1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Image retention

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by blasthand, Sep 18, 2005.

  1. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    Had my 42pv500 for a wee while now, ran it in contrast/brightness etc etc, everything swell - couldn't be happier....and then I left it on sky sports news on Saturday for around 3 hours for the soccer special (when the graphics on the r/h side don't disappear during the ads) and discovered it had retained the image of these graphics. It's gone now, but I was wondering if you've had the retention once will the set be more susceptible to retention of the same graphics again in the future? We don't want to ruin our preciousss now after all do we my love... :)

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  2. Not A Clue

    Not A Clue
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    did you run it in for the full 200 hours ?

    This is the 3rd pv500 owner who has stated they had some form of image retention on this forum in recent weeks - haven't heard anything from 42pe50 owners...if you're the latter have suffered do let us know !
     
  3. Lionheart

    Lionheart
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sounds like the TV's phophors have equalized, (Edward Woodward I think) ie the less aged ones have caught up with the imaged ones so you are back on track :)
     
  4. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Lionheart,

    Cheers for that - except the grim pun about that awful show :)

    Not A Clue: Sure did run it in...and even after this when I ran my setup disk the contrast and brightness were lowered further (about 40% on the run-in period)

    What I would like to know now is if the set will be more susceptible to retention from the same image that caused it in the first place...??

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  5. Lionheart

    Lionheart
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    lol im glad you enjoyed the pun...I have the same Tv as u..have had it about 3 months and running a Telewest box through it...so far (touching wood, my head comes in handy lol) no image retention with logo stuff (if only they would stop it, another hot topic lol)...hoping yours will be the same now..would hate to put my neck on the line and say u wont get it again from that logo though, if it were me...id avoid it for a lil while or zoom it until everything ages a bit more...just my 2 pennies worth
     
  6. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Well,

    Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water...

    Watched eurosport2 for approx 1/2hr this evening...and when I changed channels I had the retention of their logo. Gutted! It went after approx an hr or so but now completely paranoid about ruining my display...can I ever watch motogp again??? :eek:

    Feeling somewhat deflated as I write this because the set is superb otherwise. I took all the precautions running it in, and here I am having had image retention twice in a matter of days on the same(ish) area of the screen...getting worried this could manifest into permanent screen-burn if it keeps happening.

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  7. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2001
    Messages:
    8,735
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +626
    What are your settings?

    have you run a test dvd to check contrast? even a THX dvd?

    You can even do it with Sky, first go to the picture settings on the sky box and make sure the contrast is set to low before you start. Now go into the TV guide menu and look at the white text.
    Go into your plasma picture settings and put it to CINEMA mode and make sure colour temp is normal.
    Turn the white level (contrast) down on your screen until the white text no longer looks white, then knock it back up a touch till it does. Probably find it round the 35% mark, maybe even lower.
    Then put on an image with black bars at the top and bottom, stand next to the screen, can you see green lit pixels or any noise in the black bars? If yeah turn the black level (brightnes) down uptil they disapear and the black bars look solid. This is as balck as your screen will go so don't go any lower as you will just crush details.

    With the colour I would just put the sky banner up and turn it down till it is no longer blooming, so all the text looks solid and there is no bleed especially on the blue, usually around 40%ish.

    As your screen beds in you will probably find you need to knock the contrast up a little, but not much.
     
  8. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    The set is on about 7 hrs a day most days, and I left it on the run-in settings for about 3 weeks (certainly no less), used cinema mode for both TV and dvd's, the contrast and brightness were set to approx 40-45% as I recall during this time, which was rougly 150hrs. After this (about 3 weeks ago) I ran my setup disc;
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos...8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-7779482-9759634

    which left the contrast at around 35% and the brightness at 40%. At this time I still had the colour management set to warm. Since gizlarocs reply I've run the setup again, tweaked the contrast & brightness very slightly, and set the colour management to normal. Black bars are solid, with no noise/green pixels. (I think the picture is superb :thumbsup: )

    I didn't think I would have had any issues with the setup as it was, and it's been fine up until last Saturday when I left the skysports news channel running for 3-4hrs and saw retention afterwards. Since then I've had the retention as mentioned of the eurosport logo after 1/2hr of viewing the channel, and tonight I also had some after watching some football for approx 20mins. The the last two faded relatively quickly but I'm just concerned a touch.

    Whilst most channels these days have the damn logos and whatever else on the screen, I'm only seeing the retention from static images being displayed in the top right, but not elsewhere. I can't help but think the retention which occured last Saturday has maybe slightly damaged the screen in that top-right area (time to learn how the plasma operates I think so I understand a bit more :) )

    Naturally I don't want to ruin the set, but at the same time I'd pay good money to be re-assured as to why it's started occuring in one area, and whether or not I'm going to see screen-burn as a result eventually...Or, is the set faulty in some way, taking everything into consideration?

    Cheers for reading (sorry it dragged a bit... :) )
    Mark.
     
  9. Lionheart

    Lionheart
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi again Mark...so sorry to hear about your problems with all this. I wish the damn tv companies would stop this awful logo business once and for all or at the very least move the bloody things around the screen every now and then, it all smacks of arrogance to me on their part. I wonder if it's worth a chat with Panasonic about it explaining that its only happening on one part of your screen and see if they can give any guidence (possibly they might say there is a fault which sure would help going for a swap). I believe that Panasonic rate these tvs as no more suseptable to image retention than CRT so checking with them could well be worth it....hope you sort it
     
  10. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    Spoke to Panasonic today and they basically used that crappy get-out saying the retention is not covered by the warranty. What a crock! They also said it will lead to screen-burn eventually and that I was lucky I'd got away with it so far, and to avoid the channels causing it. Yeah, right - pretty much says I can't use it as a T.V in this day and age!

    To say I'm furious would be an under-statement. I took every precaution known to man with regard to this set...not once has it been left on dynamic mode with the contrast and brightness levels set high, and now I have a set I can't use without the risk of ruining not...not a happy bunny. Do I have an item that is not fit for the purpose it was designed for? Is there any recourse under the Sale of goods act etc...??

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  11. kamaran

    kamaran
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2002
    Messages:
    688
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +24
    Sounds like you very obviously do.

    On a bigger point, you have done your research and run the plasma in etc etc. If you go to any comet/Curry's approx 40% of the tv's on show are plasma which makes it very mainstream.

    Mr & Mrs joe Public arent going to know about 'screen burn' and 'run in'. Surely in a few months Panasonic are going to be bombarded with Screen Burn problems and will either have to wise up or face awful press.
     
  12. avanzato

    avanzato
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,879
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Norfolk
    Ratings:
    +60
    I get some image retention on my LG but it always goes away within a few minutes when the screen is used.

    Probably time to link to the Pioneer Plasma 'Screen Burn' PDF here

    IMO there's a lot of FUD spread about screen burn on plasmas but it's a well know 'problem' and if you're worried then an LCD would be a better choice. Of course then you have to put up with the 'problems' they suffer from instead.
    Just try to enjoy the TV without worrying.

    After all it'll be obsolete and half the price in six months anyway.
     
  13. Not A Clue

    Not A Clue
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0

    Its funny that panny released a white paper in 2004 saying their plasmas were built so screenburn wouldn't occur then when i got my pe50 yesterday i saw the big arse coverer in there manual...running along the lines of this plasma is not designed to display statics images for prolonged period of times (e.g. logos)...

    ...i bet there must be some kind of legal recourse available
     
  14. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    Last night I sat down and read the Panasonic white Paper; "Plasma Facts and Myths - Panasonic Presents Advice From The Video Purist Perspective". Here's the section on plasma break-in...

    ------------------------

    When the plasma is initially installed, videophiles say it is best to do the following:

    Make sure the display is in a viewing mode (aspect ration) that completely fills the screen (there are often three or more settings from which to choose). Tha panel is shipped in this condition, in what is called the "Just" mode.

    Turn down the picture control (contrast) to 50% or less

    Briefly engage the 4:3 mode to confirm the side bars are set to mid-grey (there is usually an adjustment in the Set-up menu that takes the sidebars from black to grey) to minimise the chance of burn-in

    Return the set to a "full-screen" (Just, Zoom, Full) position during the first hundred hours of use

    During the first hundred hours of use it is best not to view the same channel for extended periods. This should prevent channel logos and other fixed images found on some channels from being retained

    Avoid any static images (video games, computer images, DVD title screens, etc) during the hundred-hour break-in

    After the hundred-hour break-in period, during the next nine-hundred hours:

    Continue to retain the picture setting at 50% or less

    Limit the use of 4:3 aspect ratio mode (traditional picture size that does not fill the entire screen) to 15% of viewing time

    Limit the use of static images (computer, video games, etc) to less than 10% of the viewing time

    After one thousand viewing hours, panels are much less likely to experience image burn in.

    ----------------------------------

    Man alive - 1,000 hours to run it in according to Panasonic then. Doesn't help with the fact that I now see image retention on the top right of my display (having take the right steps according to Panasonic as far as I can tell) if I have a channel logo there for 10 minutes (which is how long it took last night - of course I'm waiting for it to happen everytime I view a channel with a logo now...ergo I'm looking harder etc)

    Also had a look at the sale of goods act - but I suspect that If I write to Panasonic stating this they'll just refer to the whitepaper and the 1,000 hours run-in time.

    Running the set in zoom 3 mode does remove most logos, but of course..."it just don't feel right Ma!" :)

    I've pretty much decided to literally avoid any channels with logos as much as I can....and if I do watch them then I'll run it in the zoom 3 mode (eurosport - motogp etc). Better that than a set that just retains images all the time.

    On the plus side (also from the paper):

    What to do if you see a ghost image on the screen;
    In the rare event you begin to see a ghost image on the display, Panasonic has incorporated a built-in "white-bar scroll" feature to assist you. When enabled, the scroll will (in many cases) reduce or eliminate image retention. Consult Panasonic customer service for any technical support issues...

    Cheers for reading,
    Mark.
     
  15. Lionheart

    Lionheart
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi again Mark....sounds like Panasonic is trying to cover its ass with the one thousand hours and in anycase chances are you dont have your set on high anyway. Also I would have thought that for the white paper to be relevant under the Sale of goods act it would have come with the set, not everyone has access to the internet of course.....Panasonic certainly dont mention 1000hrs run in in there instruction book...infact nothing about running the set in at all just a bit about not displaying static images to long (another rear protector). I wonder why some people get this and some dont....and what has been the biggest cause....is a sky box more likely to cause it than say a cable box (ok I know that could be a silly idea). I would say 1000 hrs has to be a good years worth of normal viewing...seems daft that we should have to be careful for so long....hope this turns out well Mark and you keep us pv500 owners posted on how you get on
     
  16. Not A Clue

    Not A Clue
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    have you tried the white bar scroll?

    the paper i read by panasonic said "1000 hrs as recommended by videophiles" - this was applicable to all plasmas and panasonic did not say it was their recommendation

    in fact in the manual i have seen nothing about run it times - the gits :mad:

    On btw there does seem to be a problem with the pv500's - theres been about 6 ppl on here who have said they have had screen burn - yet pe50 owners swear blind their sets are fine :confused:

    Rumour going around that given this problem panny are sorting out the issue on the next batch - hence the delay in getting stock to customers - if i were you i'd keep on the back of the seller
     
  17. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    Just wanted to say cheers to everyone that's posted their advice/good wishes etc with regard to getting this sorted.

    Tomorrow I shall be composing a letter/email to send to the supplier of my set. In it I shall state (very civilly of course :) ) all the facts, and the problems I now have, and also that under the sale of goods act the item I have is not fit for the use it was supplied for, and that I'd like a replacement. (Anyone think this "isn't" the right thing to do?) If it's possible I'll try and post it on the thread as an attachment.

    Cheers,
    Mark
     
  18. Badger0-0

    Badger0-0
    Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,582
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Spaghetti Junction (really)
    Ratings:
    +1,921
    I'd say that if you have used all best advice and practises, you have grounds for a complaint.
    It (to my mind) is obviously not fit for what you bought it for.

    But I'm not a legal person.

    The words "class action" keep entering my head.

    It strikes me that the disclaimers are unfair, in that burn is totally random and not in the user's hands, ie a fault in the technology.

    Might be worth a few of you clubbing together???
     
  19. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    I have sent an email request to Panasonic UK today via their website asking them for informaition on running the "white-bar scroll", which, according to the white paper should (hopefully) eliminate the retention I've been seeing. I'll keep the thread updated on whether or not it works. If it does, all well and good, and I'll put the details up on how to access/run it. If it doesn't do the trick then I'll put together the letter to the supplier of the screen with regard to the sale of goods act etc etc...

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  20. vince31

    vince31
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    139
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Swindon
    Ratings:
    +13
    I've been reading up on all the screen burn issues on various threads just to make sure I take all the precautions I can with my new screen. Did you try the "White bar Scroll" thing and did it have any effect? In my understanding it is the phosphor that needs to age in each pixel until it reaches a more stable (used) condition, probably after about 1000 hrs if the white paper is anything to go by. In that case, I think you could artificially speed up this ageing process safely and possibly get rid of any image retention by setting the contrast and brightness to full 100% for the period of the "White Bar Scroll" function. This should have the effect of running all the pixels at max intensity allowing all the pixels to age faster whilst all being at the same intensity, therefore equalising out and eliminating any image retention.

    I'm not saying you should blindly go ahead and do it, its just a proposal, what do any others out there think, any experts want to give their opinion? :confused:
     
  21. chedmaster

    chedmaster
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2005
    Messages:
    2,654
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Ratings:
    +28
    i wouldnt risk it, if the panel isnt calibrated perfectly, the intensity of green for example may not be at quite 100% so it wouldnt age at the same rate as the Red and Blue phosphors. Playing a dvd on repeat is a much safer option (full screen of course). The PV500's seem to be very susceptible to Image Retention, but I'm yet to see/hear about one with full on Burn.
     
  22. vince31

    vince31
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    139
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Swindon
    Ratings:
    +13
    Thanks for the expert opinion, your explanation seems perfectly reasonable and I respect your advice.
     
  23. MAT365

    MAT365
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    In respect to the pansonic white paper, I believe the reference to the 1000 hours burn in is related to the transition from inverse square degradation to a linear degradation of light output.

    My point is that any screen burn/image retention generated at less than 1000 hours, should dissipate quicker than screen burn/image retention generated at at a operating life greater than 1000 hours (which is much more unlikely to happen anyway). So the good news is that in theory the image retention problems you are seeing today should get less likely in the future.

    When comparing the PV500 to the PE50 it should be perhaps pointed out the the amount of active area of the PV500 is signifantly lower compared to the PE50, this is as a result of the additional area of pixel side walls and a emission scaling problem with small pixel cells. This results in a fundamentally dimmer panel which needs to be driven harder
    This will have an impact when comparing the image retention risk of the two panels.
     
  24. Not A Clue

    Not A Clue
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    You should be able to access the white bar scroll through the screen saver menu (haven't used my 42pe50 for more than 10mins as moving house but have a look in the manual)
    -----------------
    Enhanced Screen Saver Functions
    A variety of screen saver functions help minimize the risk of uneven phosphor aging. You can also use the timer to set the screen saver operating cycles, operating time, and start and stop times. This lets you make settings that match your application.

    *
    White Bar Scroll: White bars move across the screen from left to right at regular intervals. Good for ordinary still-image displays.
    *
    Screen Reversal: Displays images with the black and white reversed. Good for text displays.
    *
    Side Panel Adjustment: Brightens the black bands on the sides of the screen when displaying images in the 4:3 format.
    *
    Wobbling: Shifts the image’s position by several pixels at fixed time intervals.
    *
    Peak Limit Mode: Lowers the peak brightness level (image contrast) by 30%.
     
  25. jtf

    jtf
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    220
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    colchester
    Ratings:
    +7
    had my pv500 for about 3 months and it has been carefully run in but after 3 hours of cebeebies i now have a nice image retention in the top right of the screen. not happy
     
  26. tscotsman

    tscotsman
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2004
    Messages:
    848
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +15
    is this permanent or do you mean retention temporarily?
     
  27. blasthand

    blasthand
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2004
    Messages:
    242
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Yateley, Hampshire
    Ratings:
    +11
    Hi All,

    jtf: I know exactly how you feel as you can see from the start of the thread.

    Not A Clue: I can't find anything in the manual re the white-bar scroll...will just have to wait for Panasonic to get back to me with the details I guess. As I said - once I have the info I'll post it up.

    Cheers,
    Mark.
     
  28. jtf

    jtf
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2004
    Messages:
    220
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    colchester
    Ratings:
    +7
    the image is there constantly and has been all afternoon tried fast moving scenes on dvds to try and shift it but no joy. the shop is going to get a visit tommorrow
     
  29. Demon

    Demon
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2000
    Messages:
    954
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Ratings:
    +57
    I went for the Hitachi 7200 because of the issues posted about the Panny and screen burn.

    I have not had any issues so far (touch wood), the little one does have cbeebies on for a couple of hours a day and the hitachi seems fine......

    The Brightness and contrast is down though.


    Its seems that there are pro's and cons for every Set, Such is life.....


    Most of the logo's are opaque so this should help, bad channels are the disney channel with the micky mouse ears, and any with the red dot that is displayed......

    Although the red dot can be removed automatically now via the menu it will not remove the logos from the broadcast imposed images....

    We should all get onto sky and get them to remove these logo's....

    They expect us to pay ££££ for new HD panels etc for the new SKY HD etc and must know about the screen burn issues so SKY need to take some responsibility and give you at least the option of removing them....

    I thinks its also down to the Manufacturers to Warn people with a harsh warning about screen burn and wake them upto the reality that there new 2k+ Panel can be damaged beyond repair.....

    Can we get a pole going So we can judge if its worth getting SKY Involved and finding out if they are prepared to do there part in help protect our New Panels.....


    Its not just Plasma's though, the cbeebies logo manages to burn my old RDP set......

    Since then they have made them opaque but its still an issue......

    Come on SKY if you want or hard earned cash for the NEW SKY HD, then the logo's have to go...... :lease:
     
  30. Not A Clue

    Not A Clue
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    be careful with the hitachi - from what I heard & seen that is more susceptible to burn then the PV500

    its bull really - pay that much and then worry about what can be watched

    i hope my 42PE50 doesn't burn - i'll be gutted and probably wouldn't buy such a set again until screenburn disclaimers come out the manual
     

Share This Page

Loading...