Interconnects

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by siluro, Jul 1, 2002.

  1. siluro

    siluro
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    hi people

    Well i decided its time to ditch my shoe lace interconnects in favour of somthing a bit better, my biggest problem is to buy them pre made is well out my price range so im left with the option of going DIY siluro style...lol. Ive been to my local maplin to see what i can find and came up with these too choices

    cable A

    or

    cable B

    both are made by a company called shark, or if any one has any other sugestions please let me know, I know this isnt exactly a audiophile choice but its gonna have to do. What im actually connecting up is a technics su-a707, sh-ge70, sj-md150 and a. sl-pg5

    so please let me know what you think
    cheers
    lee

    just been on a little search and does any one know about van damme cables, quality ect?
     
  2. CodeThief

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    Just out of interest,

    Have you looked at www.tnt-audio.com they have some plans for DIY interconnects. I'm gonna build a pair myself if I can figure out where to get this wire-wrap from!!!

    Dave

    PS, it uses low loss satellite cable.
     
  3. siluro

    siluro
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    hi dave

    i did see that the other day, but i couldnt quite under stand it:D , you supposed to be able to get the wire wrap stuff from maplin but i looked and didnt see it any where!, i was checking out the van damme stuff and aparantly it the same stuff used in abbey road studios and some other big places, so im seriously considering it, very cheap too, let me know how you get on with the other inter connects cos they do sound to be real good

    cheers
    lee
     
  4. MikeK

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    Howmuch do you want to spend, and how many cables/what lengths do you need.

    CPC do Puresonic interconnects very cheap (one which retails for £85 in hifi shops is only about £20).

    You can get a 5050A cable (5star rating if that's important yo you), say a 5m pair, and cut it up. Add some good quality phono plugs, and you can be home and dry for less than £20-£30 depending on how many sets of leads you need (CPC only do free shipping for orders over £30 though)

    Remember, with cables, the shorter the better.
    Despite some of the outrageous claims made by some manufacturers, a cable is electrically passive - it can do absolutely nothing at all to improve the signal it's passing, it's simply the degree to which it can degrade it (better cables degrade it less). Most hifi gear, especially stacked, or in a rack, can get away with cables as short as 12".

    Short cheaper cables can outperform long expensive ones - it's a fact of physics and transmission theory which no amount of fancy marketing hype can get round, however hard they might try.
    While a cables characteristics are determined by it's design, construction and materials, it's ultimate performance in the real world is governed just as much by it's length.
     
  5. stranger

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    if it's "woven" to cancel out RFI-the longer the better.
     
  6. siluro

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    thanks guys, every day i keep learning more and more from you lot. basicly ive changed my set-up a little and got rid of the eq, so all i need is 2 x 50cm lengths, well they dont need to be that long really but all the stuff i looked comes by the metre so that seems the best bet. at the min ive been really considering the van damme un-balanced patch cable and making seperate leads for left and right from VDC and also their pro phono plugs which should come to under 30 notes, you got any opions on this one cos its nice to here from people who know what their on about rather than some git salesman at maplin

    cheers guys
     
  7. stranger

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    a really good pair of interconects are russ andrews pbj-£35.00 half metre pair delivered (30 day money back if not happy) freephone 0800 373467 qote codeOD14 for 10% off this before 17 july.
     
  8. MikeK

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    Assuming, that is, that you buy into the theory that RFI is actually the problem the woven cable makers claim it is, and also assuming that you accept that it's possible to create a perfect RFI filter by weaving the cables together, which then only acts on RFI frequencies and has no effect whatsoever on any other frequency band, and also assuming that the longer cable will bring with it no other side effects whatsoever (ie, the conductors are perfect conductors, and the wrapper is a perfect insulator), then yes, the longer the better! :) :D :p

    (especially for the manufacturer who sells it by the metre - but maybe I'm just an old cynic :) )
     
  9. stranger

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    so was I - a big cynic until I did some a/b comparisons (yes blind and with more than one person):)
     
  10. Nic Rhodes

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    MikeK, a touch too cynical? ;)

    RFI rejection has to welcomed whether it by cable or proper front end engineering. The poor woven cable manufacturers have provided a decent RFI solution (though not perfect) for a market place that should have never needed it if equipment was designed correctly in the first place. The longer the better, it is the laws of physics that dictate this....hardly their fault if equipment manufacturers don't design their equipment properly.

    Re cable lengths, if the cable is correctly designed re R, C and L and the output device has suitable output impedence VERY long lengths should make no difference. The lengths of 0.5m to 3m that most people deal with are just irrelevant when proper designed kit can easily do 100m. Plugs and soldering make far more 'difficulties' than additional cable, surely you would agree?
     
  11. MikeK

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    Re cable lengths, if the cable is correctly designed re R, C and L and the output device has suitable output impedence VERY long lengths should make no difference. The lengths of 0.5m to 3m that most people deal with are just irrelevant when proper designed kit can easily do 100m. Plugs and soldering make far more 'difficulties' than additional cable, surely you would agree?


    As I stated earlier, I'm not a big believer (any more) about some of the sound quality claims attributed to this or that cable.
    There is some substance to it all, but IMO cable manufacturers have seized on this and blown it out of all proportion - and with good reason too, the profit margin on these cables is enormous.

    I do agree that in the real world, it's highly unlikely that the difference between a 0.5m cable and 1m version of the same cable would reveal any audible differences at all.

    Not sure what you mean by plugs and soldering causing more difficulties - the plugs are a fact of life, nothing we can do about that. Use decent quality metal ones and you'll not go far wrong IMO - GP or tinned, I seriously doubt it makes any difference. As for soldering, yes, I suppose that's a possibility - a good mechanical joint between the plugs and the cable would be desirable over a connection which joined the cable and plug together through the solder (ie, so the solder itself forms part of the connection) - but whether anybody can actually hear this as an audible side effect, is highly questionable IMO.


    However, I have to disagree about 100m of cable making no difference. The effects of the LRC on the avarage audio cable at 1m length may be inaudible, but multiply them 100 times, and they might not be (in fact they most probably won't be).
    To see the effects a long cable can have on the signal it's passing, try replacing your 1m digital coax cable with a 100m one, and see if it still works (a more extreme example than analaogue audio due to the higher signal frequency, fair enough, but it will show that cable length can be a factor)

    My opinion is this.
    I do believe that very long cables can certainly affect the sound.

    Over the short distances (0.5-1m) we typically use phono cables in hifi/AV, I don't believe that a 0.5m difference in length will make any audible difference.

    Once you get beyond the very thin, high attenuation cheapo stuff, and into proper 50ohm coax, then over 1m, I'm very skeptical that there are any real audible differences between similarly constructed cables using similar materials
    Get a bit longer, and there might be, but within reason (on length), they'd be very slight.
    One question people never seem to ask is this
    "Why are the cheap interconnects you get free in the box not very good". Poorly screened, poor quality materials used, high attenuation etc etc. I wouldn't argue that you can improve on them fairly easily, but a 1m set of those may still be better than a 10m set which uses a better quality cable (and plug)


    My point about cable length is that for people who believe that the cable itself can makes a big difference, then surely they must accept that it's length is probably the most important factor - the effects of capacitance for instance are cumulative - 50pF/m means a 0.5m cable will have a 25pF capacitance (between screen and core), but a 10m version of the same cable will have a capacitance of 500pF - neither is a particularly large value, but if you accept that even small amounts can affect the sound, then surely large amounts affect it more. Similar story with the inductance and resistance (although the pure resistance component won't affect the sound, merely attenuate it slightly)

    If you take a 1m piece of 50ohm coax, and compare it to another piece of similarly sized and constructed coax of a different make, then it's charactristics will be similar. If you use either piece as an audio lead, you won't be able to hear any difference between the two. However, if one is in a fancy package, with a smart looking coloured jacket, with shinier phono plugs etc, and the hifi magazine reviewer said it's great, then obviously this will affect (ie improve) the quality of any audio signal passed through it, because the makers say so, the reviewer says so, and it costs more than the other, so it MUST be better. :p
     
  12. stranger

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    when trying different cables i rely on nothing but my ears-the only important things as far as I am concerned. if one sounds better than another (better not just different) then it is better-for me. on your own views of multiplying differences then if weaving cable helps it reject rfi it can only be good and the longer (within reason) the better.
     
  13. MikeK

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    As I said, that's if you accept the theory that RFI induced onto shielded coax type audio interconnect cables is a particular problem in the first place. If that's the case, then all coax type cables should be clearly distinguishable from woven type cables by their inferior sound - Van den Hul go home!

    As for speaker cables, which are unshielded, perhaps they do pickup RFI. But so will the speaker's internal wiring and drive unit voice coils etc. Is this type of RFI not a problem?
    On the subject of speaker cable - given that the the bass/mid signals will be passing through at least one inductor and the treble through at least one capacitor, perhaps a resistor too, and then through a length of wire before they get to their respective drive units, are these components made from esoteric materials?
    Likewise, the voice coils themselves - what are they made from?
    It certainly isn't silver plated this, or woven RFI reducing that.
    How about the cable used internally - is that woven? silver plated? blah blah? Well, it might be on some high end designs, but I can guarantee that in the average budget speaker it won't be - plain old enamelled copper wire for the inductors, probably a Aluminium Oxide bipolar electrolytic or, if you are lucky, a polypropylene unit, for the capacitors, plain wire wound ceramic resistors (without any fancy leads), and plain copper electrical hook-up wire - nothing fancy!

    I've no problem with how other people spend their money - if they want to spend it on expensive cables, and they believe it gives them better sound, then fine.
    I don't buy into it all that much any more - IMO, it's mostly clever marketing and psychology.
    The problem is that, yes, there is some substance to claims about cables etc, but it's effect is nothing like the level some cable makers claim it is.
    My advice to anyone who owns a budget to average AV system, who can't or doesn't want to do any blind listening tests for themselves (which is always the best way) is to get rid of the 13 strand bell wire for your speakers, and perhaps the freebie interconnects with their crappy placky plugs and razor thin cables, and then don't worry too much about it any more.
    In most cases, rather than spend £100 on cable for a pair of £100 speakers, one would be much better off on average spending £20 on the cable for a pair of £180 speakers.
    Likewise, spending a large amount of money on an interconnect for a budget CD player won't make it a better player - better to have spent the money on a better player in the first place, or even on some discs to actually listen to on it - now there's a novel idea!! :)
     
  14. stranger

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    as I said I just use my ears and you don't have to spend a lot (as you seem to be infering) toreach an improvement that is cost effective:p
     
  15. MikeK

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    Haha!!! :p

    A cursory glance through a Russ Andrews catalogue may well convince people otherwise :)


    Let's see, a few sets of oak cone feet at £13 a set (essentially a couple of inches of oak dowelling), a couple of power cords at £25 a throw, a couple of sets of phono leads at £35 (for the cheapest, but £500 isn't too much for Russ), a digital coax, a SCART cable (from £110 - eek), and a set of speaker cables (take your pick, but the cheapest is £38).
    Add a can of contact cleaner - oops I meant "enhancer" at £14 a can, and some special CD "treatments" :) .
    There's a few hundred quid for starters.

    And don't forget Russ' rule
    "Spend 10% of your budget on the hardware and 90% getting the best out of it!" - on products from his catalogue, no doubt.

    So, if I was thinking of spending say 5 grand on a system, then I should be looking at spending £500 on the hardware, and the rest on Russ's stuff, and then my £500 CD, amp and speakers will outperform an ACR3/AC3R pre-power combo and Kef Reference speakers, using lowly and crappy QED speaker cable and cheap interconnects. Well he says it will, so it must be true.

    Maybe in your version of reality Russ, but not in mine :)
     
  16. stranger

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    who are you trying to convince and about what?:(
     
  17. MikeK

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    Not trying to convince anyone about anything - merely offering an alternative opinion - surely the basis of healthy debate?

    Hard to resist a mickey take of RA though! :)
     
  18. stranger

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    a lot of it yes, but i've found some of his less expensive stuff a bargain-he's always willing to give free unbiased advise as well, at shows and even on his freephone number:)
     
  19. Nic Rhodes

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    MikeK

    Interesting stuff. Nice to have you posting.

    I agree totally. I have repeatedly said this for years. Good honest cables do all you need.

    My experience is different. Plugs and soldering does make a big difference, from bitter experience unfortunately. Good info on Tag site on this. Few people IMHO can terminate cables correctly. If you 'researching' cable connections for a new cable 'product' for the market, who in their right mind would use lead solder over a crimp connection? RCA plugs, perhaps the worst designed connector on the planet, well second worse (Scart!). Perhaps Naim were right after all!


    Whist I don't disagree with what you have said I think it must be put into context. Yes R is additive. All it will do is attenuate the signal which a volume control will compensate for anyway. If I was being really mischievous I would mention that for many amps with low overload margins on inputs (more than you think) this might be advantageous!

    C is additive as well. This will only effect the treble roll off of the cable. This again will only become an issue if this falls into the audible band. Properly designed cable / amp this should not be a problem even for very long lengths. It might be an issue with a poorly designed amp with no 'driver' stage but not good kit. I am not advocating 100m but just used it as an extreme example. What people really want to do, if the kit is properly designed in the first place (not as common as it should be unfortunately) is to use long interconnects and site amps next to speakers with short LS leads (shielding issues etc). Unfortunately most people do it the other way around and therefore suffer the 'degredation' in performance.
     
  20. Nic Rhodes

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    RA may be an easy target but:

    He has for the last 15+ years being saying the same thing. Now every one else wants a piece of the action simply because he WAS right

    He stocks Kimber cable that probably has more devotees that any cable manufacturer world-wide. He has done this cable for donkeys years. In fact, Kimber cables are one of the few cables that die hard AES members will buy into re making a difference. RFI and all that

    Kimber cables solution was the best solution to the problem. The fact they did it in 1979 meant they did before anyone else and they did it better. 23 years down the line interest in these products has never been higher. You only have to look at RA returns rate to realise that customers are very satisfied.

    We may not like the silver mains cables etc but RA has some stunning products. His PJB interconnect and basic speaker cables are stunning performers and are cheap. They just do all the basics right. He mains cable continue to get rave reviews and even the basic yellow makes a big difference to some kit. None of this stuff is expensive, RA make it to the highest standard I have seen outside Tag, with the best materials.

    They give out a large amount of good advice and help freely. This often does not lead to sales of their equipment. They are honest in their ‘opinions’, often based in serious experience. [I.e. the cheap looking, relatively skinny Kimber ultra plate phonos sound better that the heavy metal, lovely looking, heavy metal engineering WBT phonos. RA can / will supply either for customers but recommend the cheaper ultraplate].

    I don’t want to sound like an advert for RA, but these easy ‘swipes’ at RA are rarely justified and when ‘doubter’ try the kit, they are more often than not completely won over. Those of us who have tried many of these products realised there are differences as you go up the range, just as indicated by RA. Okay the law of diminishing returns applies but this is what RA has always said himself. He has always called it straight, probably the reason he is a ‘controversial’ figure in the industry.

    More general stuff as many people perhaps don’t understand this as well as you do MikeK, just for info:

    If the output impedance of a good preamplifier is low, the input impedance of a good amplifier is high, and hence the current is minimal. With the current being minimal, and the frequency be limited to the audio band, we simply need a well screened analogue interconnect. It is simple physics. Que the ‘tweako’ cable brigade.

    The situation is different with a power amplifier to loudspeaker connection. Here we have a small output impedance of the amplifier and a variable complex load of a loudspeaker. The current is high and most amplifiers use feedback to improve their output quality. This requires a cable of low resistance, low capacitance and surely low inductance. This makes cable cooper hungry and (almost) impossible to screen. The lack of screen might affect the feedback circuitry.

    The higher capacitance of low inductance cables can make ‘tweako’ amps oscillate (sorry Naim users), but not quality gear such as my Tag or Brystona. But let us not forget noise, either airborne or induced. Speaker cables are more susceptible as low impedance trails than interconnects, so they are intrinsically more susceptible to picking up RF, and inducing EM noise where they run near audio lines. They are not generally shielded, nor in long runs have the noise cancelling of a differential (balanced) line. Even an XLR is less susceptible to RF pickup than typical spade lug. And, depending on the RF atmosphere near your gear, the length of speaker cable sometimes turns out to be a near perfect aerial for the transmitted frequency.

    Based on the output impedance of my TAG AV32R, I can easily run 30m interconnects and not hear or measure any effect. I haven’t tested further but the calcs. indicate 100m might be possible.

    For quality cables (low inductance) Kimber is a great example, with VERY long lengths (if you can afford them) the differences would be tiny, certainly less than 1db which isn’t audible on test tones, let alone music. For ‘Siltechs’ etc, it gets really interesting with many other brands in between If your speakers have a weird resistance, and dip low, it gets worse again.

    With a pre-amps, it takes a really lousy cable to foul up things - with anything under 100 ohms output impedance will cause NO problems. My Tag is 50 and with a load of at least ten times that (which most amps easily exceed), you do not see any deterioration of the t-function for runs up to 30m or more, and often up to 100m for these ‘well designed amps’. I am sure there are better examples than my Tag AV32r processor, particularly in the stereo pre amp fold, but it what I have at home.

    If you hear differences look to plugs and soldering faults / poor manufacture / poor screening not the cable…..
     
  21. stranger

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    good posts from MikeK and nic, this is what we need more of on the forum-easy to understand sensible posts that don't leave more questions than answers. nic, glad I use yellos pbjs, and vs speaker cable-will you forgive me the excellent bit of sony gear I have left:devil:
     
  22. MikeK

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    I don't particularly have any more of a problem with RA than with any number of other hifi accessory companies.
    I even accept he may have auditory capabilities far beyond those of a normal human.
    (I have to confess to being unable to distinguish between the sound of a fuse and that of an MCB in my mains distribution unit for instance)

    Reading his booklets, I think I can spot a bit of sales and marketing when I see it though!
    It's pretty standard stuff.
    First create/reinforce the idea that there is a problem which needs fixing, then suggest a method to fix it, and finally pitch the sell that only your solution is effective. That's my opinion anyway - seems he's pretty good at it too!


    However, in the booklet "The Music and the Magic", when you read things like

    "and then went for the ‘coup de grace ’ --ReVeel®/ReleeS®.
    I treated their favourite dem disc and they fell off their seats.One said “where did that double
    bass come from -it wasn’t there before!” "

    plus various other gems (like Russ's 10% rule), it becomes difficult to lend credence to any of it.
    The whole thing reads like one big sales pitch, and not a particularly subtle one at that.


    Still, I could be wrong - maybe it's all true and my hearing is just crap. Maybe that double bass wasn't there until the CD had the magic spray treatment - if anyone feels a track could do with a bit of creative editing, just use some magic "Double Bass Spray". Hopefully an acoustic guitar version will follow :)
     
  23. stranger

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    one thing I did try and noticed an immediate improvement. short out your dvd/cd player and your amps plug fuses with apiece of copper wire (I used a piece of earth wire from some lighting cable) if you can't hear an improvement then their's definitely something wrong with your ears. copper is much less degrading than the stuff used to make fuses.:)
     
  24. MikeK

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    And if your amp has it's own internal fuse, this will make no difference?
    Besides, shorting out the fuse in the plug (which is there to protect the flex) doesn't strike me as being particularly safe.
    Why not wire it straight back to the incoming electricity board tails - that way you can bypass that awful sounding mains distribution unit altogether :). Or wire straight into the incoming supply cable, and bypass that nasty electric board fuse which protects your entire house. :)

    How will doing this affect the sound?
    Will it allow more current through?, more voltage? does it provide a clearer signal path for the incoming current? Even if that were so, then you'd have to assume that it would provide a clearer signal path for all that nasty RFI they keep talking about which pollutes our mains, so maybe it should sound worse.

    I'll bet a pound to a penny that it's all suggestion - you were expecting (hoping?, even if it's subconciously) to hear a difference, so your brain told you there was one.


    Call me a luddite, but I believe in cause and effect. If you can hear an effect, then there is a cause. I'm not doubting your word about hearing the effect, it's just the cause which I think we may disagree on - I don't believe you'll find that cause in physics, more likely in psychology. Of course, I could be wrong, but if there is a physical explanation, I'd like to read it.


    It's like when you clean and polish your car - it somehow seems to run better, quieter, quicker, smoother. Of course, in reality it doesn't, but that's the way it seems.
     
  25. juboy

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    Very interesting thread, this whole debate still intrigues me even though (as with most contentious issues) most people end the discussion in the same camp they started in.

    A couple of things I'd like to add to the stew:

    1. If somebody spends £30 on a power lead, swops it into their system and truly believes that they are now hearing a superior sound... wasn't that £30 well spent, regardless of any *actual* improvements or not?

    As with many things in life, perception is more than reality.

    2. The psychology of hearing things that supposedly 'weren't there' previously after using a tweak is simply that people listen harder and therefore (even if sceptical) notice things that not only were there before but that they actually also heard before but had overlooked (underheard?).

    3. As far as Russ Andrews claims are concerned, yes, I would suggest that they are over-exaggerated. That said, his free mailouts are not cheap to produce, do contain interesting information and are at the end of the day, sales tools.

    Would you expect a new car to be accompanied by a brochure that read 'It's OK, not bad for a middle of the road 1.6 diesel aimed at young mothers' ?

    Russ Andrews make claims. They also give you 30 days to find out for yourself if you believe those claims. If not, full money back. Whatever you think of his A/V pills and potions, it doesn't get much fairer than that.

    4. Heard about the latest problems with two DVD releases (T2: Special Edition R2 being one of them)?

    Basically some of them produce a 'cloudy' picture and even stop working at certain points. Now, this admission comes direct from the DVD manufacturers, it's not a wind up or joke, some of them simply don't play properly.

    The cure for the problem, as advised by the manufacturer themselves and which works on ALL faulty discs? Clean them, quite aggressively, with hot, soapy water.

    Now, if that can actually make a faulty disc work again, doesn't it make Russ' claims about ReVeel and ReLees seem just a little more plausible....

    To end, I think people LIKE tweaks. People LIKE to think spending an extra £30 to £200 on gadgets and gizmos to get the best out of their £2000+ systems is a worthwhile pastime.

    Personally I feel it's like everything else, you pay your money, you take your choice. Do I personally believe all of RA's claims? No, of course not (and certainly not to the degree he claims they work). Do I think tweaks, cables and the like are a waste of money? No, not if you like them and believe them to make a positive difference.
     
  26. stranger

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    MikeK, dont keep going back into scientific stuff and lab oriented tests, music is about emotion as much as anything, just try it, by the way the internal fuse will always blow before the plug fuse-plug fuses very rarely blow.your sugestion about by-passing everything is not a bad idea sound wise-it would let a lot more clean (not degraded by fuses and switches etc.) power through, far outweighing the rfi which would be blocked by a yellow power cable and silencer anyway.:)
     
  27. MikeK

    MikeK
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    Couple of points

    First, it's all very well saying music isn't about science, but the reproduction of music through an electronic system is - until the loudspeaker actually churns out something you can hear, then the "music" is simply an electical signal travelling down a cable, being amplified, converted, etc etc..
    It's certain companies which are making claims that their products can influence that signal to a clearly audible degree. If someone tells me that product X will improve the sound, I now immediately ask the question "How?". Is that unreasonable?
    I actually agree about music itself being essentially an emotional experience, which is why I don't really bother with all this pseudo-scientific clap trap about many of the hifi accessory products available today.

    Those who have been around a bit will remember some of the higher profile ones - little metal foil triangles you stuck all over your kit, green felt pens round the edge of the CD, freezing the CD in your freezer etc etc. They were in vogue for a while, but then disappeared as people gradually realised it was all smoke and mirrors psychology - the improvements people swore they could hear suddenly evaporated when they actually stepped back, thought about it, and realised they'd been had.
    I know/knew more than a few people who fell for the foil triangle BS - but like politicians, they strenuously deny it now of course :)


    As for the money back guarantee, well again IMO that's a bit of clever marketing as well. He knows unbelievers are unlikely to purchase - his likely purchasers will either be believers who expect it all to make a difference (no surprise when it does) and skeptics who may buy, but aren't too sure. No problem, simply reassure them with a money back guarantee. If they don't feel the product has made any improvements, he runs the risk of having to refund your money, but not before he gets another crack at a captive customer with an even more ambitious sales pitch - "you need to follow the whole upgrade plan, not just part of it". Some will take the refund, but others will bite a second time, and a third, and so on.
    Is it coincidence that the "burn in time" for his cables is 500 hours (that's 21 days at 24hours a day - not far short of the 30 day time limit on refunds) but of course they have a machine which can give them the equivalent of that, and it only costs another £10.

    Oh I'm such a cynic these days aren't I ? :)


    Still if people are prepared to splash their cash on expensive products without ever asking the questions, that's up to them.
    I accept that they aren't harming anyone by doing so.
    If someone is convinced that this or that has given them real improvements in their enjoyment of their system, then fine, I wouldn't argue - but I would always ask the question "Are you sure, and how did you arrive at this conclusion?"
    BTW, I'm not a born unbeliever, I'm a convert - I used to buy into all this stuff. Maybe not as much as some, but still....
    Gradually it dawned on me that I wasn't really asking the questions, and when I did, it began to become clear, for me at least, that I had simply gone along with it all. Don't really know why now, but once I started asking myself the questions, and testing to see if it was all in my mind - guess what, largely it was.

    As for the comparison with T2, I see they aren't claiming that you should clean the disc, and then watch in amazement as .... "Wow, where did that cyborg come from, it wasn't there before" :) :p
     
  28. juboy

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    Very true, they are not claiming you will see things that were never there... but they are categorically stating that a poor picture will be returned to it's 'normal' state by cleaning the disc.

    This isn't an attempt to sell anything, that part has already been done in this case. It just strikes me that if there is something on the disc that is put there by the process of physically producing the it, maybe the cleaning of other discs using, for example, ReVeel, might bring about subtle improvements.

    Although my local store would possibly kill me for doing so, I always use a Mr Sheen anti-static polish to clean hired DVDs before watching them. This was brought about by hiring 'Tigerland' and it not playing properly. I checked the disc and was appalled by the crap all over it. One clean with the polish and a cloth and it worked fine. I'm not saying it looked any better (I had no way of knowing how it looked pre-polish) but it did actually work.

    As for the green pen thing... I remember that whole theory, that green is the opposite of red (the laser colour) and so it helps absorb 'stray' light whilst the CD (or later, DVD) plays.

    I didn't ever buy a pen exactly but did invest in some green plastic, edge clips that not only cancel the stray red light but also help stabilise the CD/DVD. Does it work? Who knows, but they cost me £10 8 years ago and I still use them today. Not bad value for something that may work and certainly doesn't negatively affect playback.

    I suppose to many, the whole spending money on tweaks for your kit thing is how I view the young kids who spend £3k on an old Corsa then spend another £3k doing it, er, 'up'. Why not just spend £5k on a half decent car in the first place ;)
     
  29. MikeK

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    This is just it - maybe it doesn't negatively affect playback - but to buy a product for even just £10 and then say it's not bad value because it doesn't make things worse, seems a little bizarre to me. I could sell you a thousand things which won't negatively affect the playback of your CDs, and "may work".
    :) :p


    Just to be a bit mischievous, from the opposite perspective you could equally say

    "Not good value for something that may not work and certainly doesn't positively affect playback"


    For me, the lines are somewhat more clear cut - it either works or it doesn't. If I can't hear any difference (let alone whether it's an improvement) then it's a waste of money - simple as that!
    I thought the whole point of spending money on your system was to make it sound better, not just so that it won't sound any worse - doing nothing at all to it is the best way to do that! :)
     
  30. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    MikeK

    I am not sure it is as simple as that for many people. Many of the people who contact me about Kimber initially take the view that it can do no harm and might do much good, particularly with an ever changing / evolving problem. They convince themselves that they have done something about a potential problem, just in case, as a sort of insurance. They are happy to buy insurance. They get a very nice surprize when they also notice a difference they like as well, despite being cynical and just thinking of it as 'insurance' originally. For many this insurance is useful as the cables may have no effect normally but do have an effect when the son goes and puts his computer on in the bed room to play games. This problem and quality of supply is ever changing and difficult to pin down.

    Life isn't always black and white.:)
     

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