Question Interconnectors

FlexMyFoil

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I am due to receive my new PM8005 and NA-11S1 next week

Now the connections on the PM8005 are RCA only where as the NA-11S1 are RCA or XLR

My Q is, is there any advantage of connecting the two using an XLR to RCA or just RCA to RCA?

Also, any suggestions on cables? Budget I should be spending? I have an AQ Vodka Ethernet for the switch to streamer and an AQ Cinnamon Ethernet from NAS to switch, also AQ Cinnamon Ethernet from switch to laptop - Maybe over kill

Thanks in advance
 
RCA to XLR is pointless, though possible. That is to say, it can work, but with none of the benefits of a balanced connection. So just keep it simple and by an RCA-RCA lead.

No point spending extra money on cables, they all work the same. Your AQ ethernet cables in particular btw, were pointless purchases and AQ are guilty of perpetrating an outrageous fraud against the public for these absurd snake-oil cables! If you can, get your money back.
 
Though its a bit rich for my blood, but considering the cost of your setup, a pair of 1m Chord Crimson Audio cables should do well and a good place to start. You can of course spend more, a lot more, but i would suggest to try them on your system before committing as the difference may be negligible and or not worth the extra expense.

Can i ask why the AQ ethernet?

Though i will not be a colorful as DL but i do agree with him. £100+ on 3m ethernet is overkill. And i just seen a 12m AQ Vodka ethernet for £1450 or £215 for 0.75m. I'm sorry, I know it is your money and you can do what you please so i mean no offence, but that's crazy.

I bought a 200m shielded Ethernet reel of the bay for £30, connectors, data sockets, RJ45 crimpers and tester for a further £20. Wired my whole house with it, including the cable from the wall to all network devices. they are not as pretty as the AQ but since i don't live in a microwave or inside a power plant, i know i will be ok and that has been the case since installed 6 month ago. Blu ray films, flac and WAV music files have streamed across my network faultlessly.
 
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Any suggestions on cables? Budget I should be spending? Thanks

The ethernet thing... you just need something well made so £5 or less per cable. A pair of RCA's regardless of how good your system is shouldn't need to be above £30. If you feel this is too little, see if you can go along to a decent local recording studio and ask the guy who owns it why is he using cables at this price or less on the thousands of pounds of hardware.
 
Expensive cables are Pretty, but that is about all they are. I can see some value to the lower end of high end cables, but above the low end of high end, it is hard to justify the price.

While I restrain myself on high end cables, equally I would not recommend the cheapest cables you can find. In the mid-range of consumer grade wire and cable, you will get pretty much every thing you need.

Generally to stop the endless and pointless circular debate on wire and cable, I say budget about 5% of the total system cost. When it actually come time to buy, you can go more or less as you please, but 5% at least sets some restraint on the budget. And is pretty consistent with what people actually do. Most are in the 3% to 4% range, varying greatly with the details and nature of the system, so budgeting about 5% is pretty reasonable.

Using a USA site simply because I know they have a wide range of AudioQuest cable; the AudioQuest Golden Gate 1m RCA-RCA are about $68. The AudioQuest Sydney 1M RCA-RCA are $178.

The truth is, the Golden Gate actually look nicer. The Golden Gate claim "Perfect Surface Copper", if the copper is so good in the Golden Gate, then what more could the Sydney possible offer? Yes, the Sydney make claims for "Perfect Surface Copper PLUS", but cable with less than Perfect Surface would work just fine.

So, while I would have no problem paying the considerable $68 for the Golden Gate, it seems insane to consider the $178 Sydney models. What could they possible offer, when you consider common £15 to £25 cable are just fine? So, I would accept that the Golden Gate are about $40 ego and $20 performance. And, I'm OK with that.

I won't tell you what to do. Buy expensive cool looking cable if you want, but stay restrained. Above the low end of high end, there really isn't much there but ego and hype. In reality, most will be completely satisfied with the mid to slightly above mid-end of common consumer cable and wire.

As to XLR-Balanced to RCA, as others have indicated, it is pointless. If you can't go XLR-to-XLR than just stick with RCA-to-RCA connections. The best benefit for XLR is on slightly longer runs. But most runs for Audio Cable that you are likely to encounter are well within the working range of RCA.

The same with AudioQuest Ethernet cable. If you are willing to buy AudioQuest over common CAT6 cable, fine. But don't be taken in by the hype. Stick with the lower end AudioQuest cables. And in reality common but high quality CAT6 pre-made cable would serve you just as well.

A quick check indicates that the AudioQuest Vodka is about £700 for 5 meters, that's very excessive. Beyond all reason and measure.

AudioQuest Vodka RJ/E Ethernet Cable 5m - Audioquest - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

That is more than £100 per meter, there is just no way to justify that expense.

One would expect this to do just as well, while looking slightly less cool (Forest 5M £85) -

AudioQuest Forest RJ/E Ethernet Cable 5m - Audioquest - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

Also note that the longer connectors on the Vodka are going to put more strain on the Connector that they are plugging into.

The reality is, you will probably get perfectly good service with this cable - Value Line CAT6 10m (£10) -

Valueline CAT6 FTP Ethernet / Network Cable 10m - Ethernet Cables - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

Or this QED 5m Ethernet cable (£30) -

QED Performance Graphite Ethernet Cable 5m - By Brand - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

Even the AudioQuest Cinnamon is massive overkill at 8m for £189 -

AudioQuest Cinnamon RJ/E Ethernet Cable 8m - Audioquest - AudioVisual Online - Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

I have nothing against generally expensive cables, but you need to really exercise restraint.

So, should I win the lottery and start to put together a more expensive system, I would be governed by two rules -

1.) Budget roughly 5% of total system cost for all wire and cable, and use that as a guideline to restrain my spending.

2.) Keep it under 3-digits (£100). It is hard to justify £100 for any cable, so as long as you stay under that, you will not get too excessive in your spending.



But of course ... that's just my opinion.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Steve,

I would like to thank you for your detailed reply and non abusive response towards my silly purchases.

I have knocked my head against the wall and returned the Vodka in exchange for a Cinnamon (my complete setup is using AQ Cinnamon) at a discounted price of £80/3mtr.

I understand you can loose yourself when it comes to linking up expensive audio equipment, it seems correct to spend the extra on cables!

Maybe I got bit, but with an understanding retailer who is happy to listen and exchange, I consider myself lucky.

Thank you for the heads up on RCA to RCA connections
 
Wire and Cable are one of the most hotly discussed areas of Audio. Sadly it does bring out the curmudgeons and contrarians. Instead of helping the Original Poster solve his problems, it descends in to an endless circle of everyone telling everyone else they are idiots.

That serves no one.

That helps no one.

Typically the Original Poster goes away in frustration at not having his issues and questions addressed.

Since this is an endless belligerent pointless discussion, I focus on giving people practical guidelines and productive perspective. There are many who disagree with me, but few of them ever get to the point and offer productive useful advice.

I have no problem with whatever anyone wants to spend on cable and wire. Your life, your system, your money, do as you will. But I do urge restraint. Yes, if I were building a very expensive system, I would get expensive cables, but they would be reasonably expensive, not insanely expensive. I believe cable like this does have some value, even if sound is only the most minor aspect of thatr value.

In my opinion, though since they sell them other must disagree, the VODKA at £100 per meter is excessive, and the DIAMOND at about £1000 per meter is certifiably insane. And while it could be done cheaper, no one is going to the poor house from paying £80 for a 3 meter cable.

Keep in mind, that whole enterprises, large businesses with company wide networks are generally wired with common base price CAT5 or now CAT6. Hundred of meters of wire, and those networks serve those companies without problems.

So, I don't urge people to get the cheapest they can find. I simply urge restraint within their budget range, which for me is in the area of about 5% of system cost.

Sounds like you have a very nice system, and I'm sure it will serve you exceptionally well for many years to come.

I'm curious, what are your speakers?

Scanning through the thread, I only see the amp and streamers?

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Generally to stop the endless and pointless circular debate on wire and cable, I say budget about 5% of the total system cost.
Such debate is certainly endless, but it is not pointless - normal, well-made cables don't make an audible difference, so I say budget as much as is needed to get the job done, and no more. That budget is independent of your system budget. If you have a £10k system, not inconceivable, then 5% of that would be £500 and that is an absurd amount of money to spend. If your system cost you £200, then 5% would be £10 and that wouldn't be enough.
 
normal, well-made cables don't make an audible difference, so I say budget as much as is needed to get the job done, and no more

And please don't forget the same is true for all cd players and amplifiers...

Sorry, I couldn't resist:)
 
then 5% of that would be £500 and that is an absurd amount of money to spend
Agreed.
Unfortunately this idea that you spend a percentage on wires was a good ploy by sales people.
A good RCA to RCA is good regardless of the system.

One thing has changed in the last decade is that it is now possible to get really rubbish cables from China and they contain almost no copper, are very very thin (think transformer wire) with no screening or shield at all. Avoid at all costs.
 
Agreed.
Unfortunately this idea that you spend a percentage on wires was a good ploy by sales people.

I never told anyone what to spend, I gave them a general budget guideline. Budget 5%, then buy what you need.

The examples used by Doomlord_UK were extremes. And if you do have a £10k system, it wouldn't hurt to BUDGET £500 for wire and cable. Though in the end, you can spend what you like, spend more, spend less, to your own taste.

As to the opposite end of the spectrum, if you are buying a crappy £200 audio system, likely the dealer will throw in some crappy wire and cable to match it. Net cost = £0.

The other counter argument is that all systems are different. The needs of a complete AV system are different than a basic stereo. Doesn't matter; again, I'm telling them what to budget, not what to spend.

Further I've found that people typically spend about 3% to 4% of their system cost on wire and cable, so the suggestion of budgeting 5% is not that far off.

A good RCA to RCA is good regardless of the system.

On this we agree, just as a Ford is as good as a BMW, is as good as a Mercedes, is as good as a Lamborghini. They all get you there.

But this is precisely the discussion I've fought to avoid, all you and DoomLord have done is complain and grouse. Not productive.

How about directing your comments to the Original Poster, and to his needs? How about helping him find wire and cable that will suit those needs? It doesn't help to tell the world they are wrong. What helps are concrete directed suggestions to solve the problem at hand.

One thing has changed in the last decade is that it is now possible to get really rubbish cables from China and they contain almost no copper, are very very thin (think transformer wire) with no screening or shield at all. Avoid at all costs.

So, you are admitting that not all cable and wire is the same. So, since clearly you can tell the difference between good cable and not good cable, how about you make some directed suggestions that would help the Original Poster solve his dilemma.

Criticize what I said all you want, but at least I gave to Original Poster a framework that helps him solve his problem.

And I am more than happy to allow the Original Poster to read my suggestions and make up his own mind. It seem he is more than satisifed with the advice I gave, and equally found it helpful in choosing reasonable cable at a reasonable price by his own definition of 'reasonable'.

Shall I quote the Original Poster?

"I would like to thank you for your detailed reply and non abusive response towards my silly purchases."

I think there is a greater message hidden there in.

Steve/bluewizard
 
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Did you get out of bed the wrong side ? I wasn't directing any comments against what you had posted. I think you must have read my post wrong .;)

We can all have opinions and it maybe useful.
Briefly I made two points:
Don't buy very cheap cables off ebay or such like, because they are not copper, very thin, might break and will not last. I thought it was an interesting point as I have only seen these very cheap cables in the last 10 years or so. Before, no manufacturer would dream of producing anything so cheaply made. You can buy a Gold mini jack to RCA for less than 99p? Best avoided.

Secondly, I don't agree with the percentage idea. I won't be specific because that's not important to the point. A good cable might cost £20 -£50. It is still good whether it is used on a moderate system or an expensive system. See - not controversial at all :)

My Q is, is there any advantage of connecting the two using an XLR to RCA or just RCA to RCA?
No, RCA to RCA is the way to go.
RCA to XLR is pointless.
As for internet connection- buy standard RJ45 patch cable from a reputable manufacturer- Belkin etc.
 
I can't resist reading these cable related discussions, but never feel inclined to comment. On this occasion I thought I’d join in the discussion just to share my thoughts.

Copper is the best bang for buck conductor for audio equipment, no real argument there. From what I can gather, most copper that is produced is manufactured to strict ISO requirements that control the mechanical and chemical properties of the material.

I can’t imagine that for the relatively small volumes of copper wire used in in the speaker cable/interconnect manufacturing industry that individual cable companies would have their own copper wire ‘formulas’ specified.

What might be specific to the company would be how it is twisted/woven (or whatever the term is) to produce the cable. Perhaps this makes a perceptible difference to the quality of the signal or perhaps not?

Likewise in the case of main and Ethernet cables, ISO specifications dictate the wire properties and how the cable is constructed. So within the confines of the ISO specification I struggle to see how one cable could offer any benefit over another.

My own personal view is that provided the copper is of sufficient quality per the ISO specification and is of adequate construction (and thickness in the case of speaker cables) there should be no difference in it suitability for purpose or indeed the effect on the quality of the signal that is passed through it.

In the case of the more expensive, nicer looking cables (or anything for that matter), I would be mindful of what I was actually paying for, e.g. low volume manufacture, design and development costs, unnecessarily exotic materials, expensive marketing, Michelin starred lunches for Hi-Fi magazine journalists:D, etc.

That said, the feel good factor is sometimes worth the extra outlay, so on that basis I’d suggest that taking BlueWizard's advice into consideration, the OP buys whatever floats his boat.


Cheers. Ian
 
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I haven't complained or groused.

You're right that my examples of a 5% budget are 'extreme' - that was the whole point! Taking a percentage approach is a fundamentally bad idea, because it takes no account of function. The function of a cable is to conduct a voltage signal without audible distortion. That's a function that gets met at a fixed price point. You also want it to be well-made, but that's not difficult and again is met at a fixed price point. Regardless of your overall system value, that's the only amount of money the OP needs to spend on a cable.

Look on Amazon and you will find it hard to spend more than £5 on a well made, 1m long RCA-RCA stereo IC cable. So that's £5 to link your CDP to your amp. It doesn't matter what those components cost, the cable's job isn't any different because the price labels varied. It carries a 2V signal a distance of 1m. That's it, full stop.
 
In your opinion ... right?

I gave him a range of cables from £10 to £100. He chose to trade his £700 cable for a very nice £80 cable based on my advice. He is satisfied, I'm satisfied, so why aren't you satisfied?

Steve/bluewizard
 
In my opinion, which is based on an actual understanding of modern science and what it costs to do the actual job. What's your opinion based on??

I gave him a range of cables from £3 to £5. He chose one that cost £80, but then, I gave him a choice too late (I honestly hadn't noticed he'd already acted). I wonder if he'd have spent differently if I'd got back to him sooner...

He says he's satisfied, so good for him. I've no doubt whatsoever that both Audioquest and the dealer are both satisfied, since a £70+ markup is pretty sweet. You're satisfied, because your antiscientific, feelgood advice was followed and seemingly validated.

I'm NOT satisfied, because once again someone got ripped off after following bad advice, whilst several hundred years of scientific and philosophical progess was thrown out the window in the pursuit of feeling good about delicate signals. Not to mention this example sets yet another precedent for yet more people to get ripped off. People complain about the death of our hobby... is it any wonder why?

I hope I managed to answer your question.
 
Notice I also recommended a $10 Ethernet cable, and explained that it would get the job done as good as any other.

However, I also suspect, that right or not, whether you like it or not, people generally fit the accessories to the system. People are most inclined to have things in proportion. Further, my recommendation of BUDGETING 5% fits what most people actually do.

Yes, there are a group of people who have £10,000 systems and go out of their way to find the cheapest wire and cable they can find. I think that's stupid, but they can do what they want.

Why do people by BMW? A Ford with take you from place to place just a easily and for a much lower price. Answer: Because there are other consideration beyond basic function. If we simply went by basic function, everyone would drive a Ford and wear a Timex.

I don't tell people what to do, I tell the what can be done and the merits of each possible choice, and let them make up their own mind.

Certainly I can find various cable, not at £5, but in the roughly £15 to £25 range that are perfectly fine cables for general use. None the less, I scale these accessories to my system. In my case, that is about 4%, though thrown a bit off by having bought a new considerably expensive amp.

Equally, if I were looking at a system for considerably more money, I would still get subjectively better wire and cable. Why - because I can afford it, the same reason people buy BMW and Mercedes. If you can afford a £20,000 system, you can afford to budget £1000 on wire and cable. Note I said BUDGET not spend. Spend what you want.

A £700 Ethernet Cable is way out of proportion to his system. A still very good, very attractive, very high quality £80 Ethernet Cable is not out of proportion.

I gave him advice he could use, and he used it. And you gave him .... what... grief? Criticism? You certainly didn't give him any practical recommendations.

Steve/bluewizard
 
What's the virtue of proportion? Why is that a better basis for deciding how to spend money than functionality? Just because people can spend ££££ doesn't mean they should, nor does it imply they'd get any more value if they did. You can spend what you please, and clearly you do, based on ratios and we're all happy for you, but spending money 'because you can afford it' is dumb. People don't buy Mercs and Beemers 'because they can' but because these cars are demonstrably better than Vauxhalls and Seats. You can't say the same thing about expensive wires. They're NOT any better. So, aside from "keeping things in proportion" what's the point in budgeting more than you need to spend?
 
It was Richer Sounds that first started this idea of "don't forget to budget x% on cables". Probably because good healthy profits were on wires, whereas the amplifier you went in for, had been cut down to the bone.
I don't like the Ford/ BMW analogy because it is not the same.

How about a fine wine being sipped from a cut crystal glass or a cheap supermarket glass?
The wine tastes the same (just like the sound is the same from a good quality cable) but you choose to have an expensive wine glass because you want to live with the finer things in life.
 
I haven't complained or groused.
Quite. No further post is required as point already made once and you are not the original poster anyway
 

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