In need of 20hz and below subwoofer.

JazAV

Standard Member
Im in the market for a new subwoofer. At the moment I'm using a dual subwoofer setup for movies - a Klipsch R-12SW along with an Elac S10. I really didn't know too much about subwoofers at the time when I bought them, hence the odd pair that they are. I bought the Elac B5 bookshelf for fronts so I thought 'why not get the matching sub?' without really knowing about frequency response. Once I realised I can bring the poor little sub to it's knees in an instant with movies I knew I needed something more powerful. Looking at reviews and price I decided to go for the Klipsch R-12SW (I forgot why now). I ended up buying the Minidsp 2x4 to help out with balancing out the subs and it does a great job at that. BUT....the Elac goes down to 35hz and the Klipsch only down to 19hz. I want 20hz.
Now I understand so much more about frequency response, cabinets and woofers that I want something that will truly shock me. The only way to achieve this is to spend some serious bucks or diy (not for me). My small HT room is literally 4 x 3 meters. Again whichever sub I buy, I will go dual in a few months from buying the first one. OTT is fine with me. I really can fit 2 Monoliths here and they would be well out of the way but absolutely nothing bigger.

I really, really need a 20hz subwoofer and the BK Monolith Plus is on my radar. But with such an investment I've been looking for a while and have come to the conclusion that its still the best bang for buck subwoofer I can find anywhere here in the UK. The SVS PB1000 - too small. The SVS PB-2000 - too big. XTZ 12.17 - heard a lot about the company skimping on plate amp components hence the fail rate (correct me if I'm wrong here.) Arendal - too expensive. So in conclusion to my dilemma.....

Is the BK Monolith Plus really too old of a subwoofer to be considered in 2019? If someone can help guide me in the right direction here.....your help would be greatly appreciated.
 

fatboy frank

Distinguished Member

JazAV

Standard Member
Well, these are going right out of my price range. I think I should have mentioned that my limit would be around £600. A little over is OK but I only want ported and the PSA ones start at £900. These I will look at when I expand to a larger room. I meant OTT as in the size of the sub, not the price. Man, those PSA subs have some great frequency measurements.

I'm already looking at the V1510 now but it is £1,349.00. Just not the right time for this level of infrasonic subwoofery.

Any other recommendations?
 
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Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
I couldn't find any FR on the newest BK stuff on their website but if the system is tuned to 20hz you should be getting reasonable bass down to 14-17hz in your smaller room environment. It's very difficult to say for sure, exactly, what will happen though as the port and driver will increasingly cancel <20hz so even with unusually high pressure vessel effect(room gain) the topping point will be sudden and significant.

I'd check on xtz stuff within the budget too. Maybe the 12/17(?) set to sealed mode.


Tom V.
 

JazAV

Standard Member
Wow, thanks guys for your replies so far, much appreciated. I've heard a few things about the XTZ 12.17 amps that are not good so for the time being I will steer clear. So the port and driver will increasingly cancel below 20hz? And the roll off will be sudden and significant?

Also I'm now curious why you would point me towards an XTZ sub (or any other sub, for that matter) and set it to sealed mode. Would a sealed sub benefit my room more than a ported one in some way? Remember that its going to be used for movies.
 
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Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
If the sealed sub has a relatively shallow roll-off <25hz...say down 15dB at 10hz for example...I would expect it to be able to pressurize your room space to some degree down to 10hz or even a bit below. But the key consideration, of course, is just how much output it will give you at 7-10hz. A ported sub, tuned to 20hz, won't give you anything at 10hz. MAYBE 15hz, maybe.

ported will typically give you the higher "output/dollar" ratio from the tuning point and up(and a *little* below tuning, say 1/6th octave). Sealed will have the potential for deeper extension. But you always want to ensure adequate output first, then chase extension. If a sub can give you 10hz but it is regularly bumping up against its limits across the much more common frequencies---say 20-40hz...it's not going to sound very good regardless.

the BK xxls400 could be a contender but we'd need to see a FR graph.

Tom V.
 

JazAV

Standard Member
That's some really good and handy info there, Tom. But I was under the impression that for a sealed sub to perform admirably at those frequencies it would cost considerably more than a ported one, even in my room.

Yes, I wish BK had put a FR graph out there for buyers to look at. We can only go by customer reviews. It does say on the BK website, however, for the XXLS400:
Frequency Response at -3dB: In your front room -3dB lower than 20Hz !!!

And for the Monolith Plus it says:
Frequency Response at -3dB: 20Hz / In Room at 15Hz

The Monolith literally has zero published reviews. Even from AVForums.com. If you take in the dimensions, power etc, the BK monolith Plus is very close to the size and power of the SVS PB-2000. My guess would be it performs comparatively.
 

Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/

https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5750-bk-monolith-df-2-a.html

https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5751-bk-xls200-df-mk2.html

I seem to remember BK adding a much steeper roll off <25hz to the monoliths sometime after these tests. I'm too tired to try to find the info though..:)

You'll need to define the goals at some point. "deeper than 20hz" can mean 19hz or 10hz or even lower. If strong bass down to (at least) 16-17hz in your room is good enough the monolith should be a great choice.

Tom V.
 

JazAV

Standard Member
I'm sorry, I didn't mention my goals. My goals are exactly what you said - strong bass down to roughly 17hz. Thanks, I will probably stick with the choice of the Monolith Plus in black FF. Once I have it I will post here again with my impressions, some pics and a REW FR graph.

I won't forget to add another graph later, once I have two Monolith Plus'. Tom @ PSA, you have been a great help and fatboy frank, of course. Much appreciated all.

Anybody else feel free to post here if you have recently bought a Monolith. These are an old design so I would love to hear what any newer buyers have to say about their impressions of it.
 

Bone9

Active Member
This is my monolith plus :)

Work In Progress Middle.jpg
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Monolith owners thread has new happy owners. Max output 20-80hz & extension wise it´s very similar to SVS PB1000, the Plus model isn´t likely going to change that as the driver is very similar than on normal model and wattages isn´t even doubling. SVS is cheaper unless you buy BK through their Ebay channel. You can call there and ask do they have black FF available as they don´t list every model. The price would be ~502£ +30£ shipping!
colosussxb | eBay


PB2000 is about ~5 db`s ahead of Mono at 20-80hz and around 7db at 16hz, it has lower port tuning and usable output under 20hz. PB2000 is little bit deeper, but otherwise similar sized to M+ FF.

Mono has one published review i know of. http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Monolith Review.pdf

XTZ 12.17 Edge has ICEpower amp modules similar to what PSA uses, less chance of failure as they are known to be reliable. 5year amp warranty! The ability to tune it to your liking is nice. Sealed or vented and you can decide do you want to emphasize the "chest punch" range where this will outperform even PB2000 or the lower range (PB2000 has edge cause much larger).
XTZ SUB 12.17 EDGE Gloss Black
XTZ SUB 12.17 EDGE Matte Black
 

paulst10

Distinguished Member
There's an SVS pc2000 in the classifieds for £500 and he's quite close to London :)
 

Bone9

Active Member
WOW! That is some FR graph. Is that with a small or large room?
Are you using an Antimode or Minidsp?
Thanks :D its a single monolith plus in a small room using a miniDSP 2x4 HD.
 

Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Monolith owners thread has new happy owners. Max output 20-80hz & extension wise it´s very similar to SVS PB1000, the Plus model isn´t likely going to change that as the driver is very similar than on normal model and wattages isn´t even doubling.


PB2000 is about ~5 db`s ahead of Mono at 20-80hz and around 7db at 16hz, it has lower port tuning and usable output under 20hz.

Can you point me to the data-sets showing any/all of the above? Not disputing it but I'd be interested in seeing a head-head like that with accompanying graphs.

Now that I think about it anyone could probably goto the shack link I provided earlier, eyeball the compression, convert that to burst(properly), then find the cea-2010(brent butterworth I think?) on the pb2000.

Tom V.
 

Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Can you point me to the data-sets showing any/all of the above? Not disputing it but I'd be interested in seeing a head-head like that with accompanying graphs.

Now that I think about it anyone could probably goto the shack link I provided earlier, eyeball the compression, convert that to burst(properly), then find the cea-2010(brent butterworth I think?) on the pb2000.

Tom V.

Mono from here: https://www.hometheatershack.com/fo...hived/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation.html

PB1000 data i got from SVS, which i shared with you earlier. I remember they are quite similar, SVS might have upper hand from 40hz upwards, but the M+ will have 1-2db more likely than normal Mono so at the end of day they are likely to perform more similar than not. Measured frequency response was quite similar on both (-3db at 19hz). The driver is very similar by specs on both Monos, so the only change would be in power output 300w rms (600w peak) -> 500w rms (1000w peak).

What puzzles me how SVS got so much performance out from smaller cabinet and 10" driver. Sure the driver is specially made for SVS by Peerless, so it`s not a shelf model. Also the Sledge amp is class-d and with DSP versus older AB-class on M+.

For PB2000 i used PC2000 data as it shows more down to 16hz.
SVS PC-2000 Cylinder Subwoofer Review Measurements and Analysis
 

JazAV

Standard Member
Monolith owners thread has new happy owners. Max output 20-80hz & extension wise it´s very similar to SVS PB1000, the Plus model isn´t likely going to change that as the driver is very similar than on normal model and wattages isn´t even doubling. SVS is cheaper unless you buy BK through their Ebay channel. You can call there and ask do they have black FF available as they don´t list every model. The price would be ~502£ +30£ shipping!
colosussxb | eBay


PB2000 is about ~5 db`s ahead of Mono at 20-80hz and around 7db at 16hz, it has lower port tuning and usable output under 20hz. PB2000 is little bit deeper, but otherwise similar sized to M+ FF.

Mono has one published review i know of. http://www.bkelec.com/HiFi/Sub_Woofers/Monolith Review.pdf

XTZ 12.17 Edge has ICEpower amp modules similar to what PSA uses, less chance of failure as they are known to be reliable. 5year amp warranty! The ability to tune it to your liking is nice. Sealed or vented and you can decide do you want to emphasize the "chest punch" range where this will outperform even PB2000 or the lower range (PB2000 has edge cause much larger).
XTZ SUB 12.17 EDGE Gloss Black
XTZ SUB 12.17 EDGE Matte Black

OK Gasp3621 has got me thinking again.

Would the Monolith Plus be just as good as the standard Monolith for low end bass down to 17hz? Or down that low would there be a clear difference? Remember, I would be going dual in a few months down the line so take into account the room size 4m x 3m (13ft x 10ft). Is the Plus version even worth it for me? What do you guys think? Standard Monolith vs Monolith Plus?

Can you point me to the data-sets showing any/all of the above? Not disputing it but I'd be interested in seeing a head-head like that with accompanying graphs.

Now that I think about it anyone could probably goto the shack link I provided earlier, eyeball the compression, convert that to burst(properly), then find the cea-2010(brent butterworth I think?) on the pb2000.

Tom V.

Also the data sets Tom @ PSA was referring to would also be greatly appreciated because why not? I have not exactly placed an order yet so I'm still open to suggestion.

Also forgive me if I have if I'm asking for something you may have already covered here. It's my first thread and I never imagined it would have garnered much interest. Thank you guys, again for you helping me out here.
 
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Gasp3621

Distinguished Member
Would the Monolith Plus be just as good as the standard Monolith for low end bass down to 17hz? Or down that low would there be a clear difference? Remember, I would be going dual in a few months down the line so take into account the room size 4m x 3m (13ft x 10ft). Is the Plus version even worth it for me? What do you guys think? Standard Monolith vs Monolith Plus?

Tom from BK isn´t writing here, only Tom V from PSA. :) Plus model has different driver (Eminence LAB12), but very similar spec wise and tad more beefier amp. You can call to BK and ask to chat with Tom, he can give you more information.

Notice the ebay link i posted you. BK`s official 2nd channel (click business details). They are new grade-b with full warranty without any marks (no member has ever found one and lot of members have ordered those). The basic Mono costs 480£ + shipping, so you get a new Mono Plus around ~503£ + 30£ shipping. But you have to call them and ask do they have any black (oak or satin) FF available. There seems to be white FF M+ listed and rest M+ are DF, but i have always pushed members to call there cause chances are high that they can get black M+ FF soon! Another option would be that there is basic Mono FF around 400£ + 30£ (grade-b).

This is the number for them: Phone:01702511900
 

Tom @ PSA

Well-known Member
AVForums Sponsor
Also, with regards to some of the linked data sets we need to remember those are 10+ years old now, some closer to 12-15? Anyway, there's been one heck of a lot of tech advances with both amps and woofers since. So it wouldn't be a shocker if the current monolith performance better than the model from circa 2005(?).

Tom V.
 

swiftpete

Distinguished Member
They come up used for about £250 all the time on the classifieds. They’re decent enough for the money. Obviously tou can buy or build better but you won’t struggle to sell them again for the same money when you upgrade.
 

JazAV

Standard Member
You are right, Tom. I'm sure driver improvements and amplifier improvements like a high pass filter have been introduced.
 

JazAV

Standard Member
So I found a BK Mono plus for £300. I know it could have been found cheaper if I waited but, it was now or never for me as the cash was there just for the sub. I will receive it on Sunday 17th March 2019 by a two man courier. Lets hope all goes well. I will try and keep this thread up to date for anyone still reading. I just hope it works perfectly. The lady whom I bought it from used it for her stereo system using the high level input only. Her stereo speakers are the Lnn Isobarik speakers. Rare and expensive but they already have great bass. The Mono Plus I'm getting was manufactured in 2016 and looks pristine in satin black and FF. I really don't think it's ever been pushed to it's limits though. Music doesn't really go that deep.

This sub will be replacing the poor little Elac S10 so now there will be 2 x 12"inch drivers only which should sound a lot better as the Elac distorts at higher SPL levels and lower octaves. One British sub (BK) paired with an American sub (Klipsch R-12SW). At some point I will replace the Klipsch, too but that thread is for another day. I got my MiniDSP 2x4 with the UMIK-1 ready to calibrate so I'll have some measurements up here soon, hopefully Sunday or Monday.
Is there anything that I forgot or I should be aware of when setting up the Mono Plus? According to my small brain, Phase set to 0, crossover set to LFE, gain set to 12 o'clock for first time calibration - any more or less than +1 or -1 and I will adjust gain accordingly and run Audyssey again until at +1 or -1, high level set to 0. Obviously I will be using RCA only. I have a Denon x2400h btw so it's Audyssey XT.

Fingers crossed for Sunday.
 
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