Interesting byelection in Manchester

Discussion in 'Politics & The Economy' started by tapzilla2k, Feb 7, 2014.

  1. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    It appears UKIP have failed to drain Labour's support and Farage is dampening expectations.
    Even without the poll bump from the swelling of feeling for the deceased MP, Labour would still have a comfortable lead if the polls are accurate on polling day.
     
  2. karkus30

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    There has been some strategic postal vote/door stepping going on. None of it illegal of course, but Labour have the whip hand advantage because it was their MP that is being replaced and are using every trick in the book to ensure they win. Of course UKIP would do the same.
     
  3. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Besides has anyone ever been to that area? I've been at least once if not twice every month for the past two years. A labour win doesn't surprise me at all. It's a selfish, but understandable vote. Oh man don't remind me, the gates around my clients car park, the goings on recorded on the CCTV, it never sleeps. And I've done quite a few nights. I don't get how people to it to themselves.
     
  4. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Its where shameless is filmed. Europe's biggest housing estate.
     
  5. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    I didn't know that, but can understand it....When I was still smoking and went outside at night, the constables guarding the facilities, questioned my desires, and guided me to areas covered by the cameras...Ofcourse they'd vote for free money...
     
  6. SNIPIT

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    All past tense now, I corrected that for you, and your innuendo is?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  7. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Man that's ugly isn't it ? That its just an enormous group of free loaders and Labour are keen to win votes by sheer bribery. How can any party that acts like that ever be trusted. They haven't just lost their moral compass, they have smashed it to pieces deliberately.
     
  8. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Wake up. Those that vote Labour only do so because of the promise they will get free stuff. The patter goes "its not your fault, its all those rich people. How can you compete with them. We can help you. We will even up those odds" and the voters buy it.
     
  9. Bl4ckGryph0n

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    Years of careful planning and developing that dependency...Just like drug dealers/pushers imo...Its disgusting and without a single thread of the best intentions to elevate people out of that horrible situation. Just keep them down and dependent. Yet somehow, they are seen as caring and God knows what kind of words are being used as emotional blackmail against it. Personally I think it is abuse when people are kept down like that.
     
  10. SNIPIT

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    I dont think that the majority of Wythenshawe & Sale East can be easily be conned into thinking they are/ ever/seen as Middle Class, its no surprise the debate will be on second place.

    Second Place for Wythenshawe is where the meat is for the UK as a whole, the ones who were conned into the illusion they were Middle Class, were does that vote go? Because they are the ones who will be getting nasty because they are frightened and it new experience for them and their recourse and standing is diminishing every day. Interesting days.
     
  11. sidicks

    sidicks
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    Why are some people so obsessed by 'class' and so keen to pigeonhole people into groups?
    :(
     
  12. karkus30

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    Did you mean middle class or that they were richer than they actually were because of easy money, asset bubbles and the jobs that were spawned as a result of them ?
     
  13. SNIPIT

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    I'm not I have gone on record here many times I dont like term, however its a bit hard to quantify sometimes without clarifications and to balance its why I used "Illusion", people judge each other on what can be seen and group themselves accordingly, it a basic human trait
     
  14. SNIPIT

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    What choice do people have, its consequence of removing true Social security and making them free as long as you/we/they are financialized.
     
  15. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    It's called Class warfare, it's never gone away. Just bought to the fore since the global Economic crash as it's highlighted a few uncomfortable things across the spectrum of UK society. It's done similar things in other countries as well. Greece springs to mind.

    UKIP appears to have only just paid attention to the seat, so they can't whine about postal ballots, if you want those you have to be on the ground campaigning over the course of a parliament all the way upto the General Election. Labour's been on the ground campaigning all over the place, even in seats it's got no chance in hell of winning. If they keep their current seats and grab the target seats then they'll probably end up as the biggest party, but with no overall majority. But I doubt it's going to play out like that at this stage. If Labour were to win a majority it would mean they'd have negated the UKIP threat instead splitting the Tory vote and regained votes lost to the Liberal Democrats. But that's a tall order and one which I can't see happening this time around.

    I prefer to see them as those left behind by Thatcher, Major and Blair, bribed by Politicians to take whatever they are given and to stay as they are. It's the failure of all political parties to sort out, instead they get vilified (some rightly so), though denying those with the drive to escape from the poverty trap and make something of themselves. Never fall into the trap of labeling people, as you it splits social cohesion, what effects the bottom effects every level of society. Which you may scoff at, but it's vital to keep the country as a cohesive unit working together towards a common goal. We've lost sight of that in the last 30 years, in trying to keep the golden goose that is the City of London laying Golden Eggs.

    All Parties use bribes to win votes. Be it a tax cut for top earners or tax breaks for certain things.
    I'd be very wary of any giveaways from any of the political parties at this stage.
     
  16. karkus30

    karkus30
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    What choice does any addict have ? Carry on taking it or reject it. Until they do reject it then there can be no change.

    Labour-more than any other party-are about dependency and a victims culture. Its like policeman. Without criminals they are unemployed. Labour without victims have no reason to exist.
     
  17. karkus30

    karkus30
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    Yes on UKIP but just pointing out why it might not be quite a level playing field and therefore not necessarily a true reflection of what might happen at election time. I have no love for UKIP either.

    Its not 'drive' to escape the poverty trap as you call it. I'm labelling free loaders accurately. If you take money you are a thief. It is this theft that has created the trap in the first place.

    Social cohesion and common goals are for dreamers. Communist China and Russia had common goals. They forced them on the people with rifle butts, bullets and torture.

    Individuals are doing the best for themselves and their families with the resources they have available. Its better to tell people what they need to hear than pussy foot around with soft touch ideas. These people are kept placated by a dribble of money. They should reject it and start mobbing Westminster and the Bank of England. There is nothing to lose. Stop voting.
     
  18. SNIPIT

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    ^^^Next time you are in Mid Wales Ill buy you a drink ^^^:thumbsup::beer:



    I dont think you understand addiction at all and you imply choice as full understanding of everything known to man or woman by every person, which quite frankly is silly and diversionary as usual.:thumbsdow
     
  19. tapzilla2k

    tapzilla2k
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    What you don't appear to understand is that seats are won or lost on many factors. Usually on local issues mixed with national issues. The Marginal seats are the ones where this will play out and could leave things open for either Labour or the Liberal Democrats to pick up seats where the Tories majority is fragile. UKIP splits the Tory vote, it leaves it open for others to pounce if they get the tone of the campaign right and win those who are not interested in the Tories or UKIP's squabbles.

    No you are labelling people according to your own bias. You want freeloading ? Look at those who evade tax or private sector companies that fail to achieve what they promise to do. Do they lose contracts ? No they get rewarded for failure. The drive to escape poverty is very much a human instinct. It's why as a species we migrate to find new resources.

    Common goal - Reach the Moon before the decade is out. Set out by President Kennedy, achieved in 1969. Technological advances benefited the US Economy in the decades that followed. Also a side benefit that it helped the US win the cold war on a propaganda and technological front. When you don't like an idea, you merely look at the negatives and go "Look it's a total failure". The Soviet Union only had one goal and that was of Stalin to turn the USSR into a super power off the back of it's own people. He did not even bother to save his own son from death.

    The moment you stop voting is the moment you let them win. I always say to friends "Vote, even if it's for the green party". Addiction is a disease and should be treated as such, you want to reduce crime ? Sending people to prison with drug addictions does not work. What you have to do is help those who want to be helped to beat their addictions, thus reducing crime in the process. Not everyone can be helped, but it's inhumane to condemn them all. Pussy footing around is sending people to prison and not dealing with the causes, because it will cost a lot of money.

    I very much doubt you'd like what would happen if no one voted, the Constitutional Crisis it would cause would mean the Queen would have to take a direct hand in affairs of the state until a new Election could be held. She delegates her power to the Leader of the Party who can command the Confidence of the House. If there is no House she has no one to delegate her powers to.
     
  20. karkus30

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    You don't need full understanding to make a choice. Its easy to understand that voting to take money from someone is coercion. This stuff was laid out in the Bible for precisely the reasons we are now in such a bloody mess. It is your right to look after yourself and your family without relying on others. If that cannot be achieved then you need to understand what it is that is preventing it happening. You can't see the bars of the cage if you continue to take the food offered.

    Its a leap of faith, a clarity. It doesn't mean that you stop taking the welfare, but start to ask why you need it and who put you in that position? Start to question and become aware that it is addict that has created their own victim hood.

    Rulers only rule because the people abdicate their own rights and empower the rulers. By taking welfare you show allegiance and deference to the rulers. It is the scraps thrown to the dogs that stops the dogs from biting their masters or hunting for themselves. This is what is being denied by those that take the scraps. Rise up. Stop cowering. Men have rights. Take them back. The scraps aren't worth it. Better to die poor and free.
     
  21. karkus30

    karkus30
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    I understand that perfectly. Im saying that we shouldn't judge UKIPs performance in one by election where Labour not only have a strong lead but the whip hand in leading the campaign.


    Freeloading is freeloading. A thief is a thief. I make no such distinction. No one has a right to others productive effort. I have constantly posted about cronyism and bank bailouts. Tax evaders are no different, but I think you will find that the majority of evaders are small companies dealing cash in hand, or those buying hooky goods. Tax avoidance is of course, a totally legal activity in the same way as looking for a bargain is.


    I had no common goal to reach the moon. How can 'I' have a common goal. Its a ludicrous premise. I have my goal, you have yours. Keep it like that and we will get on great ;-)


    Who is 'them' but you. You vote for your own incarceration. You vote to maintain the system that enslaves you. When the voting paper contains a box that gives a no vote option I will start voting.

    You miss the point on addiction. However as you bring up drug addiction. I say legalise all drugs, prostitution, gambling.

    I would very much like it :) at least we wouldn't have the illusion of choice. The curtain is drawn back.
     
  22. SNIPIT

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    Yep lets get back to Widows Mite although it pains me to use religious terminology as I do Religion as much as I do Libertarian, as it appears they attract similar ilk, in case there is any doubt, I do neither.
     
  23. sidicks

    sidicks
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    There's nothing like a stupid generalisation....
     
  24. tapzilla2k

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    I've been looking at previous byelections and various polling including those from Ashcroft. It paint's an interesting picture.



    Every lost bit of tax income into the Treasury's coffers costs us in terms of borrowing.


    Again you miss the point entirely, the US had a common goal - Destroy the USSR and communism. The Moon landing was part of that and was a tribute to Kennedy in a way.


    The political classes and the upper levels of society win. Back to feudalism if they had their way.
    Democracy is weakened when apathy takes over and people do not engage in politics. Thus it allows the chancers and idiots like Cameron to have a go at running things and screwing it up.

    That'll never fly with the political parties unless the US changes it mind on it's war on drugs.


    The curtain is already drawn back, if you spend enough time following politics you know where to look at the connections between politicians and vested interests. It's what Ed Miliband has been raging about in a geeky way. Get a radical Politician with similar conviction as Thatcher and watch the establishment panic if the radical zeal catches on with the public at large. Farage ain't it.
     
  25. karkus30

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    What a laugh. Of course they attract a similar ilk and both are equally corrupted by man. It is the corruption that is the worship of false idols. 'Know thyself' 'only to thyself be true' 'ignorance isn't innocence'.

    I really don't know why you keep bringing up widows mite. It simply means that God does not judge based on money or worth. The poor of spirit will find it easier than the rich. That's why the Camel finds it easier to get through the eye of the needle than the rich man. Rich being a term associated with the belief in deserving something and nothing to do with Gold and Jewels.
     
  26. SNIPIT

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    I'm keen to see Liberal Democrats report into their "Alternative Strategy", muted for later this year. I see a shift over the next decade or two, I believe i will certainly see all drugs decriminalized, which as far as I'm concerned is good.
     
  27. SNIPIT

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    There we are, agreement on Religion and Libertarianism, corruptible; as you never really answer the corruption apart from some loose let the markets decide, I therefore see it needing positive interventions by a independent democratic state, Thankyou for the clarification.

    Thats entirely your interpretation...

    Back to Manchester By Election and UkiP turning up late, very likely making sure they have no more Former Conservative Members on their books who partake in a spot of Kidnapping, told you Pakistan was the Place to go for a bit of Free state entrepreneurial thinking, just dont do it to wealthy people. Perhaps this is what they mean when they say they are the Working Class Party in their flyer.

    Ukip spokesman Mujeeb ur Rehman Bhutto was leader of Pakistani kidnapping gang | Mail Online
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
  28. karkus30

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    And?


    There is no lost revenue from tax avoidance, only from tax evaders. If you have ever paid cash in hand then you are an accomplice to tax evasion. A lot of tax evasion is in small shops, market stalls etc


    How can a country have any goal at all ? Its a lump of land. An agreed goal of a few was to ensure that they didn't end up with a revolution. It was protection for the wealthy. Now they have fascism. Same difference.


    Take the blinkers off. You are already a serf. You have no rights, only privileges that can be removed by the ruler at any time. Cameron isn't running anything. The politicians are just the salesmen. They are lackeys. They are as much a vested interest. They happen to get bigger scraps and more petting than others that's all.


    Already starting to happen in states like Montana. Its another load of money grabbing bastards who's entire business revolves around victimless crime. Just as it was during prohibition.


    The politicians ARE vested interests, so is anyone busy looting the producers. The Government function is to bless one group over another and use the violent force of the state to achieve it. That's why you should refuse it when you can, find alternatives if possible, make others aware if you can.
     
  29. karkus30

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    If every one is corruptible then who can be trusted not to be corruptible ? No democratic state will offer that. By its very nature its a den of vipers and thieves. That's why I said you are worshipping false idols. Only a god is incorruptible. Therefore you should not care about what 'others' do and work on yourself.

    UKIP got rid of him. Old news. He was a conservative and then he went back to the conservatives. I wonder how many Labour politicians ended up in prison ? Or how many more have skeletons in the closet. Unlike you I have no axe to grind. You will always end up throwing stones in glass houses.
     
  30. SNIPIT

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    You may think so, I could not possibly comment.


    As I vote and I plan to vote, I believe I'm entitled to throw very hard stones to whatever glass house i may be standing in and as I have never voted Labour in any election and there has been a fair few Ill be missing the flying glass, if its all the same to you.
     

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