I went from a 77'' OLED... to Projection.. a bit of an essay...

popelife

Active Member
If you can’t see the issue with 24p content on OlED I am happy to link you examples of the stutter and judder. It’s a technical limitation so surprised people don’t notice it and say their oled motioj is perfect. They have the worst 24p motion than pj plasma and lcd

24p judder is an inherent part of cinema, and I’m fine with that. OLED just does an excellent job of reproducing it of course due to its fast pixel response, but that’s not a flaw in OLED. It’s the opposite in fact.

( I agree that Plasma had amazing film-like 24fps motion, but that was because it was inherently doing a kind of BFI all the time. Which is why some people also perceived plasma as “flickering” so you know, you can’t please everyone.)

LCD doesn’t have “better” motion by creating “motion blur”. What LCD (whether in a TV or an LCD projector) historically has always had is a typically slower pixel response time, and what that does is reduce the motion resolution of moving objects by causing them to blur as they move. That’s worse motion performance, not better.

Actual motion blur is captured in the individual frames of the film when shot, and that’s what helps tie the appearance of moving objects together. You don’t need anything to add extra motion blur, and after all, there’s no motion blur created between frames in a 35mm film projector.

FWIW, in cel animation, 24fps judder is made much more obvious because there’s no motion blur within the frames (unless the animator draws it in, which is virtually impossible to do in traditional animation... unless you work in pencil). Then it’s made doubly worse because almost all hand-drawn animation is double-framed... so it’s essentially running at 12fps. That’s probably why most anime looks bad to you on an OLED. It’s not due to OLED though.

Fun fact - Prior to CGI, stop motion animators came up with the idea of “go-motion” to add natural motion blur to moving miniatures, and that was part of what made practical model animation so convincing from Star Wars onwards... until CGI kicked the whole laborious process into the bin.

The funny thing is, when filmmakers have tried to get around the limitations of 24 FPS by going to 48 or higher, cinema-goers have hated it, because it no longer looks like “film”.

The worrying kind of judder is 3:2 pulldown judder, but I don’t see any of that on my C8 with 24fps sources. I’m not sure how they get around it if the panel refresh is truly fixed at 60Hz, so I will look into that. But 3:2 pulldown is really obvious and painful when you know what it looks like, and I’m not seeing it. And I’m a massive stickler for motion problems - you should see what we went through back in the day to get proper 24fps reproduction from DVD and a CRT projector.

The latest 120Hz OLED panels should have absolutely zero pulldown judder issues since they have a perfect 5:1 ratio of refresh rate to frame rate. So I find it hard to believe you’re getting anything other than natural, 24fps film judder on a CX or GX. I haven’t heard anyone else complain about motion problems at 24fps. Quite the opposite, all the reviews I’ve seen have said how great the motion is. If you have an issue with 24fps film judder the only answers are motion interpolation (yuck) or stop watching films.

Stutter is a different thing to judder, and THAT can be problem with many digital displays.

Stutter, if it happens a lot, is incredibly annoying. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen any frame stutter on my C8 OLED (it was certainly an issue occasionally on my B6) - you know, unless you’re watching shonky YouTube videos, in which case it’s everywhere, but that’s down to the YouTube app and a lack of content standardisation. But I would be very disappointed if there was any stutter at all on the latest OLEDs.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing what motion looks like on my N7 when it arrives. It always looks great in demos, but the proof of the pudding is living with it. I would love to see BFI implemented on some home cinema projectors, but I totally understand why (to my knowledge) they don’t.
 

popelife

Active Member
I had both OLED and projector :)

doesn’t matter how good an oled looks if it’s postage stamp sized. Every high end home cinema has a projector. :)

trust me if the 77 OLED was good for me for home cinema more than PJ it would still be here. I will still buy another OLeD but it will be for open lounge , not home cinema room.

I agree. I’m not sure you can even call it a “home cinema” unless it has a projector. You can be “into” home cinema with a TV but what you have isn’t really a home cinema.

That will probably change in 10 years time or so though, when direct view screens for your home in the 88” to 120” range may be affordable. In fact, by then, we may find that a lot of actual cinemas don’t use projectors.

(Assuming we still have cinemas in ten years)
 

sebna

Member
For the record guys I would rather watch a film on 100-120 inch OLED with some next generAtion Sony motion interpolation

😂😂🙏🙏🙏

I would certainly like to test 133" Oled with PJ's motion :D and PJ's colour redition and without Oled's black crush. Until then I think I prefer PJ :)
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I agree. I’m not sure you can even call it a “home cinema” unless it has a projector. You can be “into” home cinema with a TV but what you have isn’t really a home cinema.

That will probably change in 10 years time or so though, when direct view screens for your home in the 88” to 120” range may be affordable. In fact, by then, we may find that a lot of actual cinemas don’t use projectors.

(Assuming we still have cinemas in ten years)


I hope it changes but i fear the transport and space requirements will mean that doesn't happen.
Also in the UK our houses aren't going to get bigger and the bottom line is that only small proportion of the country probably has a dedicated room for such a big screen :(

24p judder is an inherent part of cinema, and I’m fine with that. OLED just does an excellent job of reproducing it of course due to its fast pixel response, but that’s not a flaw in OLED. It’s the opposite in fact.

( I agree that Plasma had amazing film-like 24fps motion, but that was because it was inherently doing a kind of BFI all the time. Which is why some people also perceived plasma as “flickering” so you know, you can’t please everyone.)

LCD doesn’t have “better” motion by creating “motion blur”. What LCD (whether in a TV or an LCD projector) historically has always had is a typically slower pixel response time, and what that does is reduce the motion resolution of moving objects by causing them to blur as they move. That’s worse motion performance, not better.


Actual motion blur is captured in the individual frames of the film when shot, and that’s what helps tie the appearance of moving objects together. You don’t need anything to add extra motion blur, and after all, there’s no motion blur created between frames in a 35mm film projector.

FWIW, in cel animation, 24fps judder is made much more obvious because there’s no motion blur within the frames (unless the animator draws it in, which is virtually impossible to do in traditional animation... unless you work in pencil). Then it’s made doubly worse because almost all hand-drawn animation is double-framed... so it’s essentially running at 12fps. That’s probably why most anime looks bad to you on an OLED. It’s not due to OLED though.

Fun fact - Prior to CGI, stop motion animators came up with the idea of “go-motion” to add natural motion blur to moving miniatures, and that was part of what made practical model animation so convincing from Star Wars onwards... until CGI kicked the whole laborious process into the bin.

The funny thing is, when filmmakers have tried to get around the limitations of 24 FPS by going to 48 or higher, cinema-goers have hated it, because it no longer looks like “film”.

The worrying kind of judder is 3:2 pulldown judder, but I don’t see any of that on my C8 with 24fps sources. I’m not sure how they get around it if the panel refresh is truly fixed at 60Hz, so I will look into that. But 3:2 pulldown is really obvious and painful when you know what it looks like, and I’m not seeing it. And I’m a massive stickler for motion problems - you should see what we went through back in the day to get proper 24fps reproduction from DVD and a CRT projector.

The latest 120Hz OLED panels should have absolutely zero pulldown judder issues since they have a perfect 5:1 ratio of refresh rate to frame rate. So I find it hard to believe you’re getting anything other than natural, 24fps film judder on a CX or GX. I haven’t heard anyone else complain about motion problems at 24fps. Quite the opposite, all the reviews I’ve seen have said how great the motion is. If you have an issue with 24fps film judder the only answers are motion interpolation (yuck) or stop watching films.

Stutter is a different thing to judder, and THAT can be problem with many digital displays.

Stutter, if it happens a lot, is incredibly annoying. But I don’t think I’ve ever seen any frame stutter on my C8 OLED (it was certainly an issue occasionally on my B6) - you know, unless you’re watching shonky YouTube videos, in which case it’s everywhere, but that’s down to the YouTube app and a lack of content standardisation. But I would be very disappointed if there was any stutter at all on the latest OLEDs.

I am definitely looking forward to seeing what motion looks like on my N7 when it arrives. It always looks great in demos, but the proof of the pudding is living with it. I would love to see BFI implemented on some home cinema projectors, but I totally understand why (to my knowledge) they don’t.

Stutter/Judder.. tomato, tomato ;). What I'm referring to is the instant pixel response time of an OLED panel which means 24p content, especially on panning scenes becomes very unnatural due to the lack of inherent lag which is present on LCDs and allows for a pseudo-motion blur. I agree on paper LCDs have worse motion resolution BUT in real world terms, it causes BETTER motion in difficult pans where an OLED falls apart.

The bottomline for me is that I've never had massive issues with LCD motion but OLED I have... in 24p content. 60fps content, video games, 120hz content.. flawless. beyond flawless, its just magical and feels like a part of your body. But for the cinematic stuff (which is 99% of TV and film)... its a bit of an achilles heel. Is it a dealbreaker? Of course not!! OLEDs are amazing despite this.

For 2020 sets, I can timestamp the issue at hand in a film for better illustration. OLEDs fall over and cry in similar scenes whilst LCDs manage to cruise along okay. TBH, I have heard of users being so-so with the motion for 2020 OLEDs. Most 2020 owners I've spoken to have been 'satisified' with the motion but no one has been overly enthused. I've testded it on the multiple sets I've had too to make sure it wasn't sample variation.

I've heard JVC motion is only second to Sony so I think you'll be in for a treat. My epson motion could be improved but its 1000x better than my LG OLEDs's was. Best motion I've ever had was Sony HW40Es followed by Panasonic 902B (although it had a horrible black smear which didn't help being able to appreciate the motion).


I would certainly like to test 133" Oled with PJ's motion :D and PJ's colour redition and without Oled's black crush. Until then I think I prefer PJ :)

And lets not forget 3D!

I just played the first 10 minutes of Ghost in the Shell 3D with a few family members and they were entranced and gobsmacked for the entire 10 minutes. In 4K UHD on the OLED.. everyone just says 'wow that looks pretty' at most.


I'm still part of team OLED. I think the superior motion resolution of an OLED via instant pixel response time comes to life in videogames, which I like to play, the HDMI 2.1 feature set is amazing and the HDR for specular highlight detail is the best-in-class alongside best SDR/HDR playback in general.

The only thing which upset me for gaming was the HDMI 2.1 raised blacks which meant I had to lower brightness and crush the entire image of detail and not matching ETOF curve.

I haven't had the pleasure of playing with a JVC N-series projector but I assume the combination of the native 4K + the high contrast panels will mean for gaming they will be fantastic.





In all honesty though, I do get why people would be close-minded to the projection. In truth, its very very very difficult to afford the time, space, light control, room treatment to get one to reach its best. Not everyone has a spare dedicated room or not everyone has the £2000 to pay for an ALR screen, and not everyone has a sized room which can house a projector and project a decent sized image. Similarly not everyone wants to do any of the above and instead wants a device to work around them.

But for HT enthusiasts, I struggle to see past not owning a good one. I see some people talk about projectors from the 90s and think they're the same now. The Epson 9400 when I had it and turned it on the first time, everyone said looked like a giant TV (It was a clip of a bright film...) and indeed it did look like one.
 

yvv

Active Member
what projectors are you referencing with poor uniformity?

I've only had experience with CRT and DVLA projectors. Current JVC N series PJ have atrocious tinting from my experience and it is well documented in the other forum. Unfortunately never had an LCD PJ because of subpar contrast , or a DLP because of the "rainbow effect" sensitivity. I've had almost all generations of DVLA projectors (Sony and JVC) and they all had convergence, uniformity and tinting problems however slight, We should not forget about the screen (another set of problems).

Of course, size does matter, no arguing about that. In a bat cave I would go for a PJ, in all other scenarios - no way. Been in that purgatory for more than 20 years. Any bright scene ruins the image completely. You get used to it, but it's there.
 

yvv

Active Member
doesn’t matter how good an oled looks if it’s postage stamp sized

Been tempted to react to this rather provocative statement but, in reality, I know what you mean. Big screen from long distance is more impressive than small screen from short distance, even if the viewing angle is the same. Food for thought for a neuropsychologist.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Been tempted to react to this rather provocative statement but, in reality, I know what you mean. Big screen from long distance is more impressive that small screen from short distance, even if the viewing angle is the same. Food for thought for a neuropsychologist.


Its not provocative. Sorry if my metaphor causes offense to you or your TV.. that honestly isn't the intention as I own a 65'' C9 myself lol. It just really is very very very small compared to a PJ. Honestly I think its just people getting too emotionally attached to their technology! I'm not trying to cause offense here at all so apologies again if you found it provocative.

typical 65'' OLED to a 120'' projector

I honestly think the 65'' looks very small in comparison but maybe its just me. Add some black bars to the 65'' TV and surely its game over.


But once again.. I do apologise if I came across as provocative. Not my intention at all.. just talking metaphor wise from what I think in my mind. Not to demean someone's purchase (and I apologise to my own C9 too).

I've only had experience with CRT and DVLA projectors. Current JVC N series PJ have atrocious tinting from my experience and it is well documented in the other forum. Unfortunately never had an LCD PJ because of subpar contrast , or a DLP because of the "rainbow effect" sensitivity. I've had almost all generations of DVLA projectors (Sony and JVC) and they all had convergence, uniformity and tinting problems however slight, We should not forget about the screen (another set of problems).

Of course, size does matter, no arguing about that. In a bat cave I would go for a PJ, in all other scenarios - no way. Been in that purgatory for more than 20 years. Any bright scene ruins the image completely. You get used to it, but it's there.


No doubt projection isn't perfect. I've found with an ALR screen bright scenes have been PLENTY bright with the Epson 9300 (just a stop gap PJ for me until JVC HDMI 2.1 N series drops next year.. or the year after). Dark scene performance isn't near the OLED but it also doesn't have 5% greyscale which rears its head etc.

My dissapointment with the OLEDs for 2020 were dark scenes could be affected by 5% grey and bright scenes could be the victim of the white DSE grid pattern. My CX was a TERRIBLE sample so okay.. but my GX 5% grey slide was probably better than 95% of the forums, but it STILL exhibited banding on certain scenes pretty obstrustively.

At the end of the day, sadly in my experience both OLEDs and Projectors have their flaws but OLED's banding, motion issues with 24p content and DSE seemed more in 'intrusive' on the experience. Yes, it has better PQ (both HDR and SDE). I'd never deny that, but that PQ comes at a cost of size, immersion and for my own personal experience how intrusive it is.

I'm still a MASSIVE fan of deep blacks, infinite contrast ratio, but I've learnt to appreciate for my own personal home cinema likes, there is more to a picture than deep blacks and contrast. For some content, I still think its soooo neccesary (aka video games) but films and TV shows, I'm not as convinced as I once was.

Also on the mention of size, its weird that I only really appreciated HDR tone mapping and colour gradients when it was blown up to gigantic proportions infront of my face. There is something about size being able exhibit and show the new advances better than smaller screen.. if u get what i mean?

For example a 4K image on my 65'' OLED is a bit sharper than the blu-ray. Looks good. Looks sharp.. looks 4K. but on a 100'' or 120'' image it allows the finer details to be fully appreciating because they're so freaking big lol.
 

yvv

Active Member
But once again.. I do apologise if I came across as provocative. Not my intention at all.. just talking metaphor wise from what I think in my mind. Not to demean someone's purchase (and I apologise to my own C9 too).

No apology is needed.)))) For some reason the smilies were greyed out and still are so I couldn't add them. It's me who should apologise then.
 

yvv

Active Member
Also on the mention of size, its weird that I only really appreciated HDR tone mapping and colour gradients when it was blown up to gigantic proportions infront of my face. There is something about size being able exhibit and show the new advances better than smaller screen.. if u get what i mean?

I do. HDR is another can of worms. Neither OLED or PJs can do it accurately anyway. Panasonic is the only OLED brand who does it convincingly enough. PJs are too dim. poor dynamic range. It's like listening to low bit-rate mp3s. We call it "cinematic"))).

My main argument is about suitability of front projection in a living room. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a decent PJ, like a JVC, for example, because you would not get any benefit from the improved contrast except in some specific conditions, like very dark scenes with no highlights.
 

yvv

Active Member
My dissapointment with the OLEDs for 2020 were dark scenes could be affected by 5% grey and bright scenes could be the victim of the white DSE grid pattern. My CX was a TERRIBLE sample so okay.. but my GX 5% grey slide was probably better than 95% of the forums, but it STILL exhibited banding on certain scenes pretty obstrustively.

So true. I sit 5ft away from a 55" Panasonic , the HZ1000, and the picture is perfect down to 1% stimuli. 65" and up are not good this year.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I do. HDR is another can of worms. Neither OLED or PJs can do it accurately anyway. Panasonic is the only OLED brand who does it convincingly enough. PJs are too dim. poor dynamic range. It's like listening to low bit-rate mp3s. We call it "cinematic"))).

My main argument is about suitability of front projection in a living room. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a decent PJ, like a JVC, for example, because you would not get any benefit from the improved contrast except in some specific conditions, like very dark scenes with no highlights.

No offense but what projectors have you used recently? A lot of what you're stating I agree with.. for my old Sony HW40Es but definitely not for current crop of modern decent projectors. They're anything but 'dim and cinematic' now.

My PJ causes me to squint and look away from the screen more than my OLED did in the dark; especially with MADVR tonemapped HDR. Its something to do with the human iris and the brightness fluctuations. An OLED for example will open your iris up more than a PJ (obviously) then when a bright scene from an OLED would come on, I wouldn't even look away because sadly OLED's can't do bright scenes re: HDR due to ABL. The PJ and my LCD 902B absolutely make me look away due to the brightness fluctuation.

Also I'm not sure if it was you or someone else but have you used latest MADVR builds or a Lumagen? The MADVR tone mapping is a few tiers above LG's offerings. I actually did a few tests whilst I had the LG in-house in the room with the PJ and the LG's inability to resolve highlight detail with its own DTM compared to when I enabled MADVR was startling. There is a huge following on AVSforums which use MADVR with LG OLEDs, its that good. Sorry if it wasn't you who said this though and if it was somone else.


Thats an example of ALR screen + PJ, morning time around 11AM, curtain drawn, door open. Plenty bright enough for casual viewing IMO. And this is obviously a budget 9300. So although to work a JVC in optimal conditions is obviously ideal, I'd still take it over an OLED or Epson if I wanted to down the projection route for the superior motion, lens, 3D, DTM etc.

I think there is more to home cinema than black level and contrast basically (although I would definitely put a JVC if I could into a dark room, just as I wouldn't put an OLED TV in a room opposite all-glass windows a pool in California lol).
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I do. HDR is another can of worms. Neither OLED or PJs can do it accurately anyway. Panasonic is the only OLED brand who does it convincingly enough. PJs are too dim. poor dynamic range. It's like listening to low bit-rate mp3s. We call it "cinematic"))).

My main argument is about suitability of front projection in a living room. It wouldn't make any sense to invest in a decent PJ, like a JVC, for example, because you would not get any benefit from the improved contrast except in some specific conditions, like very dark scenes with no highlights.


I agree.

OLEDs are so close in regards to HDR. Their reproduction of specular highlight detail is second to none with their pixel level control but the major drawback for HDR material for me with the 77'' CX/GX was HDR impact. There was none. No shocking brightness, no thunderstorms which made you squint. ABL is a real pain in the butt. Otherwise HDR is absolutely wonderful on an OLED but that missing element.. is a bit dissapointing if u come from a tech which provides u with that (i came from a 902B).

It was all very... I'm using your term here.. 'cinematic'. It looks lovely, it looks right.. but it didn't have that pop/wow/HDR impact which I have experienced on LCDs.

On my 902B and even the PJ with MADVR DTM (I know you might doubt this but I can explain in detail why the PJ makes you squint and the OLED doesn't... when a scene gets bright on an OLED, it actually gets dimmer due to ABL. Whilst on a PJ.. it really does make me squint).


PJs and LCDs have obviously technical limitations with HDR. I'd say a good LCD panel, if it can control its backlight, can get very close to some amazing HDR experiences but I've yet to see an LCD panel be able to control its backlight.

Its funny that the best HDR experiences I've had throughout an entire film has been on the PJ with HDR enabled (Mulan, DTM MADVR) but I think its more to do with big image = big appreciation of the small advantages. I think a JVC projector can absolutely do some great HDR because it has the contrast in the panel to do specular highlight brightness a lot better than the cheaper Epsons.



IMO OLEDs are the king of HDR, but its just sad that they miss the higher end of the spectrum of HDR in the bright scenes but absolutely nail everything else.

I sadly haven't seen a JVC NX7/9 do HDR or a X7900+ with DTM do HDR in a treated room. I imagine that would run them pretty close but I don't have the blessings..

Then again.. I don't imagine any device available ATM coming close to OLED HDR in dark scenes. Its just beautiful. Starfield on an OLED is WOW.
 

yvv

Active Member
No offense but what projectors have you used recently?

JVC DLA-N5, calibrated to 100 nits for SDR REC.709. In HDR real peak brightness was around 200 nits according to my measurements, on a unity gain screen. I calibrate my displays myself and have all the software and measuring equipment, colourimeter , spectrophotometer etc.

Just realized you use a high-gain screen. Explains the squinting. But they are not accurate those screens and have brightness uniformity problems and viewing angle is critical. Are you using the PJ for daytime viewing as well?
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
JVC DLA-N5, calibrated to 100 nits for SDR REC.709. In HDR real peak brightness was around 200 nits according to my measurements, on a unity gain screen. I calibrate my displays myself and have all the software and measuring equipment, colourimeter , spectrophotometer etc.

Just realized you use a high-gain screen. Explains the squinting. But they are not accurate those screens and have brightness uniformity problems and viewing angle is critical. Are you using the PJ for daytime viewing as well?

I mix and match. I have the OLED, 902B and PJ during daytime based on whatever room I'm in. Try not to watch anything during daytime hours though.. as I should be working or being productive.. I should ban myself from this site tbh.. :D
 

fathergll

Member
My goal is to get a BVM-X300 and sit 2 ft from it.

maxresdefault.jpg
 

popelife

Active Member
Amusingly, I received this from Amphion today. To be clear, it is a demo area in a shop (demo-ing IMAX Enhanced apparently. People are still talking about that?) and it’s not Amphion’s idea, it’s just a retailer that happens to be using their speakers, but it illustrates the size/viewing distance issue. That looks relaxing o_O. Careful you don’t kick the TV off the wall!
8E414563-D766-47C8-95A3-93F726A7C495.jpeg
 

popelife

Active Member
Stutter/Judder.. tomato, tomato ;).

You brought the issue up, but thanks for that insight. Makes the hour or so I spent trying to write a potted history of image judder for you totally worth it.

I agree on paper LCDs have worse motion resolution BUT in real world terms, it causes BETTER motion in difficult pans where an OLED falls apart.

LCD blur doesn't mean LCD has better motion, but I accept that you personally prefer the effect when LCD hides some 24fps judder. But it does mean that the overall image is not quite what the filmmaker intended.

Like most HT enthusiasts, my aim has always been to try and get as close as I can to the cinema experience at home. There is no blur between frames in a 35mm projector, so if panning shots exhibit the same minor judder as I would see in the cinema, then I'm fine with that.

The thing is, we talk about 24fps judder like it's the worst thing imaginable, but it's an inherent part of film production, it's very minor, and the vast majority of film goers never notice it. If you want to see what judder really meant for home cinema fans in the 90s, try putting up with 3:2 pulldown at 60Hz. Thankfully 3:2 has mostly been resigned to the big bin of bad technology thanks to blu-ray and modern flat panel TVs. (though streaming boxes... watch out)

I assume you realise that film-makers often introduce EXTRA judder in some scenes - typically action scenes - because it gives it a particular look that they want. That judder is supposed to be there.

I'm not saying OLED motion is perfect. I don't know if you experimented with the BFI modes on the GX and CXs you had before you returned them, but if you like motion on plasmas, you might have liked OLED as well. As I've said before, the BFI on my C8 improves 24fps motion and makes it look more like film, but it also seems to drag the gamma out of line quite a lot, so it gets a bit tiresome and I tend to avoid it now.

The bottomline for me is that I've never had massive issues with LCD motion but OLED I have... in 24p content.... for the cinematic stuff (which is 99% of TV and film)... its a bit of an achilles heel. Is it a dealbreaker? Of course not!! OLEDs are amazing despite this.

So you've had "massive issues" with OLED motion, and apparently "OLEDs fall over and cry" with 24fps" and your Epson projector's motion is "1000x better than the LG OLEDs" and the "major drawback of the 77" GX and CX is they have no HDR impact" and "OLEDs can't do bright scenes and HDR due to ABL". Yet OLEDs are "amazing".

Sounds to me like you need to chill out a bit. :)

I can timestamp the issue at hand in a film for better illustration.

I'd be interested in that actually, yes please.

I've heard JVC motion is only second to Sony so I think you'll be in for a treat

Yup. Looked good in the couple of demos I've had, and feedback from owners re motion has been very positive, so I'm expecting good things.

PS I discovered why the LG C8 has smooth 24fps... because I was wrong, the panel refresh is 120Hz, not 60Hz. So no pulldown or other tricks required.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
You brought the issue up, but thanks for that insight. Makes the hour or so I spent trying to write a potted history of image judder for you totally worth it.



LCD blur doesn't mean LCD has better motion, but I accept that you personally prefer the effect when LCD hides some 24fps judder. But it does mean that the overall image is not quite what the filmmaker intended.

Like most HT enthusiasts, my aim has always been to try and get as close as I can to the cinema experience at home. There is no blur between frames in a 35mm projector, so if panning shots exhibit the same minor judder as I would see in the cinema, then I'm fine with that.

The thing is, we talk about 24fps judder like it's the worst thing imaginable, but it's an inherent part of film production, it's very minor, and the vast majority of film goers never notice it. If you want to see what judder really meant for home cinema fans in the 90s, try putting up with 3:2 pulldown at 60Hz. Thankfully 3:2 has mostly been resigned to the big bin of bad technology thanks to blu-ray and modern flat panel TVs. (though streaming boxes... watch out)

I assume you realise that film-makers often introduce EXTRA judder in some scenes - typically action scenes - because it gives it a particular look that they want. That judder is supposed to be there.

I'm not saying OLED motion is perfect. I don't know if you experimented with the BFI modes on the GX and CXs you had before you returned them, but if you like motion on plasmas, you might have liked OLED as well. As I've said before, the BFI on my C8 improves 24fps motion and makes it look more like film, but it also seems to drag the gamma out of line quite a lot, so it gets a bit tiresome and I tend to avoid it now.



So you've had "massive issues" with OLED motion, and apparently "OLEDs fall over and cry" with 24fps" and your Epson projector's motion is "1000x better than the LG OLEDs" and the "major drawback of the 77" GX and CX is they have no HDR impact" and "OLEDs can't do bright scenes and HDR due to ABL". Yet OLEDs are "amazing".

Sounds to me like you need to chill out a bit. :)



I'd be interested in that actually, yes please.



Yup. Looked good in the couple of demos I've had, and feedback from owners re motion has been very positive, so I'm expecting good things.

PS I discovered why the LG C8 has smooth 24fps... because I was wrong, the panel refresh is 120Hz, not 60Hz. So no pulldown or other tricks required.



1917, 1 hour 2 minutes 15 seconds (approx)

The guy comes out of the vehicle, says bye to commander then there is a panning sequences where it pans around to some trees and destroyed buildings
 

sebna

Member
Thanks, will check it out.
Are you getting JVC PJ for yourself? I got one few months back and absolutely love it. The difference in motion reproduction shows how crippled 24fps really is on Oled. But it is comparing one of the best 24 motions to one of the most affected by problems or if you prefer technological choices of the designers :).

I am big fan of Oled but 24fps is its weakest aspect IMHO.
 

popelife

Active Member
Are you getting JVC PJ for yourself?

Yes, order for N7 placed, though not expecting it until next year some time. Usual supply constraints.

I got one few months back and absolutely love it. The difference in motion reproduction shows how crippled 24fps really is on Oled. But it is comparing one of the best 24 motions to one of the most affected by problems or if you prefer technological choices of the designers :).

Glad you like it. Don’t make me excited again, I’d got over the anticipation a week or so ago...

I am big fan of Oled but 24fps is its weakest aspect IMHO.

As you’ll gather, I’m not really seeing that, except when compared to plasma. My old 50VT65, for all it’s limitations, looked more like film than any other TV I’d owned. That’s why I was originally thinking I’d upgrade to a CX or GX, for the improved BFI. Until I did the maths and realised a 77”, although big, wasn’t going to cut it for what I’m trying to achieve.

which OLED do you have?
 

sebna

Member
Yes, order for N7 placed, though not expecting it until next year some time. Usual supply constraints.



Glad you like it. Don’t make me excited again, I’d got over the anticipation a week or so ago...



As you’ll gather, I’m not really seeing that, except when compared to plasma. My old 50VT65, for all it’s limitations, looked more like film than any other TV I’d owned. That’s why I was originally thinking I’d upgrade to a CX or GX, for the improved BFI. Until I did the maths and realised a 77”, although big, wasn’t going to cut it for what I’m trying to achieve.

which OLED do you have?

C6 and C9 both 65"

Maybe you got used it so much that it does not bothered you but if N7 is anything like x7900 in this regard then you are in for a treat and I have a feeling surprise discovery of how weak 24fps really is on a LG Oled.

JVC is vastly superior in this regard. I can watch 133"@2.6m for hours with JVC when Oled @1.8m wears me down after less then a full length movie.
 
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