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Impressions of a Modded Vision One...WOW..

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Vince M, Jul 21, 2005.

  1. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Recently i purchased a Vidikron Vision One-which of course is Marquee 9500LC in a Pininfarina designed case.

    Though not really a cost effective excercise,I decided I wanted to see how good the Mike Parker mods-The VIM and neckboard mods et al-were.
    So I sent the unit to To Tim Martin in Arizona(Had the Tim Martin fan mod as well).

    Now I have always been a fan of the Marquee series and long advocated their quality-and was selling them- when others were quite dismissive of them.(No names mentioned :) )

    So I am very familiar with the pic. a Marquee can put out,8500LC`s,9500LC`s,Ultras etc..

    Now the claim is that the Mike Parker mods can increase blacks and shadow detail by 15%-20%..which to me is an astronomical difference and one I was quite dubious about.

    Well...set up the beastie yesterday.
    I looked at "Fellowship,Gladiator,Last Samurai and Fifth Element"-all well known from an evaluation point of view.

    The first thing I noticed was that the overall dynamic range seemed far better..blacks were indeed more black..and whites seemed crisper..but the big..big improvement for me was in the delineation of the greyscale,shadow details that I recall looking a tad muted on a "bog standard" 9500LC -again seemed to stand out more..It just ALL had so much more punch-but still that customary silky smooth moiseless appearance Marquees are famed for.
    When Mila takes her dive off the building in FE. its the best ive seen that scene look-It was almost holographic...it looked really clean with everything rendered perfectly.
    Gladiator looked to me..very very..close to how I had seen it look on a Cine 9 Recently-not the ultimate light output of course-but if anything a tad less noise in the image..

    But getting back to the blacks..watched the Saruman battle with Gandalf in the tower and to date..this was the best I have seen it look-It was almost stomach churning and pulled you right into the scene- :thumbsup:

    When i looked at Last Samurai I saw graduations within the cloud scenes(the final battle) I had never seen before on ANY Marquee .

    Now this Vision One did not have a red "C" element-so reds were not quite so red as with one,having said this having a red "c" element cuts down the light output of the red-and of course you have to bring the green and blue in line(or should)..the upshot of having a red "c" element is that you can lose upto 20% in overall light output.

    ..But do you know what? I think I prefer NOT having a red "c" element now with these Mike Parker mods..the standard reds looked more punchy to me and took that miniscule "orange" look away..In fact the reds looked great..possibly the better blacks darkened things a tad..just enough..so for me this was a great "compromise"..and no lost light output.

    Certainly ones eyes were being tricked into thinking there was more light output BECAUSE i guess of the better dynamic range.

    In fact..think a G90 picture without the "grain" but much better blacks..In short,it was absolutely awesome!!! whisper quiet because of the fan mods,Ultra LVPS.,.,.and sure the whizzy case..now I quite like the look of Marquees anyway but have always hated that horrible piece of two quid foam at the front..it spoils the whole thing-but many others have remarked on the industrial look of the Marquee and not liked it.

    In short -for me-this was what a Marquee could be/should be..Magnificent picture & Magnificent look!!

    Now what of the 15%-20% improvement claim? IS IT TRUE?

    ..I have to say.as mad as it sounds..quite possibly..what i can definately say being ultra picky,is that its at LEAST a 10% improvement in blacks and shadow presentation..but in the overall picture..the effect these facets are having on the colours,the dynamic etc..The claim I think is justified.

    Nevertheless,attempts to qualify a % improvement are almost always doomed to failure-what I can say is that its one BIG improvement.

    A lot has been said about the yanks in other threads..but these Mike Parker mods are -as they say-the real deal!

    In fact what i am going to find really hard now is going back to when I watch a "normal" Marquee pic..it has spoilt me without a doubt :rolleyes:

    **What im going to try and do in the next couple of weeks is take some screenshots -which though not effective at conveying whats actually happening on screen will give at least a taste.
     
  2. JimmytheSaint

    JimmytheSaint
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    Sounds awesome!
    Would be interested in seeing it in action, if at all possible, Vince!

    Regards

    Yas :)
     
  3. Welwynnick

    Welwynnick
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    I'll be standing in line!
    Bet you've been looking forwards to that for a while; it'll be difficult to let go.
    Might you do your own mini-event?
    Have you got another DVHS player yet?

    Cheers, Nick
     
  4. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Hi Guys,
    Yas/Nick, soon as its "in place" you guys are welcome to go see,Im also going to be having a few of the Visual Dynamics models-i reckon they will be pretty close-but i`ll reserve final judgement for the `mo. :smashin:

    Yes Nick..got another D-Theater player!!..now how long can I hold onto this one!!! :D

    Phhhewww..just got a cracking heads up on some G90`S...all under 500 hours..jeez where can I hire an aircraft hangar!!! :rolleyes:
     
  5. Vince M

    Vince M
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    ..Forgot to answer,yes Nick I would love to do a mini event..trouble is my stuff is never around long enough!!! :)

    ..But I have a good idea for something quite special..which I will hold back to show..Nick you may even be able to guess what i`m hinting at because your a bit of a "card",,

    The clue is above.. :) :)
     
  6. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Another % thread. :boring:
    Whilst I'm sure your projector is very impressive.
    Can we have some figures and facts to back these % figures up.

    You are lets have the graph show us where these increses are happening. To incease the detail in an area of the picture it must have a section of the gamma lifted

    Why on earth would sombody retube a Vision One without replacing the red filter they were fitted as standard to a new machine.? This was one of the key features (apart from the fancy case) to make this beast an improvement on a standard Electohome. But now you have an oddball because just filtering the green will reduce the light output on that channel and you will have to lower the red and blue to compensate giving you better greens but a lower output.
    For the Extra £100 should you not pull the green filter out and improve the light output? or better still put a red filter in and get the proper performance.
     
  7. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Roland,
    I didnt say it was retubed-or make the % claim,I am just giving my opinions of it.

    Standard Marquee 9500`s did NOT have a red "c" element-so the light output was balanced,To reitterate what I said above,Tims views were that putting a red "c" element in the mix meant you had to balance the green and blue-and hence lose light output-this is his view.

    My post is an impression-but Im sure if you want graphs et all-contact Tim and he would be glad to oblige. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    It seemed odd to me that the red filter was missing on this unit. Either the tube has been replaced. Or someone took the red filter out. Because fitting the filters and changing the software was one of the ugrades Vidikron did.
     
  9. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Not odd at all,possibly the red was taken off to increase light output and things brought back into line -a la Marquee 9500LC..but no big deal to get a red "c" element if someone wanted one-I chose not to.

    I am not convinced there was a red "c" element to start with-maybe on the Vision One X,here is a quote from Robert Zuch of Reference imaging;-

    Our modifications usually do not include filtering of the red tube as most of our systems use an upconverter that performs the color correction. This allows the color correction to be performed without reducing the projector’s light output.

    Essentially what it comes down to is this;- Have the red "c" element-have a miniscule improvement(I wont "guess" a %,in case a contract is taken out on me :smashin: )-but lose output.

    Or dont and have more light output.

    There have been many variations on a theme,Madrigal MP9,Vision One,One X,Cine pro x,Crystal image etc..etc..
    Some have red filters ..some dont..

    Ultimately its a matter of choice.someone may buy a Marquee 9500 with a red filter put on and elect to take it off-so what?

    One of my points in my first post was that I thought the Vision I had with Mike Parker mods was a good compromise.

    (**Of course the Vision One didnt have Mike Parker mods at inception either.)


    I would also like to mention that to have a stab at quantifying a noted improvement-or not-is not a crime,merely an attempt to convey what is being seen.
    Bizzarely,I am one of those that would rather describe what I see-sometimes employing an emotive response to what I see.
    Trying to convey a nuance-or a perception even-is tricky with a graph-sure some seriously analytical may say;-"If it cant be proven is it true?"

    To them,i say -with no disrespect-believe what you like-I am just relaying what I saw-to me thats no less real because theres not a Bl**dy graph to prove it! :rolleyes:

    But..IF you doubt what I saw-then dont shoot the messanger:smashin: -get onto Tim Martin and ask HIM to send you lots of little graphs!

    I must point out though that they would be completely meaningless without a Vision One in front of you -to check the graphs... :smashin:

    To me,nothing beats real experience! :)
     
  10. crteaman

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    For what its worth Vidikron did not fit the red 'c' element to the vision 1, hope this has helped to clear up this point guy's.

    In fact only one company fitted the red 'c' as standard to their unit based on the 9500 ultra and that was.........anyone want to guess before I tell?

    Reference imaging did indeed decide to build their unit without either red or green 'c' elements choosing to use a custom programme for the Teranex cinema mx upconverter
    to correct the primary colours (or should that be colors?)

    james
     
  11. 008

    008
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    I asked Tim about this red "c" issue

    "9500lcs and Vision ones did NOT have fitted as standard"

    M9s do
     
  12. 008

    008
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    James, you beat me by one minute !
     
  13. crteaman

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    Lee well done mate you are correct the Mp9 was indeed the only unit to have them as a standard fitment, not sure if its case and red 'c' made it worth £59.995 uk pounds in 2001 though.

    So as you can all se I am indeed a stickler for datial...sometimes, mostly when I deem it important.

    Lee your prize is, er hmmm well ;) perhaps a reduced rate install one day.

    james


    Actually must do that some time a little movie competition, with perhaps a prize of me free for the day to get all I can out of your crt,
     
  14. Gary Lightfoot

    Gary Lightfoot
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    Movie competition sounds fun - do terms and conditions apply? :)

    Gary.
     
  15. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    :oops: :

    Vince My appolgies

    I will not post before checking my facts
    I will not post before checking my facts
    I will not post before checking my facts
    I will not post before checking my facts
    I will not post before.....

    :suicide: :suicide:
     
  16. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Roland,
    No apologies needed mate! :)

    This is what its all about,to discuss crt,I didnt think the Vision One had a red c element to start with but wasnt 100%(oops sorry..)..strike that :D

    Thanks to James and Lee for clearing that up. :smashin:
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Can I just add about the Terranex colour correction. It didn't correct primary colours. What it would do is the following. You would tell it the cie co-ordinates of the primaries so it could work out the available gamut. It would then remap the colourspace so that only the colours where the projectors gamut and the EBU/SMPTE gamut target overlapped were shown. So the colours on screen were accurate within the available gamut of thhe PJ. This is not the same as filtering the primaries. Chris Stephens likes light output....an even more accurate solution may have been to filter AND use the processing of the Terranex as well. At least that is my understanding.

    Gordon
     
  18. crteaman

    crteaman
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    Quite right, none of us are correct 100% :D of the time, and we should all be here to help one another, after all we are all doing nearly the exact same thing, and no doubt we all have different strengths and weaknesses.

    Yes that is just what thet done with the reference/teranex combo Gordon.

    As I mentioned elsewhere, Chris achieved over 19FL with this unfiltered combo, however Tom Norton found it too fatiguing and prefered to throttle it back to 12.5-15FL where he found the image looked a little sharper, which of course it would, by not driving the phosphor close to saturation.

    As you say Gordon Chris liked raw light output, but Sam Runco, Joel silver and Joe kane, prefered accurate colours over light output, of course both might be good :smashin:

    A scaler can't truly alter to colour's of a phosphor in the way a 'c' element does, Gordon have you still got that Teranex laying around in your shed? :lease: jeez I can hear the stampede heading for Scotland as I type...... just kidding guy's in case you all ring Gordons phone off the hook.

    james
     
  19. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I can see the deal,Buy 3 Lumagens and get a free Terranex..yeah i`ll go for that!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
     
  20. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I wouldn't want anyone to burdened with the Terranex....the guy in UK who I know had a demo...or two, of it...chooses to use a Lumagen HDP Pro.....just now.....

    Gordon
     
  21. crteaman

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    I'm guessing it was down to it making the same amount of noise as Concorde during full thrust? :D


    james
     
  22. Vince M

    Vince M
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    I Would like to see a Cine pro X with a Terranex though..maybe build a hush box for the Terranex :rolleyes:..

    ..I tell you what though..the more I look at this Vision One the more convinced I am to get one for myself..It is a thing of beauty thats for sure!! :smashin: ..Whats really great is the size..seems far smaller obviously than the Cine 9 and G90..

    I dont know if I would go for one on an Ultra chassis or not..either way great though!! :thumbsup:
     
  23. Vince M

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    In response to a few questions Ive had re;-fan mod...the two fans were changed behind where the ACON goes for 93mm Papst-and it was whisper quiet,In the Visual Dynamics models im dealing with now,Im looking to change ALL the fans for the ultimate in silent viewing.

    Having said this,with just the two changed It was way good enough..jeez nearly tempted to use a %.. :D :D
     
  24. Vince M

    Vince M
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    Heres a couple of the pics of the Vision One now residing in situ,the owner is a lovely guy,very knowledgable of crt-having previously setup a Sony 1292 from scratch..does his own custom mounts and they are excellent!!!

    Anyway..heres the pics..hoping to get some screenshots soon,but if the prelim screenshot -and the pics not fine tuned yet-is anything to go by...double wow!!

    You may ask..could it drift on a pole arrangement? Not on this one..my customer has used aircraft steel plate-you would need to hit this with a rocket launcher to move it!!! It has been adapted for the Marquee after having been very succesful in holding a 1292.
     

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  25. Vince M

    Vince M
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    This is the prelim screenshot I spoke of,this is BEFORE any mag focus or point conv.adjustments..a lot of the fine detail has been lost in resizing the pic down for here-but it gives you a little taster! :smashin:
     

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