If BD Wins will we all suffer draconian DRM enforcement?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Norman, Dec 20, 2006.

  1. Norman

    Norman
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    Technologically speaking, I’m not bothered who wins the format war because I think both technologies will deliver ideantical HD Video performance, but I am concerned about DRM technology and perhaps someone reading this can clear up this point for me.

    Bill Gates has said current DRM technology doesn’t offer a good solution for the new age because people now want to move their legitimately purchased software from one device to another (i.e. move a film from an optical disk to a media centre PC or music to an iPOD) which is why Microsoft, Intel and HP have backed HDDVD.

    As I understand it, HDDVD is the only format to make managed copy a mandatory part of its specification whereas BD leaves it as an option.
    Does this mean that if BD wins the format war we may all suffer from having a far less flexible medium than desired because I can’t believe Sony would allow managed copy for movies?

    I may be completely wrong here so any comments would be welcome.
     
  2. Dave2

    Dave2
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    God i hope there is no DRM its a nightmare when the drm folder becomes corrupt and you have to go fix it.
     
  3. Rasczak

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    You can relax somewhat - HD DVD and BluRay have very similar levels of protection - both now have mandatory managed copy as part of their spec. Both have the same protection system (AACS). BluRay has a two other protection mechanisms (BD+ and BD Mark) but both of these are unlikely to effect you the consumer in legitimate uses other than potentially making regional coding unhackable on BluRay.

    However the proof of the pudding is going to be how managed copy is implemented. Managed copy is not guarenteed to be free. There is talk of charges being applied for all uses - well if I've paid £15 for a high def disc and I just want a low res copy on my iPod that I will then delete after watching once then I will be a little miffed if I have to pay (e.g.) £2.
     
  4. StooMonster

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    The key component for DRM issue for me is region encoding.

    Blu-ray has been better at this than was first thought, however, the possiblity of super-strong region encoding with multi-region players never happening looms over a Blu-ray "win" IMO.

    No importing before UK release date, no buying movies no trips/holidays at cheap prices because of weak currencies, no buying films not released in your region, etc.

    StooMonster
     
  5. The Nightfly

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    It's ironic really that these multi-national companies will scour the globe looking for the cheapest prices on components and labour in order to build machines that prevent you doing the same.

    Allan
     
  6. neilneil

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    Is this one of the reasons perhaps that they want to break the US market first? Because the US has the least impact from region codeing ie they get 99% of new releases first so they don't care about strong region codeing. You can then get the snow ball rolling in the US first and hopfully Europe will follow regardless of how much we don't like region coding.
    Is it also true that Japan has been brought into the same region as the US?

    -Neil
     
  7. StooMonster

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    Yes it is true that Japan is now in same region as USA, so Americans can buy anime with no lock-out issues.

    There's certainly a strong argument in what you are suggesting. Of course the real reason for region encoding is to keep prices artificially high in certain markets, especially Europe, and lock customers out of chance of sourcing more cheaply in the world.

    StooMonster
     
  8. Ian_S

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    I'd be far MORE worried about the DRM facilities Microsoft has built into Vista. If you thought Windows Media player could get fussy, you ain't seen nothing yet.

    As for managed copy, put me in the camp where if I'm expected to pay for lower res copies you can count me out.

    Regardless of optical format, DRM is going to become far more intrusive. It's up to us as consumers to vote with our wallets on this one.
     
  9. DocDVD

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    And thats exactly why I will not buy into BluRay. These studios haven't learned anything about what their customers want, IMO.
     
  10. gandley

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    Its a shame then that HD-DVD may well go region encoded. I hope they dont, but it definatly looks like its on the table at some point.
     
  11. DocDVD

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    Yeah, I could understand it from a business perspective (if e.g. Fox would made it a prerequisite to join HD-DVD) - it would be a step backwards nonetheless.

    Region coding is only here to screw the consumer... :thumbsdow
     
  12. Rasczak

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    At least if we get it at this stage it will hopefully be crackable - the BD coding seems to be fairly well entrenched and attempts ot crack it have so far failed. I don't see how Regional Coding can be integrated so effectively into HD DVD when the players are already out/far along the design process.
     
  13. amirm

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    HD DVD is pretty far from "going region encoded." There are proposals being studied but none is ratified yet and even if they are, they do not apply to existing software and hardware.

    One has to remember that DVD Forum is an open organization, allowing people to propose many things, and those proposals are public. But such data does not lead to firm conclusions of something happening.

    Amir
    Microsoft
     
  14. av-phile

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    Glad to hear about that, straight from the "horse's mouth" so to speak. I hope the phrase "pretty far from" is far enough until the next genertion format comes along. :D
     
  15. Roam

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    Ratifying no region encoding once and for all on both formats would put consumers minds at rest would it not?.

    Making the HD players region free for SD would help too either from the off or with remote hacks considering studios apparently have a relaxed attitude towards region coding these days. I can hear the cheers already.

    :thumbsup:
     
  16. av-phile

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    I think SONY has shot another toe on its foot. We all know that Linux is the darling OS of hackers in the cyberworld. And with Linux on the PS3, they are able to do this:

    http://www.engadget.com/2006/11/27/iso-images-dumped-from-ps3-blu-ray-discs-via-linux/

    That's a start. Can't wait for the them to hack everything there is to hack on BD. That should make BD the next generation darling of pirates in China. If only to spite $ony and those those greedy studios. :D
     
  17. Ian_S

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    And as soon as the Xbox addon was released someone did exactly the same with HD-DVD from a PC... Can we knock one toe off of MS/Toshiba too please?
     
  18. av-phile

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    Really? where's the site? I have no problem with that. The sooner both formats get hacked, the sooner I can see $60 high def players a $2 pirated discs of both formats flooding the market. And the sooner greedy arrogant studio and CE executives committing suicide. :D
     
  19. Rasczak

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    In both instances it is, I believe, only file ripping - AACS protection remains intact on the files effectively making them useless.
     
  20. av-phile

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    Does anyone think that AACS is unhackable? Or BD+? Or DRM? Or MMC? Any special reason why?
     
  21. Ian_S

    Ian_S
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    It was an ISO copy of King Kong, as Rasczak says in both cases all they've done is a drag and drop of the files from one disc to a directory on hard disc and then created a .iso image.

    I can do exactly the same with any BD movie on my PC drive and the resultant files are unplayable.

    Ironically though, if AACS IS cracked, BD may be the friendlier system simply because of the lack of ethernet connectivity. At this point AACS are faced with a very awkward position. They could for HD-DVD revoke the AACS keys and force new ones to be downloaded via the web. For HD-DVD players whilst a pain it is possible. For BD players with no connectivity such a move may prove impossible.

    Quite how this side of AACS will work remains to be seen. As long as the system remains uncracked then it won't matter. As soon as it does though... :eek:
     
  22. MikeK

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    They'd probably hide new keys in later title releases - the simple act of loading the disc would transfer the keys.
    What's going to be interesting though is when (and inevitably if they employ this type of system, they will) they make a cock-up and knobble lots of legitimate players - they could be in serious trouble then.

    Although some people could certainly manage to get a HD-DVD player connected via ethernet to the internet - many people wouldn't have a clue how to do this.
    The other question of course is, if the player isn't connected to the interent in the first place, how do they revoke any keys.
    I suppose they'd have to do it by disc again!
     
  23. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    No 'format' has been hacked here from what I see. I do admire the confidence of some that the system can be hacked. We are are over 6 months in now and we can't even make BD players multi region! I would have thought that would be much more relevant.
     
  24. av-phile

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    True, the market for HD still isn't that big for computer-geek-pirates to bother cracking. How soon was CSS cracked after DVD was launched?

    But it will come. Studios and CEs have no idea how rich and resourceful the Chinese Video Mafia is. They are probably just laughing their hearts out at those AACS and BD+ the studios have developed. As far as computer coding is concerned, there's no such thing as hack-proof or crack-proof. :D Just a question of time and how profitable it is to hack the system.
     
  25. StooMonster

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    CSS was cracked because a title left their CSS Key exposed which enabled 'DVD Jon' to reverse engineer the encoding algorithm.

    CSS was 40-bit system whereas AACS's specifications have never been publically released, but one can assume that it's many more bits; and studios will be more careful with their keys.

    DVD Jon (Jon Lech Johansen) announced on 8 January 2006 that he was creating a DeAACS program which would removed AACS encryption from Blu-ray and HD DVD discs. He initially planned to have it complete by the end of 2006, but WackyPedia tells me that he's currently gunning for March 2007. However, this seems at odds with his new business venture DoubleTwist Ventures, as I would assume that would take up all his time; so it's unknown if he is still working on DeAACS.

    Engadget are carrying a story today that AACS has been cracked for HD DVD: http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/27/aacs-drm-cracked-by-backuphddvd-tool/

    However, even is AACS is cracked and content can be unscrambled on computers ... how does that help us with multi-region players? Personally I don't pirate anything, but would like to play discs from where-ever I choose to purchase them.

    StooMonster
     
  26. gandley

    gandley
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    Which is why i said "may" happen, and could happen, yes? (thou i hope not)
     

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