I went from a 77'' OLED... to Projection.. a bit of an essay...

popelife

Active Member
C6 and C9 both 65"

Maybe you got used it so much that it does not bothered you but if N7 is anything like x7900 in this regard then you are in for a treat and I have a feeling surprise discovery of how week 24fps really is on a LG Oled.

JVC is vastly superior in this regard. I can watch 133"@2.6m for hours with JVC when Oled @1.8m wares me down after less then a full length movie.

For sure I’m looking forward to seeing the JVC.

Differences may be due to the relative brightness of OLED of course. Judder is more obvious when the image is brighter. So “projectors vs OLED” isn’t necessarily a question of one manufacturer handling motion better than another, it is just as likely to be due to a difference in perception because of the different average brightness levels and image sizes.

Plus, small bright images are more tiring to watch for extended periods than much Bigger, dimmer ones. So again, what you’re experiencing may not be a motion problem.

OLED is a sample and hold display technology, which isn’t ideal for motion, but that’s not a “design choice” they could get around. But that’s why I say, if you have any of the new 2020 OLEDs, and 24fps motion bugs you, experiment with the BFI modes, which can potentially remove the sample-and-hold artefacts, and get closer to replicating cinema-style film projection.

All kinds of things can affect the quality of motion you’re getting in your system, from TV settings to what the source is doing. It’s a little bit of a minefield, and you can’t always assume everyone’s comparing the same thing.

If you start using frame interpolation functions, then even if all the settings ARE the same, one viewer will say “the motion looked perfectly smooth, brilliant” and someone else will say it was absolutely intolerable and unnatural (that would be me). It just depends what you’re looking for.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
For sure I’m looking forward to seeing the JVC.

Differences may be due to the relative brightness of OLED of course. Judder is more obvious when the image is brighter. So “projectors vs OLED” isn’t necessarily a question of one manufacturer handling motion better than another, it is just as likely to be due to a difference in perception because of the different average brightness levels and image sizes.

Plus, small bright images are more tiring to watch for extended periods than much Bigger, dimmer ones. So again, what you’re experiencing may not be a motion problem.

OLED is a sample and hold display technology, which isn’t ideal for motion, but that’s not a “design choice” they could get around. But that’s why I say, if you have any of the new 2020 OLEDs, and 24fps motion bugs you, experiment with the BFI modes, which can potentially remove the sample-and-hold artefacts, and get closer to replicating cinema-style film projection.

All kinds of things can affect the quality of motion you’re getting in your system, from TV settings to what the source is doing. It’s a little bit of a minefield, and you can’t always assume everyone’s comparing the same thing.

If you start using frame interpolation functions, then even if all the settings ARE the same, one viewer will say “the motion looked perfectly smooth, brilliant” and someone else will say it was absolutely intolerable and unnatural (that would be me). It just depends what you’re looking for.

I don't think what Sebna is talking about is brightness related.

BFI didn't help when I used the GX & CX with the issue Sebna is talking about. I've also spoken to others users who've owned both LG & Sony OLEDs and stated the same issues still persist on the Sony's, which are meant to be the best for motion.

Have you checked the scene I linked you yet? Give it a go without motion processing and without BFI and then with them. I doubt you'll see much or any chance with BFI.

I found with my CX, tru-motion setting 5/10 made it very tolerable but the soap opera effect was incredibly strong and looked ridiculous.
 

sebna

Member
So again, what you’re experiencing may not be a motion problem.

Oh, believe me it is a motion problem.

Also I of course am only comparing unaided motion to unaided motion. This is the only way I would watch.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
@sebna could you also look at the 1917 timestamp?

I think the problem with moving forwards with this conversation to something a bit more concrete is we don't have a set baseline and definition of what the problem is we're talking about. From my perspective, that scene from 1917 sums it up nicely so if you could also have a look at it, at least we can focus the debate and issue without other confounding factors (which aren't really contributory to the issue) being mentioned unnecessarily.
 

sebna

Member
@sebna could you also look at the 1917 timestamp?

I think the problem with moving forwards with this conversation to something a bit more concrete is we don't have a set baseline and definition of what the problem is we're talking about. From my perspective, that scene from 1917 sums it up nicely so if you could also have a look at it, at least we can focus the debate and issue without other confounding factors (which aren't really contributory to the issue) being mentioned unnecessarily.
I will but I have not watched it yet and I will only watch it in few weeks time when my audio is finalized so it might a bit late for our discussion.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I will but I have not watched it yet and I will only watch it in few weeks time when my audio is finalized so it might a bit late for our discussion.


ah damn, if I still had my 77'' CX/GX, I'd find another timestamp from a film. THe other one is in the snug... and I cba doing my videophile stuff there. 🤣 🤣
 

popelife

Active Member
Hoh-kayyyy.... Have looked at that shot in 1917. Characteristically long analysis coming! ;)

I see what you're saying. Yep, looks pretty nasty in most people's "normal" mode on a C8 (that's with all the interpolation etc switched off, no sharpening, proper white balance etc). It's equally bad on both the UHD and the standard Blu Ray versions, so it's not anything to do with an HDR bug, or trouble handling the UHD data rate.

So I filmed the screen at high frame rate (240fps - best I can manage) and went thru it frame by frame to try and figure out what's going on. Far as I can make out, there are three things at work here (well, kind of two and a half, since two of the problems are related).

1) The good news is it's definitely displaying 24fps progressive as it should. The screen shows a new frame of film every 10 frames of 240fps. So there is 24fps judder. That's to be expected, and pans are of course the worst for showing it up.

2) However, exacerbating that 24fps judder is the fact that It appears to be shot at a fairly high shutter speed, so there's not much motion blur in each frame to help join one frame to the next. e.g. the thin bars in the windows of the building near the end of the pan are surprisingly clear while the pan is happening, and aren't much blurrier during the pan than they are when the camera is stationary. Odd decision. Maybe they went for a high shutter speed to get crisp details in the characters' clothing etc. All the other movement in that scene is very slow and smooth, so perhaps they chose to sacrifice the pan smoothness for super-sharpness in the rest of the shot. I don't know. Ask the DoP!

3) This is the big revelation, and it was the first thing that leapt out at me when I saw the shot. The frame is tearing - you see the upper parts of the buildings sort of detach and flicker separately from the lower parts! Here's why (this should have occurred to me before, seems obvious now).

To update the OLED panel it is scanned from top to bottom. That is to say, the whole frame is not updated at the same time (like it would be in a film projector). When a new 24fps film frame arrives, the OLED updates the pixels at the top of the panel first, and works its way down to the bottom. It takes about 1/80th of a second to update the whole panel.

So, 1/80th of a second, that's pretty fast right? A lot faster than the 24fps frame rate. BUT it means that for about a third of the duration of the 1/24s frame, the bottom of the panel shows the image from the previous frame, and the top of the panel the image from the next frame. That produces tearing when the image moves horizontally, which makes the buildings look a bit bent - the upper parts of the buildings don't seem to line up with the lower parts - made worse I'm sure by the fact that they have bright white sky behind them.

The tearing can be almost totally fixed by switching the black frame insertion on (TruMotion "Motion Pro"). That means that you never see the top of one frame sitting right next to the bottom of the previous frame, and that flickery "bent" look to the buildings goes away.

However, it doesn't fix the 24fps judder, because there is still very little motion blur in the source frames. So it doesn't magically clear up the whole problem, it just addresses one aspect of it. Def better though.

The BFI introduces a small amount of flicker at 24fps, but you don't notice it once the disc starts playing. You do have to contend with a drop in picture brightness, and a bit of a loss of visual punch. Colours feel a little bit muted. If you're going to use TruMotion Pro, I'd suggest watching in a darkened room, and probably recalibrating the black and white points, OLED light, etc. For SDR material I have one user picture preset for bright room conditions, and one for dark room with the BFI switched on.

I would be fascinated to try a CX/GX with the improved BFI. On the C8 the BFI presents as a wide black bar that scans down the image every 1/60s. I don't know exactly how it has changed on the 2020 LGs, but I understand it's much more refined. I know the width of the bar can be adjusted, but does it scan faster too?

Anyhow... I look forward to seeing how the JVC handles that scene. I'm also going to try and come up with other scenes from movies that include similar pans, and figure out what's happening in those, because they don't always look as bad as that one in 1917. It is fairly horrible.

HTH. See what you think on your systems.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Hoh-kayyyy.... Have looked at that shot in 1917. Characteristically long analysis coming! ;)

I see what you're saying. Yep, looks pretty nasty in most people's "normal" mode on a C8 (that's with all the interpolation etc switched off, no sharpening, proper white balance etc). It's equally bad on both the UHD and the standard Blu Ray versions, so it's not anything to do with an HDR bug, or trouble handling the UHD data rate.

So I filmed the screen at high frame rate (240fps - best I can manage) and went thru it frame by frame to try and figure out what's going on. Far as I can make out, there are three things at work here (well, kind of two and a half, since two of the problems are related).

1) The good news is it's definitely displaying 24fps progressive as it should. The screen shows a new frame of film every 10 frames of 240fps. So there is 24fps judder. That's to be expected, and pans are of course the worst for showing it up.

2) However, exacerbating that 24fps judder is the fact that It appears to be shot at a fairly high shutter speed, so there's not much motion blur in each frame to help join one frame to the next. e.g. the thin bars in the windows of the building near the end of the pan are surprisingly clear while the pan is happening, and aren't much blurrier during the pan than they are when the camera is stationary. Odd decision. Maybe they went for a high shutter speed to get crisp details in the characters' clothing etc. All the other movement in that scene is very slow and smooth, so perhaps they chose to sacrifice the pan smoothness for super-sharpness in the rest of the shot. I don't know. Ask the DoP!

3) This is the big revelation, and it was the first thing that leapt out at me when I saw the shot. The frame is tearing - you see the upper parts of the buildings sort of detach and flicker separately from the lower parts! Here's why (this should have occurred to me before, seems obvious now).

To update the OLED panel it is scanned from top to bottom. That is to say, the whole frame is not updated at the same time (like it would be in a film projector). When a new 24fps film frame arrives, the OLED updates the pixels at the top of the panel first, and works its way down to the bottom. It takes about 1/80th of a second to update the whole panel.

So, 1/80th of a second, that's pretty fast right? A lot faster than the 24fps frame rate. BUT it means that for about a third of the duration of the 1/24s frame, the bottom of the panel shows the image from the previous frame, and the top of the panel the image from the next frame. That produces tearing when the image moves horizontally, which makes the buildings look a bit bent - the upper parts of the buildings don't seem to line up with the lower parts - made worse I'm sure by the fact that they have bright white sky behind them.

The tearing can be almost totally fixed by switching the black frame insertion on (TruMotion "Motion Pro"). That means that you never see the top of one frame sitting right next to the bottom of the previous frame, and that flickery "bent" look to the buildings goes away.

However, it doesn't fix the 24fps judder, because there is still very little motion blur in the source frames. So it doesn't magically clear up the whole problem, it just addresses one aspect of it. Def better though.

The BFI introduces a small amount of flicker at 24fps, but you don't notice it once the disc starts playing. You do have to contend with a drop in picture brightness, and a bit of a loss of visual punch. Colours feel a little bit muted. If you're going to use TruMotion Pro, I'd suggest watching in a darkened room, and probably recalibrating the black and white points, OLED light, etc. For SDR material I have one user picture preset for bright room conditions, and one for dark room with the BFI switched on.

I would be fascinated to try a CX/GX with the improved BFI. On the C8 the BFI presents as a wide black bar that scans down the image every 1/60s. I don't know exactly how it has changed on the 2020 LGs, but I understand it's much more refined. I know the width of the bar can be adjusted, but does it scan faster too?

Anyhow... I look forward to seeing how the JVC handles that scene. I'm also going to try and come up with other scenes from movies that include similar pans, and figure out what's happening in those, because they don't always look as bad as that one in 1917. It is fairly horrible.

HTH. See what you think on your systems.


I tried with the CX & GX. It didn't solve the issue with BFI enabled FYI. Also the brightness penalty for BFI makes it a bit of an issue to enable in HDR content anyway.

My Sony HW40Es handled this scene perfectly. The Epson 9300 did a good job too. Haven't been able to test it on the 902B as its in a different room to most of the HT gear.

Anyway, to clarify this scene summarised the motion issues I (and most likely @sebna) have with OLED. This isn't a 'one-off' scene. Withour interpolation, its pretty common to see this in motion. I remember watching Mr. Robot and seeing it very often and sadly only interpolation alleviated it somewhat (at the cost of Soap Opera Effect which I always find is far quicker to introduce itself in TV shows).
 

Lvrhs

Active Member
My 5 cents here.
I am regular Young guy, no cinema expert - I don't notice DSE, judder or other specific things.
In past, I went to cinema approx. 30 times a year.
But since I bought good TV in home, I went to cinema maybe 10 times a year and only because I didn't want to wait 3 months for movie to be released in home video.
Now I have 65 inch FALD LCD and it clearly offers better picture quality than cinema can offer. Sitting 2.5m away from TV, is around same expierence for me, as sitting in middle row in cinema.
 

popelife

Active Member
My 5 cents here.
I am regular Young guy, no cinema expert - I don't notice DSE, judder or other specific things.
In past, I went to cinema approx. 30 times a year.
But since I bought good TV in home, I went to cinema maybe 10 times a year and only because I didn't want to wait 3 months for movie to be released in home video.
Now I have 65 inch FALD LCD and it clearly offers better picture quality than cinema can offer. Sitting 2.5m away from TV, is around same expierence for me, as sitting in middle row in cinema.

That's great! I get the same thing from time to time - I come away thinking "I can't wait to see that at home on my system so that I can see and hear it properly."

We are very spoiled by technology these days. Still love going out to the movies though.
 

sebna

Member
Have not been to cinema since I bought C6 some years ago. Never missed it since. Cinemas those days are too loud (for me) and PQ is nothing special :)

With recent addition of HT room I do not think I will ever go to cinema again (I am sure I will eventually on some odd occasion but ATM I cannot think of reason why would I)...
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Its not PQ but sound quality which makes me hate the cinema.

When you can have your own tailored surround setup with subwoofers which give you 1000x the impact the average cinema can, its a no brainer.
 

popelife

Active Member
I tried with the CX & GX. It didn't solve the issue with BFI enabled FYI.

It does solve the tearing part of the problem, which is the weirdest looking thing about that scene. But I think what you're finding objectionable is the tearing AND the major 24fps judder combined. As far as I can see, only some serious motion blur (which is bad) or full-on frame interpolation (soap-opera city) is going to eliminate the judder in that scene. I've seen the individual frames. They're going to judder.

I obviously don't know how your old Sony projector is handling that scene. Would love to see one and analyse what's going on. I'll def look into this when the N7 arrives as well. (Don't hold your breath tho).

DoP's do their best to minimise film judder when considering their shots, but sometimes it's unavoidable. It's just like rolling shutter effects in cheaper cameras. If you're aware of it you can try to avoid the kind of shots that will show it up.

Also the brightness penalty for BFI makes it a bit of an issue to enable in HDR content anyway.

Yes, I agree, that is a bit of an issue. I'd love to see LG take BFI more seriously by having separate calibration settings for BFI, and get it to tone-map better in that mode. I don't mind sacrificing the top end of the PQ curve and losing some highlight brightnesss on UHD material if it means I can have full-on film-like motion.

But that will hopefully be a moot point once my N7 arrives! (partly because it won't really do blistering highlight details 😶)
 

popelife

Active Member
Have not been to cinema since I bought C6 some years ago. Never missed it since. Cinemas those days are too loud (for me) and PQ is nothing special :)

With recent addition of HT room I do not think I will ever go to cinema again

Its not PQ but sound quality which makes me hate the cinema.

Wow, you folks do like to suck the joy out of going to the movies :)

[edit: Sorry if I come across over-critical, if you prefer watching movies at home then cool. I mean, I like watching movies at home too, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But there is something unique about the shared experience of seeing a movie with an audience. Plus, much as I'm keen on good picture and sound, I'd rather see a great movie on an average system than... see Batman v Superman again, regardless of the screen size and number of subwoofers]

We should start a couple of lists. One list of cinemas you can recommend for picture and sound quality. And another of all the fantastic movies in B&W or with mono soundtracks.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Wow, you folks do like to suck the joy out of going to the movies :)

[edit: Sorry if I come across over-critical, if you prefer watching movies at home then cool. I mean, I like watching movies at home too, otherwise I wouldn't be here. But there is something unique about the shared experience of seeing a movie with an audience. Plus, much as I'm keen on good picture and sound, I'd rather see a great movie on an average system than... see Batman v Superman again, regardless of the screen size and number of subwoofers]

We should start a couple of lists. One list of cinemas you can recommend for picture and sound quality. And another of all the fantastic movies in B&W or with mono soundtracks.

I'd rather see a great movie on a great system; especially sound wise.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
It does solve the tearing part of the problem, which is the weirdest looking thing about that scene. But I think what you're finding objectionable is the tearing AND the major 24fps judder combined. As far as I can see, only some serious motion blur (which is bad) or full-on frame interpolation (soap-opera city) is going to eliminate the judder in that scene. I've seen the individual frames. They're going to judder.

I obviously don't know how your old Sony projector is handling that scene. Would love to see one and analyse what's going on. I'll def look into this when the N7 arrives as well. (Don't hold your breath tho).

DoP's do their best to minimise film judder when considering their shots, but sometimes it's unavoidable. It's just like rolling shutter effects in cheaper cameras. If you're aware of it you can try to avoid the kind of shots that will show it up.



Yes, I agree, that is a bit of an issue. I'd love to see LG take BFI more seriously by having separate calibration settings for BFI, and get it to tone-map better in that mode. I don't mind sacrificing the top end of the PQ curve and losing some highlight brightnesss on UHD material if it means I can have full-on film-like motion.

But that will hopefully be a moot point once my N7 arrives! (partly because it won't really do blistering highlight details 😶)

I think the OLED's performance on that scene is the worst of any display technology I've used and it clearly illustrates the shortcomings of OLED I've referred to during this entire thread.

I still think they're great displays but its nice to be honest and open with its shortcomings.
 

celle

Active Member
Blame the movie, not the TV because of the low juddering frame rate. OLED is superior in motion to SXRD or LCD. Compare fast sports and action scenes and you will see it. I sold my LCD projector because of this. Football was not watchable to me. Combined with sample and hold and it´s a blurring mess. LCD and SXRD have more motion blur because of worst response times, resulting in smearing and more motion blur, and IMO that´s unacceptable. We need CRT like motion and OLED with BFI or DLP are closest to it. OLED could surpass CRT, if they wouldn´t use simple SaH. At the moment we can only use BFI 120Hz and hoping in the future LGD or Samsung Display (QDOLED, QNED) will using an even more advanced BFI system for OLEDs like an intelligent 2x splitted 4K to 8K (interlaced) motion picture processing for sharper motion, where in alternation every second pixel line in vertical resolution will be blacked out.
 
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popelife

Active Member
I did a bit of searching and found a few reviews of 1917 in the cinema that confirmed that the judder in pans was a big problem there too.

As I thought, it’s the movie, not the TV.

Also, I found an article that explains why flicker and judder are more apparent in bright scenes. Apparently the response time of the rods and cones in your eye is faster when the light falling on them is brighter! This means there’s motion blur happening in your eye when the image is darker.
 

popelife

Active Member
If anyone’s still interested, there’s also a very good guide to best practice on panning shots published by RED (the digital cinema camera manufacturer). It deals with the judder issue, and how to minimise it, in reasonable depth.

https://www.red.com/red-101/camera-panning-speed

I imagine for 1917, it was a trade off that Deakins consciously made - to sacrifice smooth pans for the added detail they could get by using higher shutter speeds. It was shot on a big sensor at 4.5k after all, I’m sure they wanted to make the most of those expensive pixels.

Lastly, the one-shot philosophy of the film means they can’t cut to reframe a scene like an ordinary movie would. They have to swing the camera around during the shot, so they end up with panning shots where they would normally try to avoid them.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Ha, well, I was actually looking for something else, but coincidentally just ran into this Reddit thread:


Good to hear it’s troublesome
However from my experience, it was far worse on the OLED.

the same issue applies to lots of other scenes I see in film. If I still had easy access to the OLeD I could link you some scenes from mr robot. It’s basically pans on the colour white
 

JamesP1701

Well-known Member
Hi all,

This is a really interesting thread and so would like to pick your brains.

We're about to move house and the living room is absolutely huge. I'm finally wondering about having a projector and screen put up after years of not being able to.

However, I am wondering if it is possible to do this alongside my OLED which I use for gaming and day to day viewing. So, it would mean having a screen that could be pulled down in front of the OLED.

Is such a thing possible and if so, what kind of budget should I be looking at? As the larger screen would be an added bonus to my hobby rather than the be all and end all, I wouldn't be looking for the absolute best (though 4K is a must.)

With thanks.
 

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