kenshingintoki
Distinguished Member
For the record guys I would rather watch a film on 100-120 inch OLED with some next generAtion Sony motion interpolation










If you canāt see the issue with 24p content on OlED I am happy to link you examples of the stutter and judder. Itās a technical limitation so surprised people donāt notice it and say their oled motioj is perfect. They have the worst 24p motion than pj plasma and lcd
I had both OLED and projector![]()
doesnāt matter how good an oled looks if itās postage stamp sized. Every high end home cinema has a projector.
trust me if the 77 OLED was good for me for home cinema more than PJ it would still be here. I will still buy another OLeD but it will be for open lounge , not home cinema room.
For the record guys I would rather watch a film on 100-120 inch OLED with some next generAtion Sony motion interpolation
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For the record guys I would rather watch a film on 100-120 inch OLED with some next generAtion Sony motion interpolation
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I agree. Iām not sure you can even call it a āhome cinemaā unless it has a projector. You can be āintoā home cinema with a TV but what you have isnāt really a home cinema.
That will probably change in 10 years time or so though, when direct view screens for your home in the 88ā to 120ā range may be affordable. In fact, by then, we may find that a lot of actual cinemas donāt use projectors.
(Assuming we still have cinemas in ten years)
24p judder is an inherent part of cinema, and Iām fine with that. OLED just does an excellent job of reproducing it of course due to its fast pixel response, but thatās not a flaw in OLED. Itās the opposite in fact.
( I agree that Plasma had amazing film-like 24fps motion, but that was because it was inherently doing a kind of BFI all the time. Which is why some people also perceived plasma as āflickeringā so you know, you canāt please everyone.)
LCD doesnāt have ābetterā motion by creating āmotion blurā. What LCD (whether in a TV or an LCD projector) historically has always had is a typically slower pixel response time, and what that does is reduce the motion resolution of moving objects by causing them to blur as they move. Thatās worse motion performance, not better.
Actual motion blur is captured in the individual frames of the film when shot, and thatās what helps tie the appearance of moving objects together. You donāt need anything to add extra motion blur, and after all, thereās no motion blur created between frames in a 35mm film projector.
FWIW, in cel animation, 24fps judder is made much more obvious because thereās no motion blur within the frames (unless the animator draws it in, which is virtually impossible to do in traditional animation... unless you work in pencil). Then itās made doubly worse because almost all hand-drawn animation is double-framed... so itās essentially running at 12fps. Thatās probably why most anime looks bad to you on an OLED. Itās not due to OLED though.
Fun fact - Prior to CGI, stop motion animators came up with the idea of āgo-motionā to add natural motion blur to moving miniatures, and that was part of what made practical model animation so convincing from Star Wars onwards... until CGI kicked the whole laborious process into the bin.
The funny thing is, when filmmakers have tried to get around the limitations of 24 FPS by going to 48 or higher, cinema-goers have hated it, because it no longer looks like āfilmā.
The worrying kind of judder is 3:2 pulldown judder, but I donāt see any of that on my C8 with 24fps sources. Iām not sure how they get around it if the panel refresh is truly fixed at 60Hz, so I will look into that. But 3:2 pulldown is really obvious and painful when you know what it looks like, and Iām not seeing it. And Iām a massive stickler for motion problems - you should see what we went through back in the day to get proper 24fps reproduction from DVD and a CRT projector.
The latest 120Hz OLED panels should have absolutely zero pulldown judder issues since they have a perfect 5:1 ratio of refresh rate to frame rate. So I find it hard to believe youāre getting anything other than natural, 24fps film judder on a CX or GX. I havenāt heard anyone else complain about motion problems at 24fps. Quite the opposite, all the reviews Iāve seen have said how great the motion is. If you have an issue with 24fps film judder the only answers are motion interpolation (yuck) or stop watching films.
Stutter is a different thing to judder, and THAT can be problem with many digital displays.
Stutter, if it happens a lot, is incredibly annoying. But I donāt think Iāve ever seen any frame stutter on my C8 OLED (it was certainly an issue occasionally on my B6) - you know, unless youāre watching shonky YouTube videos, in which case itās everywhere, but thatās down to the YouTube app and a lack of content standardisation. But I would be very disappointed if there was any stutter at all on the latest OLEDs.
I am definitely looking forward to seeing what motion looks like on my N7 when it arrives. It always looks great in demos, but the proof of the pudding is living with it. I would love to see BFI implemented on some home cinema projectors, but I totally understand why (to my knowledge) they donāt.
I would certainly like to test 133" Oled with PJ's motionand PJ's colour redition and without Oled's black crush. Until then I think I prefer PJ
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what projectors are you referencing with poor uniformity?
doesnāt matter how good an oled looks if itās postage stamp sized
Been tempted to react to this rather provocative statement but, in reality, I know what you mean. Big screen from long distance is more impressive that small screen from short distance, even if the viewing angle is the same. Food for thought for a neuropsychologist.
I've only had experience with CRT and DVLA projectors. Current JVC N series PJ have atrocious tinting from my experience and it is well documented in the other forum. Unfortunately never had an LCD PJ because of subpar contrast , or a DLP because of the "rainbow effect" sensitivity. I've had almost all generations of DVLA projectors (Sony and JVC) and they all had convergence, uniformity and tinting problems however slight, We should not forget about the screen (another set of problems).
Of course, size does matter, no arguing about that. In a bat cave I would go for a PJ, in all other scenarios - no way. Been in that purgatory for more than 20 years. Any bright scene ruins the image completely. You get used to it, but it's there.
But once again.. I do apologise if I came across as provocative. Not my intention at all.. just talking metaphor wise from what I think in my mind. Not to demean someone's purchase (and I apologise to my own C9 too).
Also on the mention of size, its weird that I only really appreciated HDR tone mapping and colour gradients when it was blown up to gigantic proportions infront of my face. There is something about size being able exhibit and show the new advances better than smaller screen.. if u get what i mean?
My dissapointment with the OLEDs for 2020 were dark scenes could be affected by 5% grey and bright scenes could be the victim of the white DSE grid pattern. My CX was a TERRIBLE sample so okay.. but my GX 5% grey slide was probably better than 95% of the forums, but it STILL exhibited banding on certain scenes pretty obstrustively.
I do. HDR is another can of worms. Neither OLED or PJs can do it accurately anyway. Panasonic is the only OLED brand who does it convincingly enough. PJs are too dim. poor dynamic range. It's like listening to low bit-rate mp3s. We call it "cinematic"))).
My main argument is about suitability of front projection in a living room. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a decent PJ, like a JVC, for example, because you would not get any benefit from the improved contrast except in some specific conditions, like very dark scenes with no highlights.
I do. HDR is another can of worms. Neither OLED or PJs can do it accurately anyway. Panasonic is the only OLED brand who does it convincingly enough. PJs are too dim. poor dynamic range. It's like listening to low bit-rate mp3s. We call it "cinematic"))).
My main argument is about suitability of front projection in a living room. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a decent PJ, like a JVC, for example, because you would not get any benefit from the improved contrast except in some specific conditions, like very dark scenes with no highlights.
No offense but what projectors have you used recently?
JVC DLA-N5, calibrated to 100 nits for SDR REC.709. In HDR real peak brightness was around 200 nits according to my measurements, on a unity gain screen. I calibrate my displays myself and have all the software and measuring equipment, colourimeter , spectrophotometer etc.
Just realized you use a high-gain screen. Explains the squinting. But they are not accurate those screens and have brightness uniformity problems and viewing angle is critical. Are you using the PJ for daytime viewing as well?
Stutter/Judder.. tomato, tomato.
I agree on paper LCDs have worse motion resolution BUT in real world terms, it causes BETTER motion in difficult pans where an OLED falls apart.
The bottomline for me is that I've never had massive issues with LCD motion but OLED I have... in 24p content.... for the cinematic stuff (which is 99% of TV and film)... its a bit of an achilles heel. Is it a dealbreaker? Of course not!! OLEDs are amazing despite this.
I can timestamp the issue at hand in a film for better illustration.
I've heard JVC motion is only second to Sony so I think you'll be in for a treat
You brought the issue up, but thanks for that insight. Makes the hour or so I spent trying to write a potted history of image judder for you totally worth it.
LCD blur doesn't mean LCD has better motion, but I accept that you personally prefer the effect when LCD hides some 24fps judder. But it does mean that the overall image is not quite what the filmmaker intended.
Like most HT enthusiasts, my aim has always been to try and get as close as I can to the cinema experience at home. There is no blur between frames in a 35mm projector, so if panning shots exhibit the same minor judder as I would see in the cinema, then I'm fine with that.
The thing is, we talk about 24fps judder like it's the worst thing imaginable, but it's an inherent part of film production, it's very minor, and the vast majority of film goers never notice it. If you want to see what judder really meant for home cinema fans in the 90s, try putting up with 3:2 pulldown at 60Hz. Thankfully 3:2 has mostly been resigned to the big bin of bad technology thanks to blu-ray and modern flat panel TVs. (though streaming boxes... watch out)
I assume you realise that film-makers often introduce EXTRA judder in some scenes - typically action scenes - because it gives it a particular look that they want. That judder is supposed to be there.
I'm not saying OLED motion is perfect. I don't know if you experimented with the BFI modes on the GX and CXs you had before you returned them, but if you like motion on plasmas, you might have liked OLED as well. As I've said before, the BFI on my C8 improves 24fps motion and makes it look more like film, but it also seems to drag the gamma out of line quite a lot, so it gets a bit tiresome and I tend to avoid it now.
So you've had "massive issues" with OLED motion, and apparently "OLEDs fall over and cry" with 24fps" and your Epson projector's motion is "1000x better than the LG OLEDs" and the "major drawback of the 77" GX and CX is they have no HDR impact" and "OLEDs can't do bright scenes and HDR due to ABL". Yet OLEDs are "amazing".
Sounds to me like you need to chill out a bit.
I'd be interested in that actually, yes please.
Yup. Looked good in the couple of demos I've had, and feedback from owners re motion has been very positive, so I'm expecting good things.
PS I discovered why the LG C8 has smooth 24fps... because I was wrong, the panel refresh is 120Hz, not 60Hz. So no pulldown or other tricks required.
Thanks, will check it out.1917, 1 hour 2 minutes 15 seconds (approx)
The guy comes out of the vehicle, says bye to commander then there is a panning sequences where it pans around to some trees and destroyed buildings
Are you getting JVC PJ for yourself? I got one few months back and absolutely love it. The difference in motion reproduction shows how crippled 24fps really is on Oled. But it is comparing one of the best 24 motions to one of the most affected by problems or if you prefer technological choices of the designersThanks, will check it out.
Are you getting JVC PJ for yourself?
I got one few months back and absolutely love it. The difference in motion reproduction shows how crippled 24fps really is on Oled. But it is comparing one of the best 24 motions to one of the most affected by problems or if you prefer technological choices of the designers.
I am big fan of Oled but 24fps is its weakest aspect IMHO.
Nice, let us know thoughts. I think itās not pretty at all compared to nearly every other form of display Iāve used.Thanks, will check it out.
Yes, order for N7 placed, though not expecting it until next year some time. Usual supply constraints.
Glad you like it. Donāt make me excited again, Iād got over the anticipation a week or so ago...
As youāll gather, Iām not really seeing that, except when compared to plasma. My old 50VT65, for all itās limitations, looked more like film than any other TV Iād owned. Thatās why I was originally thinking Iād upgrade to a CX or GX, for the improved BFI. Until I did the maths and realised a 77ā, although big, wasnāt going to cut it for what Iām trying to achieve.
which OLED do you have?