waging a proxy war in Yeman since 2015 and has been active in Iraq in creating conflict since we invaded in 2003. The tension obviously wasnt that high as Iran hadnt even closed their airspace to civilian traffic.
 
Last edited:

mooperman

Distinguished Member
come on, this is the Middle East we are talking about not Chipping Norton - heightened alerts happen every week.

There has been constant tension in the region for as long as I can remember and Iran has been waging a proxy war in Yeman since 2015 and has been active in Iraq in creating conflict since we invaded in 2003.
The tension obviously wasnt that high as Iran hadnt even closed their airspace to civilian traffic.
that doesnt change the fact that some utter dolt was probably sat with his finger on the button sweating his backside off.. likely told by a superior that anyone who doesnt shoot down enemy aircraft will be shot at his desk or whatever....

Not to mention that a potential conflict with the USA would change things dramatically from a proxy war in the Yemen.

Ive no doubt some (probably innocent) Iranian guy will be thrown to the wolves for this so they can say justice was done.
 

Pacifico

Distinguished Member
Ive no doubt some (probably innocent) Iranian guy will be thrown to the wolves for this so they can say justice was done.
Well someone needs to be held accountable - if you are responsible for deciding when a surface to air missile battery is fired then you should be making damn sure what you are firing at.

I think the larger problem, which the protests in Tehran are alluding to, is not that the plane was accidentally shot down but that the Regime tried to cover it up.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
Well someone needs to be held accountable - if you are responsible for deciding when a surface to air missile battery is fired then you should be making damn sure what you are firing at.

I think the larger problem, which the protests in Tehran are alluding to, is not that the plane was accidentally shot down but that the Regime tried to cover it up.
agreed.... but given that Iran doesnt have the best human rights record i highly doubt the person responsible will be the person punished.
 

hippo99

Distinguished Member
agreed.... but given that Iran doesnt have the best human rights record i highly doubt the person responsible will be the person punished.
If the person responsible is so useless, why would they want to protect them/keep them around?
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
If the person responsible is so useless, why would they want to protect them/keep them around?
Have you ever spent any time in the middle east? The whole place revolves on who you know.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
If they're that well connected, I doubt they would be getting their hands dirty on the front line.
you'd be surprised - in my (limited) experience Daddy's boy wants an important job so Daddys boy gets one.
 

mooperman

Distinguished Member
Yes a higher ranking job, not just a 'grunt'.
maybe yes maybe no... if he's ordering that grunt to fire or be put to death or just decides to out and out push the go button himself... either way - we'll never really know i reckon.
 

Similar threads

Trending threads

Latest News

Philips announces Fidelio X3 headphone
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Philips announces 805 and 855 OLED and new LCD TVs for May 2020
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Disney+ UK launch now 24th March
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
LG Filmmaker Mode will use autosensing
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Hisense U8Q and U7Q QLED TVs coming to UK in 2020
  • By Andy Bassett
  • Published
Top Bottom