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illegal you're joking ?!?!?!?!

Discussion in 'Nintendo Forums' started by MrBlofeldt, Jan 19, 2005.

  1. MrBlofeldt

    MrBlofeldt
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    :confused:

    What unbelievable, ridiculous, Dickensian law allows a company to make it illegal to pull apart a product and change it's function, surely the consumer has the right to do anything they want with said product once purchased, for example if I wanted to go into a shop and buy an umbrella, pull the top of it strap it to my left buttock and pretend its a saxophone I should be permitted this right.

    in addition, I hope the moderators don't remove this, this is hopefuly the beginnings of a discussion on ethics..

    thanks !
     
  2. H4r7y

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    might be a good idea to state which product you are talking about.
    ive a funny feeling its the ps2. and lets be honest, theres not a huge amount that can be done thats not illegal with a modded ps2 apart from run illegal software on it.
     
  3. kelvin

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    I agree with H4r7y,

    Assuming you are talking about the PS2 (can't see what else you could be talking about), there really isn't a lot more you can do with it once chipped other than play illegally copied games. Yes it also allows you to play your own "backups" but let's be honest, that's not what the majority of individuals do...

    As for this thread - by all means discuss the "ethics" of copying but please ensure that you post in accordance with the rules. The thread will be locked immediately if it degenerates the way others on this topic have in the past :)

    K.
     
  4. nero0410

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    Ummm....Also is it not 'legal' to chip a console purely to play games imported from somewhere like lik-sang, as they sell original import games. There are also various import game specialists, surley if you have one chipped purely just to play import games that should be ok (hence the freeloader for the gamecube).

    Copied games let everybody down as they seem to be the excuse for all games being priced so high for so many years.

    EDIT: This would be usful for games that are never going to be released over there, as there were many for the ps1 that I imported at one time long ago. The first parasite eve for example and some dragon quest games.

    tris
     
  5. Seth Gecko

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    Well let's face it - with Xbox or PS2, once chipped you can basically - play copied games, play any original imported game and....... ermmmmmmm well you can errrrrrrrrrr take over the world ? :)

    Microsoft don't want you chipping your console to play copies, install games to your (newly installed 120gb+) hard disk, so they make matters worse by not allowing you to participate on Xbox Live! I'd much rather buy a game, install it to my hard disk, pop it back in the case for safe keeping and play it at much faster load speeds - but nope, that's not on!

    At least with Nintendo you know off the bat you can't copy their disks - that's not saying there's no mechanism around it, just means that if you want to copy their games, you've got to be more inventive and patient.

    Technically if you pull anything apart - you invalidate your warranty. Can you imagine being hauled in front of a judge ?

    "Charged with adding a mod chip to a PS2"
    "I only did it to play the new Resident Evil from Japan"

    Anyway isn't that the same kinda thing when it was Nintendo vs Codemasters over the cheat cartridge? That it's use modified their hardware/software ? Ok - I may have got that wrong (I can't honestly remember) but it is pretty sad the state of things today........
     
  6. H4r7y

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    i understand what your saying nero, but unfortunately i just dont think theres enough people out there that would make it a viable reason to let the ps2 be modded without it being illegal.
    and there must be reasons why sony want us to get games later than the rest of the world.
    and sony being sony can pretty much do what they like with the own franchise and rightly so in my opinion due to whats been said previously, there just isnt any sort of real benefit other than to play illegal material, apart from the few people in the point youve raised.
     
  7. H4r7y

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    theres plenty more you can do with a modded xbox, i wont list them all but alot of people on this forum have a modded one to let them take advantage of the better picture quality on their displays etc. or to have a juke box of media under the TV, this is why i got mine modded. to play dvd's and to store my cd collection on
    :)
     
  8. kelvin

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    My apologies, i'd overlooked the option of playing imported games... fair point :)

    With regards to the comments on chipped Xbox's, granted you *can* do the same as you can with a modded PS2, but you can also do a whole lot more (legitimately I might add) - H4r7y has listed just a couple. On that basis alone you have to view modified xbox's in a slightly different light - it's certainly the case that the courts have to.

    It's also worth mentioning that Sony aren't prohibiting you from doing what you want, with what you have legitimately purchased - the "illegality" of PS2 chips is in relation to their use for commercial gain (i.e. selling).

    I'd encourage you to have a quick read through my comments in this thread which explain the stance on PS2 modifications from a legal point of view. They are not illegal per se...

    Kelvin.
     
  9. Seth Gecko

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    H4r7y, I am fully aware of that - hence my comment used the word "Basically" - and then I also pointed out about installing games to your Hard Disk that you've just fitted. I hate sounding defensive, but yes you can install Linux, have a far superior display mode (although I did think CD ripping was part of the system - not that I have, or would use it), play DVD's of any region, play Divx and AVI files - I mean let's face it, the Xbox is basically a PC in a box. I think you'll find that the MAIN reason for mods on both consoles is to play copied/import/backup games. The Xbox just has additional things going for it - due to it's architecture. Sorry if I wasn't giving props to the additional things it can do - but I thought I'd touched on that subject originally. :oops:
     
  10. MrBlofeldt

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    Surely this rule on making mod chips illegal is unworkable, i.e I would have thought that the mod chip would basically be some kind of eeprom that was blown with code in an eeprom programmer, if these chips are freely available from their manufacturers in much the same way as the mod chips were for the PS1, then this is infringing on their right to make money...

    ...That would mean that the code that is written to the eeprom is illegal, but how can you make a piece of software illegal ? although I suppose they would class it under virus writing or something...

    I would just like to point out I know nothing of the details of PS2 modding chips, I'm just speculating !
     
  11. Rob20

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    If you had a 200GB HDD modded XBox, surely the temptation to hire games out and copy them would be too great? Even if you were to buy games, you'd then be able to copy them before selling the origianal. Just look at how popular free music downloads have been? No wonder Microsoft is unhappy about the modding scene.
     
  12. nero0410

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    and there must be reasons why sony want us to get games later than the rest of the world.

    Sony, microsoft and the rest of the developers out there. I beleive I can answer this one to a certain extent.

    1.They need to be recoded into english, if they were in say: japenese (dont think we'd get very far)

    2.Obviously they have to be recoded in general anyway to be able to play on a pal machine

    3.They are :censored: 's somtimes as so many games dont even seem to make it over here.

    4.(more of a benefit this one: They also like to get customer feedback every time they release a game, so they can flatten out any bugs. This is a good thing in our case as first japan, bug flattening, america, more bug flattening, then UK, flattened bugs and improved version. (unfortunately not good somtimes here though, as chunks of cgi or levels could have been chopped out, which looking at it at that point of view leaves us with leftovers :( )

    Anyway, I have had chipped psx, ps2 and xbox. Yes I have used 'backup' games before, I grew out of that and destroyed the back ups and the consoles :eek: Yep quite mad.

    I have for years now just been buying/using original meda for all consoles, movies the lot. I appriciate it a whole lot more owning the original, and have built quite a collection now.

    I think it would be nice for the companies to release games and the new consoles, handhelds, at the same time worldwide. Then none of us would have to chip them for importing games (and of coarse having a side effect of being able to play 'backups').

    However a lot of families are having to put up with buying 1 game every 3-4 months, simply because they are priced far too high. All these 'backups' going around should stop completely, games, films etc.... should be released at the same time worldwide in order for the prices to come down. Then thinking about that if all the copying did stop, the companies are so used to the money they are getting, they'll just come up with yet another excuse why games are going to stay the price they are.

    If they released games and actually sold them for say: £20 as a release price, A lot more people would be able to afford to buy more games, and they would buy them about 3 times as much as they do now. I know I would! In theory then all these companies would effectively be making more money than they make selling them at £40 a pop.

    I'm gonna stop now, cos I'lll admit I'm like an old woman and I will go on forever moaning. :laugh:

    tris
     
  13. AML

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    Personaly I feel that the only reason machines (ps2, xbox and such ) are regioneised is for the same reason DVD players and movies are.

    The makers want you to buy the game/movie in the country you live in. Not because they want to deprive you of a particular game from another country but because each country has its own market and its own branch of each company and they need to get paid!

    If we all bought games from a single country (lets say japan) what would happen to Nintendo UK or XBox UK or Sony UK?

    They might close down those branches and all those people would loose their jobs.

    Not only that but it would affect the countries economy as all that money would go to Japan instead of your country.

    Finaly there can never be a guarantee for an imported product. IF you have any problems its too hard to send back.

    This is why there are local branches of foreign companies in the first place.

    One other thing, a lot of jap games that are release will never make it to the UK simply becase you wouldnt be able to play them. For language reasons and for cultural reasons.
     
  14. eviljohn2

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    New Amiga releases in the early 90's were only £20. But then again, budget games were only about £7. I bought far more games back then, even though it was possible to copy the discs I don't really know anyone that did although the risk of corruption was much greater on 3.5" discs. :)
     
  15. Azrikam

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    AML, don't forget that region-coding also allows the studios (game and movie) to legally price fix. Why do you think games are so expensive in this country, when we can import the same game for significantly cheaper from overseas? They do it for the same reason that it costs more to hire a car in the US if you're calling from the UK than if you're calling from Canada. They do it because they can get away with it.

    Something will really have to be done legislatively to sort out this kind of thing. The law needs to nail down the fact that "potential" to break the law doesn't amount to breaking the law. Just because installing a mod chip allows someone to play pirated games on a console doesn't guarantee that they will do that. Owning a computer and an internet connection gives anyone the "potential" to download child pornography. That doesn't mean they are going to do it.

    Take a look at this article from Slashdot:
    Jailtime for P2P Developers
    So here we've got legislators (no doubt egged on by big business) trying to make it a criminal offence just to develop software that could potentially infringe copyright. HTTP, FTP, Fax Machines, Photocopiers, P2P, and even modelling clay offer the "potential" to infringe copyright. But they also have legitimate purposes.

    You cannot eliminate the potential for copyright infringement without plunging the world into the dark ages. The real question is just how far should copyright owners be allowed to go to reduce this potential.
     
  16. dynamic turtle

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    Hence why Nintendo sell about a quarter of consoles as Sony & MS do!

    Also, why isn't car modification illegal? Surely there's nothing legal you can do with a twin-turbo Nissan Micra :rotfl:

    My main motivation for chipping my consoles (believe it or not) was that I was sick to the back of my teeth with the cr*p, shoddy, appauling PAL conversions forced upon us by the likes of Capcom/Square etc.

    The prime example of this heresy, are Ikaruga on Gamecube and Final Fantasy X on PS2.

    Both are masterpieces of game design and have been created with an extraordinary amount of love, care & attention. It makes me red with fury to see them ruined upon PAL conversion.

    I can't imagine how furious the developer must feel - that his baby, his pride & joy is being presented to the gaming public in such a pathetic state. All that hard work, blood, sweat & tears wasted because of a shoddy conversion.

    I will continue to chip my consoles and import NTSC software until publishers take PAL regions seriously and give us the quality of product we deserve.

    DT
     
  17. JUS

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    People are impatient and want games, dvd's etc etc as early as possible. I don't want to wait 6months after the US release to get a game or dvd. Must say it has got better recently. Importing is especially tempting when you can get the game/dvd 6 months earlier and a few quid cheaper than the eventual UK price.

    Lots of forgein retailers/manufacturers offer great warrantees & service...SVS...the Japanese projector retailer (can't remember their name)...DVDBoxOffice...etc...etc..

    Regarding the financial stability of the UK companies...The companies have got to realise it's a world wide market place nowerdays so they can't just expect us Brits to pay over the odds all the time, happens with everything. If they offer the goods at the same time & price then there will be less justification for chipping (Xbox excluded from that).

    I originally thought this topic was going to be about the bloke who converted his Rolls Royce into a pickup in the 70's. Front was a Roller & back was a pickup. Rolls Royce took the car away from him and gave him a brand new pickup & brand new Roller. :laugh:
     
  18. kelvin

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    :p Someone didn't read the other thread ;) (Your point was raised in that one too...) :)

    K.
     
  19. MrBlofeldt

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    It seems to me the way to combat Piracy is to to do one of two things, a) make it so downloading dodgy software/movies/music/etc is so uncool that it's frowned upon. Which, if we're honest about it, is going to be nigh on impossible, or b) reduce the prices of products to a point where it is cheaper to go out and buy the damn thing. For example, the average cost of a music cd is what ? £10, lets say 1 000 000 units are sold, there's £10 000 000, how much does a blank cd cost to a manufacturer ? a penny, less ? there's £10 000, take off all the other costs distribution, printing blah blah blah and the music industries must still be making a bucket load on every cd they sell. I see no reason why they can't drop the price significantly to say £2.00, £2.50, £3.00 and still make a reasonable profit. In fact they would probably do better as less people could be bothered with the clart on of downloading an Album.

    I don't personally buy/download dodgy products, I prefer to have the original copy, but it really annoys me to have to fork out £35-40 for a new game that may or may not be very good. :thumbsup:
     
  20. mrmcdean

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    Thought id thow my hat into the ring here.

    Many people who mod an x box so they can 'backup' their games ;) but many more think they have a black box that plays games. I love technology and get the mickey taken ot of me on a regular basis as a result. However, I dont have the computer / technical knowledge that seems to be more and more important if you want to be on the front line - If I get an error message on my computer all I can do is turn it of and hope it works when I turn it back on. :laugh:

    A friend of mine used to build PCs for a living and has just chipped his x box, new HD etc. He brought it round the other night and ignoring the fact that you can put copied games on it theres so much more you can do (as others have mentioned). Theres obviously a market for a one box solution to home entertainment (look at everyone trying to build an HTPC - myself included) and has been so for a number of years (whatever happened to that Sony device based on the PS2 ?)

    Manufacturers will put out a new, slightly better machine every few years until in the far of future a more complete solution arrives. Im sure Microsoft would rather no one knows about the potential of the x box as they have plans to charge us much more for something that does the same sort of thing.

    Just a quick note about copying games, I appreciate that production costs have risen over the years and people demand more every time but how about putting more effort into playability, how many people have gone out and paid £30 - £40 for heavily hyped game to find out its :censored: - style over substance is everywhere, now if it was £20 it wouldnt be so bad. I know you can rent games but I stupidly tend to on reviews from magazines.
     
  21. H4r7y

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    it flopped with little style in japan as far as i know.
    sony used it to test the water with an all in one home media device.
     
  22. dynamic turtle

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    Yeah, Microsoft's entrant - the "Xbox" failed miserably there too :laugh:
     
  23. t-force

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    Whilst I do not approve AT ALL of using "back up" games, there are a considerable amount of games for the PS1 + PS2 that I would dearly love to play, but am no longer able to, as the mod chip scene has been killed off. I understand totally Sony's reasons for taking the action they have, but it would have been very nice to see a chip (or disk, like the Freeloader) that ONLY enabled import software, and not backups.

    Sadly, I know that the vast majority of people who bought mod-chips were purely in it to get games for next to nothing.
     
  24. mrtbag

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    This is not possible for a manufacturer of a game or a film in this country (UK). They sell on to the shops, websites etc at a 'price'. What you pay is up to the website or shop.
     
  25. H4r7y

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    correct me if im wrong, but...
    the xbox was sold as a games console though?? out of the factory, there wasnt alot you could do with it media wise apart from add your own music tracks to use in games. and the cd/dvd player ofcourse.
     
  26. dynamic turtle

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    yeah, just joking Harry.
     
  27. H4r7y

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  28. Seth Gecko

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    Isn't it also amusing that you can buy something to make your PS2 (and Xbox I believe) Multiregion capable for DVD's yet you can't for the games..........

    We also know that if we buy an import machine to play import games, Sony etc don't like this either and won't honour a warranty - yet they get all up themselves if we modify it so that we can.

    Talk about between a rock and a hard place.........
     
  29. mrmcdean

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    I didnt realise that they wouldnt honour a warranty on an imported console, is this legal (i assume so or they wouldnt be doing it) surely a manufacturers warranty is there to cover the device no matter where its used. What if you live in Japan and move to the UK. Thats disgraceful. :lesson:

    Didnt they try to do this with cars not too long ago, UK dealers were'nt honouring warranties on cars bought elsewhere in Europe but they now have to ???? (perhaps thats the difference, the cars were bought in Europe)

    P.S I dont own an imported console by the way, or a chipped one.
     
  30. mrtbag

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    Where did you hear that? You will see in any warranty the terms for seeking repairs etc in continents outside where you made the purchase. I have bought many electrical items from the states, and never had an issue.
     

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