In search of a warm, relaxed sound

Itsthesmell

Active Member
The upgrade is complete and the clarity is an upgrade over the standard menuets. Pianos have more Nuance's than before. Vocals are a bit odd, Ben Howard' old pine sounds like he's singing into a tin box. It seems like a filter has been removed but is it better?
Checking the equaliser settings the bass was up, turning it down has helped, but vocals are too clear, if that's possible. I'll put some hours on them tonight and see how it goes.

Do crossovers have burn in times?
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
The upgrade is complete and the clarity is an upgrade over the standard menuets. Pianos have more Nuance's than before. Vocals are a bit odd, Ben Howard' old pine sounds like he's singing into a tin box. It seems like a filter has been removed but is it better?
Checking the equaliser settings the bass was up, turning it down has helped, but vocals are too clear, if that's possible. I'll put some hours on them tonight and see how it goes.

Do crossovers have burn in times?
DIY applies more for DIY sell speakers. Should think Dali knows what they are doing.
 

Itsthesmell

Active Member
Chris Huelsbeck' Turrican 2 Orchestral album is incredible. I love this album but this is the best I've heard it. As with any change in HiFi components some of the music you previously loved will sound different, maybe not better maybe not worse, different. I'm pleased with it so far.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I am glad you like the sound, it’s just that you voided the warranty now. In my opinion you should not tweak fabric designed speakers.
 

password1

Suspended
I am glad you like the sound, it’s just that you voided the warranty now. In my opinion you should not tweak fabric designed speakers.
Is it genuine Dali crossover bought from a Dali approved dealer so its just a direct swap, just take the standard one out and put the new 'se' crossover in?
 

Itsthesmell

Active Member
Yeah its from dali, I emailed them asking if I could purchase a mundorf capacitor and anything else I'd need to upgrade my memuets to the se version. The wood vaneer of the se wouldnt suit the office. They gave me the part number I needed to take to RS. It was £60 for both, I didn't receive a mundorf cap I received the entire crossover with terminals all on 1 board. I had to remove the woofers to get to the spade plugs. The SE are about £300 over the standard menuet. So I've saved £240.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Perhaps I spoke to fast. I’ve done the same with B&W speakers. Not caps but tweeters.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
Edit, crossovers. Which crossover are used in the standard Menuet?
 

password1

Suspended
Did you need to do any soldering to fit the se cross over? or was it just a simple job just a screwdriver needed?
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
But forward sounding tweeters can possibly become tiresome of long listening periods. ( That is what I have found many moons passed when demoing certain speakers)
Has the digital age changed the way new speaker designers have created their house sounds?
Can we really class AV as real audio though, with all its speakers and sound processing?
This issue of bright edgy sounding speakers in the last few years really annoys me, I mean it's not as though their designers are lacking the right tools and software to get a nice flat balance, yeah sure I do understand they might have to be compatible with surround sound duties as well but mostly I think it's just laziness or an eagerness to just get as many products out there as quick as possible and sell them without refining them properly.
I think they also tend to use lower quality drivers (made in house) these days to maximise their profit margins which usually means they need to design better crossovers to counter the poor driver performance, and that cost extra money so they just don't bother.
The problem I hear all the time with so many budget speakers is they tend to have a nasty peak in the 2-4Khz range (lower treble/high midrange) This is easy to dial out with a bit of equalization but the end user should not have to do this. I even heard this problem in Dali Rubycon 2's, something I wouldn't expect in a small speaker costing £1600, and yet another pair of speakers I tried that were sent packing.

I can always tell in the first few seconds of music if a loudspeaker has this trait, if you can HEAR the tweeter shouting at you then the crossover has not been designed properly, in a 2, 3 or 4 way speaker you should not be able to hear where the lower frequency and midrange joins with the tweeter, it should sound like a single driver producing ALL of the frequency range and you should not be able to hear any one frequency over another, this is how a good design differs from a poor design. Any peaks and troughs should be dialled out with the crossover so all the drivers blend seamlessly and that should also translate to the listener after final production.
There is really NO EXCUSE to design poor sounding loudspeakers in this day and age with the amount of technology available to them, even if they are lower end models.
...Gripe over.
 

password1

Suspended
An issue for speaker designers is that everyone has different hearing. Do some people hear certain frequencies louder or less.
 

musicphil

Active Member
This issue of bright edgy sounding speakers in the last few years really annoys me, I mean it's not as though their designers are lacking the right tools and software to get a nice flat balance, yeah sure I do understand they might have to be compatible with surround sound duties as well but mostly I think it's just laziness or an eagerness to just get as many products out there as quick as possible and sell them without refining them properly.
I think they also tend to use lower quality drivers (made in house) these days to maximise their profit margins which usually means they need to design better crossovers to counter the poor driver performance, and that cost extra money so they just don't bother.
The problem I hear all the time with so many budget speakers is they tend to have a nasty peak in the 2-4Khz range (lower treble/high midrange) This is easy to dial out with a bit of equalization but the end user should not have to do this. I even heard this problem in Dali Rubycon 2's, something I wouldn't expect in a small speaker costing £1600, and yet another pair of speakers I tried that were sent packing.

I can always tell in the first few seconds of music if a loudspeaker has this trait, if you can HEAR the tweeter shouting at you then the crossover has not been designed properly, in a 2, 3 or 4 way speaker you should not be able to hear where the lower frequency and midrange joins with the tweeter, it should sound like a single driver producing ALL of the frequency range and you should not be able to hear any one frequency over another, this is how a good design differs from a poor design. Any peaks and troughs should be dialled out with the crossover so all the drivers blend seamlessly and that should also translate to the listener after final production.
There is really NO EXCUSE to design poor sounding loudspeakers in this day and age with the amount of technology available to them, even if they are lower end models.
...Gripe over.

I think the majority of the speakers that have been designed over the last 10 years or so on more forward sounding, because maybe the modern ear is slightly tuned different or maybe its become fashionable to have forward sounding speakers? But I do think there is a definite change in sound.
Is it all because of bad engineered speakers?
I doubt it, one or two maybe, but there are alot of forward sounding speakers currently on the market.
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
I think the majority of the speakers that have been designed over the last 10 years or so on more forward sounding, because maybe the modern ear is slightly tuned different or maybe its become fashionable to have forward sounding speakers? But I do think there is a definite change in sound.
Is it all because of bad engineered speakers?
I doubt it, one or two maybe, but there are alot of forward sounding speakers currently on the market.
I disagree, the average human hearing hasn't changed in the last 20 years or so, you only have to search through the amount threads on here to see that this issue IS a problem, so many folks posting "why do my new speakers sound so bright", "looking for a smoother sound" " why am I getting listener fatigue with my new speakers?" "Not happy with my new speakers" and on and on it goes.
Do the designers conducting listening tests in a speakers production have cloth ears? Are their ears clogged with wax? or are they just making them sound that way to try and stand out in the demo room compared to a more flat natural sounding speaker. Might be great for a few minutes in the demo room with some super high quality recording but completely useless when you get them home and start going through your music collection, but by then it's usually too late and you have to start badgering the dealer to exchange them for something else.
This peak in the upper response might be OK for watching movies through a surround sound system but it certainly isn't for listening to 2 channel stereo which seems to be gathering momentum again.
 

password1

Suspended
Do speaker designers tune their speakers to match the market's listening material/genres of music and room sizes?

eg the monitor audio bronze 6 were originally designed for the American markets as the average living room is larger and they favour bigger bass...

are we seeing speakers that are bright where they are mainly dual purpose (av and stereo music)? where they have a centre channel in the range)

less chance of music only speakers being bright?
 

musicphil

Active Member
Not too sure you can call B&W, Dali, Focal and Klipsch (just to name a few) all badly designed speakers.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
I have the impression speakers today are trying to catch up with the modern times.

Everything needs to precise like clockwork.
 

Helix Hifi

Well-known Member
One main factor is this: Most speaker manufacturers caters the sound by audiophile music/masterings.

Hence, bright sound.

Let’s face it, do you listen to boring audiophile music? I sure don’t.

Audiophile music for me is Pink Floyd, Dire Straits. Janis Joplin, Pearl album. Neil Young, Leonard Cohen.

Of course other albums too.

Do audio shops put on this recordings for the customer? No. It’s Cris Jones, No Sanctuary. The latter is boring...

But sometimes Leonard Cohen lasted albums. Which are musical, audiophile treasures.

In the end you need to put on bad recordings too, to evaluate the speakers.
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
Not too sure you can call B&W, Dali, Focal and Klipsch (just to name a few) all badly designed speakers.
Focal no, the rest ..room for improvement.
 

Demiurg

Standard Member
Not sure whether the OP is still looking for recommendations but I would suggest listening to some of the Quad S-Series range (probably S-1 or S-2 bookshelf models depending on budget/deals).

These have a nice natural, relaxed and unfatiguing sound, helped by the ribbon tweeters.
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
Can we really class AV as real audio though, with all its speakers and sound processing?

AV sound can be just the same as hifi sound and if anything, a typical AVR setup tries to get closer to conveying the original sound to the listener (via room correction DSP, active bass management etc) than a typical stereo hifi. Also there is the option of dolby atmos music which is done well could be the in home live experience some people look for.

I don't think you can dismiss it is not being 'real audio'. The issue many of us have with AVRs is about their lack of ability to convey the same level of detail or handle speakers as well as a decent stereo integrated amp and personally I find the room DSP on many to just not be very good for music. Perhaps for those with Lyngdorf AV processors and a rack of amps things are much better via stereo music via an AV system ;)
 

musicphil

Active Member
If you haven't got the detail at the beginning of the chain, then you cannot get it back from any other part your system regardless of what speakers speakers or amplifier you own.
There was a saying years ago.....sh*te in, you get sh*te out.
 

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