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IAG TMA Clearout

Discussion in 'TAG McLaren Audio Owners' Forum' started by AMCross, Feb 1, 2005.

  1. AMCross

    AMCross
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    Are all the items seen on HiFibitz website the only products that we will see at this low level or are more to come

    Will the likes of AV32R DP or 100x5 going to be available soon
     
  2. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Good question......
     
  3. lenny

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    To me the worst case will be the selling of some new DVD32R at such level of prices....

    However if a massive selling will take place, I'll grab a 250x3 with pleasure :cool: ....
     
  4. Plump

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    From what I've heard there were hardly any top loaders there at the time of takeover.
     
  5. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    I had heard the opposite....... Time will tell.....
     
  6. lenny

    lenny
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    Please Graham ! :suicide:
    What do you know? I stil have some time to cancel my order...
     
  7. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Nothing more than rumour that there was a lot of DVD32R's built and stored, I can't believe that many people bought them.... Local Huntingdon rumour is that there was more than one TAG warehouse and they had a lot of stuff in them....... I would assume the slower moving items like the old audiolab stuff and the T32R/DVD32FLR/DVD32R. I doubt the AV32R or DP are around in large numbers and I know the AV192R was being built more or less to order ages ago. Stocks of the cards though is pure speculation as is complete metalwork so it is a coomplete guess as to what they could build and ship or more likely have to build and ship before the use of the TAG name ceases........ If you wait you might not get one at all, if you buy now it might be cheaper later....... That is life I'm afraid...
     
  8. rob@rar.org.uk

    rob@rar.org.uk
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    Have I missed something? Is there a big TMA sale going on somewhere?

    Regards

    Rob
     
  9. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    "Big", no, sale well yes sort of, some bits went up for sale via hifibitz at vastly reduced cost and started this whole what else is coming discussion.. Very few people actually got a bargain though so the vultures circle in the hope of another flurry of stock shifting..... Greed eh don't you just love it.... (lucky buggers!)
     
  10. liam_b

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    I was told by my friendly TAG dealer that the only items that will be discounted are the items which do NOT appear in the 'new Audiolab' range, so no discounted AV32R-DP, AV192R, 250MR, 250x3R, I asked.

    I was not told, and did not ask, about T32R & 100x5R. I did ask about the DVD32R/FLR, I was told that there will be no cheap DVD32R as there 'aren't top loader parts', as this is 2nd hand info - treat with pinch of salt.

    Also Udo&Co are smart cookies - so by the time TAG were building the 100x5R they already knew that they had a large stock of the stereo only amps so I would have expected them to be more cautious about building up large stocks of the more expensive items, don't be expecting Richer to suddenly start selling off 5000 DVD32R for £2K, T32R for £1K etc.
     
  11. AMCross

    AMCross
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    And i thought that advert from loanpages.co.uk was so i could afford all this discounted Tag gear :rotfl:
     
  12. caleb

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    Isn't this what we expected?

    It's like a feeding frenzy - amps? DVD32? tuners? - TAG inside an Audiolab badged unit.

    Reminds me of that line in Forest Gump - life's like a box of chocolates - you dont know what youre getting next!!

    BTW thanks for the Peter Belt site Graham - never laughed so much in a long time.
    Caleb
     
  13. Dr Udo Zucker

    Dr Udo Zucker
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    Hi all, most companies today work to JIT (Just In Time), i.e. they keep the items sitting in their warehouses as small as possible. Old-TMA operated a strict MRP system and put a huge effort in achieving exactly that goal of minimal stock.

    This isn't an easy job as it might seen, as the hifi-market is cyclic, i.e. sales are high during October to March and much lower during the rest of the year. In addition customers (or better the retailer) don't like to wait. However, old-TMA rather accepted product shortages than high stock levels! If the product is good, so our assumption, then the customer will wait, despite the energy the retailer will put in persuading him/her to select another "better" product, just because it's available :).

    No doubt, there has been significant stock of some F3-Series products (manufactured 1998), namely PA10, 60P and 125Ms. There was basically no stock of PA20, T20, 60iRV, 100P, PPA20, CD20R, CD20R, 60i. Old-TMA had already decided to stop production of these products [and focus on av], with the exception of the CD players, as you might remember. So, I am afraid there isn't -in my opinion- a lot of cheap deals here, except for some 60Ps and lesser so 125Ms, but then these deals already existed since 2003. Old-TMA called them factory sales.

    All "real TMA" products were in constant demand and were always build in economical batches, which is about 30-50 for a finished product, about 100 for the bar printed circuit boards. Please remember the high end audio market is tiny, tiny, i.e. even a great product such as the AV32R doesn't sell in more than say 1500 pieces a year. And that's worldwide in good times!!!

    The DVD32R stock was basically exhausted early 2004, whereas the DVD32FLR contained a few more items, but nothing dramatic. The discontinuation of the Pantera 1 device made it impossible to build more and, for completion, there were no plans to design a follow-up (of similar technology) due to the restrictions in DVD technology. SACD and DVD-Audio were considered "niche" markets (and the time has in my opinion shown) and new DVD technologies not yet arrived.

    Please remember, I don't speak for the new owner, but I personally doubt that there will be many (if any) bargains of cheap ex-stock [except those stated above]. Of course there might be raw parts, but they go in old products as much as new Audiolab based products, or are simply written of. In any case these raw components have no value for the end-consumer (except he needed a spare part).

    I think, just as we had seen, when Audiolab was discontinued in 1998, there might be soon rather an price hike for those few remaining real TMA products than a drop.

    P.S.: Graham, TMA had only one warehouse and that one was not even 20% full:lesson:
     
  14. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Hi Udo.
    Thank-you for putting the record straight on the warehouse situation, as I said it was local Huntingdon rumour (people who didn't work for TAG but knew about warehouses, even one chap you nearly rented space off alledgedly!!!).

    I am curious if you could answer one question, to the best of your knowledge can IAG continue to use TMA silk screen branded boards in new "Audiolab" badged AV32/192/8000AV product after the use of the TAG name ceases (i.e. very shortly???)? Or must they only be kept on the shelf for repairs to existing kit?
     
  15. Plump

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    Well, you rather trust rumours than insider info. :cool:

    I knew this about top loaders, for the rest, time will show it, it will be all clear very soon.
     
  16. GrahamMG

    GrahamMG
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    Until anyone says so offically it is always rumour mate...... Unfortunately many of the rumours surrounding the TAG situation did prove true as we all know......
    Would you know the answer to the internally labelled TAG boards?
     
  17. ditton15

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    Udo, I've looked at specs on the 8000m, the 8000mx and the Tag 125M, but would welcome clarification of the real difference between the 125M and the other two. I had read somewhere that it was 'just' better components, but using same overall design.
     
  18. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi Graham, as I said, old-TMA's purpose built factory had ample of unused space (would like to see it today, after Meridian bought themselves in :) ).

    Regards your second question, I have to simply say "I don't know", but admit that I would be surprised if such restriction would include components inside a unit. My 2 Eurocent of wisdom, though...
     
  19. Dr Udo Zucker

    Dr Udo Zucker
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    Hi, the latest versions of these three units use different printed circuit boards, with major differences in topology between 8000M and the other two. In addition there were several versions of 8000Ms.
     
  20. ditton15

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    Udo, many thanks for that clarification. now my next whacky question:

    if I already had one 8000mx, how would it sound when paired with a Tag 125m?

    the alternative is to use the 8000mx for centre duties, but as my sig suggests I'm really after improvement on a disjoint stereo set-up.

    btw, I've only just come into this league of hifi/av, so I wasn't in the market for Tag. I've done some listening since and am impressed.
     
  21. Dr Udo Zucker

    Dr Udo Zucker
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    Hi, there is a sound quality improvement between the 8000Mx and 125M.

    The 8000Mx's performance has been affected by two issues, of which one could be rectified with the 125M. The second disadvantage was (almost) conquered in the 100x5R but 110% put away with Douglas Self's great 250MR (or 250x3R).

    So what are these issues?



    The 8000Mx was the latest version of Audiolab's monobloc, introducing a new technology, which TMA later called 'straight line' technology. This basically meant a special circuitry to cope with DC offsets without having to add a capacitor into the signal path. That's a good thing, of course. Unfortunately, this new design was introduced at a time, where Audiolab had "replaced" the need for careful listening tests with the belief that their engineers equipment could do a similar (or better) job. I think, bear in mind we write the year 1996, they were confident, that the UK's major hifi magazine's objectiveness would make the 8000Mx automatically their next reference amplifier (whatever!). Well, there is more than audio performance when it comes to selecting great audio products by the audio press





    Going back to the subject, many audio companies might go through this time, where engineers and their test facilities replace the need for sound quality checking by ear. So in this case, the result is that the 8000Mx measures very good, but its sound can be a little ‘harsh’ and ‘tiring’ even under best conditions.



    The 125M deals with this issue (as much as possible) by introducing different components and some fine tuning of the circuitry. However, as it (had to) reuse the same circuit topology, this fix came very expensive, as these components, such as Vishay resitors etc are costly.





    The second issue is a problem shared by all Audiolab (and many other manufacturers’) amplifiers: bias current sensitivity, i.e. sound quality will be significantly affected by mains voltage variation and amplifier’s temperature. Whilst this effect is quite prominent, it will affect, through its nature, everybody differently. Fortunately (or is it unfortunately?) the audio press, the experts making up the purchasers' mind, tend to listen to well warmed-up products at dedicated mains supply. So they will never be irritated by this issue, but you, if you don't have a stable enough mains supply, close enough to the nominal voltage, or/and you don't run the amps hard enough to stabilise it thermically, will only get a fraction of its audio performance. Btw, just leaving the amp on whilst its idling will not be sufficient to reach thermal equilibrium!





    So in a nutshell, I would never recommend to upgrade a 8000Mx to a 125M if I had the option to get my hands on a 100x5R or 250MR/250x3R, but the 125M is a great amplifier in case you upgrade from a lesser amplifiers than the 8000Mx.



    I hope this helps- please feel free to ask if I missed anything out.
     
  22. Inotrope

    Inotrope
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    Are you suggesting that for 2-channel music, a 5x100 would be technically superior to 4x125M's? Even though the 125Ms monoblocs have bigger transformers, larger capacitors and completely seperate signal paths, and a higher power?

    I must say, I toyed with the idea of a 5x100 for 2 channel, but felt that it was a little too "AV" - I would greatly value your thoughts!

    regards, mark
     
  23. Inotrope

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    Oh, and as an aside, did the 8000PX incorporate the newer "sl" type circuitry? thx
     
  24. ditton15

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    Udo,

    Just a brief reply to thank you for those reflections, upon which I need to ponder. What I think you are saying is that the 8000mx was a technical advance on the 8000m but was a bit 'bleeding edge' when it came to everyday listening and capable of further improvement/tweaking (achieved in the 125m).

    As you may have seen, my upgrade is from the 8000S.
     
  25. johnson

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    Dr Zucker,
    If you had ajustment on your mains supply voltage, what voltage would the amps run best at?
    Many thanks
    Simon
     
  26. Dr Udo Zucker

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    Hi Mark, definitely. BTW, the 100x5R is a monobloc design with excellent signal routing. Its refinememet put it in a much higher class than the 125M. Furthermore, physical size of a transformer or a capacitor would be a far too crued way of measuring its performance. Finally the 100x5R produces close to 150W/channel into 8 Ohm, compared to the 129W for the 125M:) .
     

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