I went from a 77'' OLED... to Projection.. a bit of an essay...

mb3195

Distinguished Member
If to go by what Star Wars depicted it must be pretty loud ;)

On more serious note it is a good question. I would imagine it will vary model to model as laser or not probably some cooling will be required when high powered electronics are at play.

@mb3195 could probably let us know about the difference of his Sony Vs x7900 :)

The Sony is slightly quieter than my 7900. The fan noise is more consistent so becomes less noticeable. I also run my laser in 100% output all of the time, whereas I had my 7900 on low lamp most of the time. If I drop the laser to 80% it becomes almost silent, but the noise at 100% isn’t loud enough for me to worry about.
 

fathergll

Member
TBH I think once we get into 100'' range and above, PJs just simply run away with it aslong as you have a semi decent environment for me personally. Its just... wow.

A 77'' OLED never had that wow factor for me or anyone that came to the house. It was just 'ooh big TV'. The 65'' OLED and 65'' LCD 902B are just... average TVs IMO for experience.


Yeah the size is tough to make it impressive. The only way I found 65-55" TVs to really work for emersion is to have them in tiny rooms with close seating. Still not the same and it's really limited on seating(good for bachelors heh) but works pretty well. A top notch TV like a 65" HZ2000 would offer a really good experience with a 7ft distance.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Yeah the size is tough to make it impressive. The only way I found 65-55" TVs to really work for emersion is to have them in tiny rooms with close seating. Still not the same and it's really limited on seating(good for bachelors heh) but works pretty well. A top notch TV like a 65" HZ2000 would offer a really good experience with a 7ft distance.
I have my 65'' C9 about 1.5m away and its still not impressive. Its just a nice TV.

Don't get me wrong, Planet Earth looks absolutely stunning on it but it doesn't hold a candle to the experience and compliments a £1000 Epson 9300 gets.

Size is sadly a big thing and seating distance alone doesn't augment this. Trust me, I tried. I tried with a 902B at 65'' and I tried with a 77'' GX/CX and it just doesn't provide the same experience which is sad and sucks. There is something about an entire wall being dominated by an image coming at you (especially in 3D) which is just groundbreaking.

55'', 65'' and 77'' TVs are good at what they say they're good at; being TVs. But I don't think they come close to emulating or upsetting the home cinema market who want cinema displays. Home cinema enthusiasts are still buying their PJs and the 77'' OLED doesn't stop that
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Yeah the size is tough to make it impressive. The only way I found 65-55" TVs to really work for emersion is to have them in tiny rooms with close seating. Still not the same and it's really limited on seating(good for bachelors heh) but works pretty well. A top notch TV like a 65" HZ2000 would offer a really good experience with a 7ft distance.

I think a 65'' TV at a short distance offers a good experience but so does a 77'' at 2.5M. I'm not saying someone can't have a good experience with a TV - of course they can and I'd be an idiot so they couldn't because at the end of the day, the equipment we have is just a platform for the content to shine but I don't think the experience of a TV in 65'', 55'' or 77'' is comparable to projection.

These guys did a similar transition re: OLED -> Projection and they honestly half arsed it room treatment wise and didn't maximise the PQ from their amazing PJ they bought because they obviously have kids and don't care as much as we do about this stuff.

77'' OLED

Upgraded to a projector

They even did the whole buy expensive PJ and put LED lights on when we watch it thing .. which i will never understand lol.
 
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fathergll

Member
I think a 65'' TV at a short distance offers a good experience but so does a 77'' at 2.5M.


Right....I just mean the smaller TVs tend to fare better for uniformity and something like a HZ2000 is going to be better than the 77" LG for IQ and attributes you had an issue with on the 77" LG ( assuming you can get a clean one unlike some such as @Slugsy01 )
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Right....I just mean the smaller TVs tend to fare better for uniformity and something like a HZ2000 is going to be better than the 77" LG for IQ and attributes you had an issue with on the 77" LG ( assuming you can get a clean one unlike some such as @Slugsy01 )


Definitely. Smaller panels just generally seem to have much tighter QC. I am venturing a bet that OLED has some inherent flaws that just don't show up on small TVs because they're so small. The grid like whites and the weird texture/DSE I honestly didn't notice on my 65'' but the 77'' its very obvious, then looking back at the 65'' you can JUST about see it...
 

n1ghtwish

Member
If I had a room like that one a couple of posts up I'd definitely consider projection, but unfortunately my lounge is really not the right shape for a dedicated media space.

77" OLED TV will have to do for now :)
 

popelife

Active Member
The conclusion I reached recently? Size is everything 😜

I remember 25 years ago or so, when the highest quality source you could get was laserdisc, I went to several demos of what were then the best projectors available. That meant CRT projection - there WAS nothing else. Add a Faroudja line doubler. The demo material would be a letterboxed NTSC laserdisc - The Abyss quite often, or the original giant Star Wars trilogy box set.

A setup like that would cost over £20k just for the video side of things. For a 4:3 projector doing a maximum of 480p with a letterboxed image in the middle of it. Projected onto a 100” screen.

Guess what. The picture was awful.

Guess what part 2: It was still incredible.

(Part 3: we eventually bought a lightly used Barco 800, then an 808)

Ok, that kind of image would be unacceptable now, but what struck me at the time was that in spite of the picture shortcomings, it still felt like the movies. It was still “immersive”. Movies I knew really well seemed like a whole different film at that size. You could get 50” back projection TVs that seemed huge and obviously had much better brightness and contrast, but even with the front-projector’s dim and blurry image, the SIZE of the screen in the front projection demos turned the experience into something else.

Now that we have 77” OLEDs, the gap between the “TV” and projection experience is much closer - which was the trigger for my question in a different thread - but I think there’s a threshold in perceived picture size where the experience changes from one thing to another. FWIW I think that threshold is when your seating distance is 3x the picture height. Remembering that most movies these days are at 2.40:1 ratio (and even a lot of TV content is 2.0:1) that means you’d have to sit really very close to a 77” 16:9 screen to cross that threshold.

Watching a 77” OLED at any normal distance is absolutely fine of course - we are so spoiled by technology these days I’m a bit embarrassed that we have these discussions - but we’ve all had the experience of sitting down in our booked seats at the cinema, the film starting, and suddenly realising that we should have picked seats several rows nearer the screen... and that’s how I feel watching most big-screen TVs. It’s fine, great even, but there’s something missing.

It’s quite enlightening when you do the maths for your own living space (as I’ve done for the umpteenth time recently). If you’re good with spreadsheets you can run thru lots of options very quickly.

A 16:9 screen with a 95” diagonal is about where things flip from “TV” to “movies” for my current situation.

It will be fun to see how soon that size of TV becomes affordable - that’ll really start to change the picture if you’ll pardon the pun. But right now, if you’re after a genuine movie experience at home, projection is, in my opinion, still the only practical way to do it.

(And hey, just as I finished writing this, my new projector lift showed up! Once more into the rabbit hole...)
 

popelife

Active Member
By the way, if you are always finding flaws in OLED TVs, then I’m sure you’ll also be finding flaws with any projector too. It’s just that the image size tends to make the shortcomings more acceptable - broadly speaking you’re sacrificing a degree of image quality and convenience for sheer image size. Depending on what you’re trying to achieve, it either is or isn’t a trade worth making. Which is why, after what said in my last post, I think a lot of people will still be happier with one of the current 77” OLEDs - especially when compared with a projector of a similar budget.
 

SilentSniper

Active Member
(Firstly, an OLED is DEFINITELY part of my plans because I love gaming on the rare occasions I get time and HDMI 2.1, 120hz, Gsync is just too god damn good to give up. Games REALLY benefit from infinite contrast and deep blacks because they use them so often. Okay, that is out of the way.)

For many HT enthusiasts, 77'' OLED might be near end-game until we get 88'' OLED panels. I have owned by the LG OLED CX & GX. In my time with these phenomenal, and expensive, TVs, I feel fairly well positioned to give an assessment on them.

For a bit of history, I bought an Epson 9400. Its HDR was very infuriating, having to use the slider. For video games, it was terrible in digital cinema mode. HDR tone mapping was awful. Then it stopped working. So I went to OLED which was always my personal end-game in a small room. I had a 77'' CX. It was very bandy. I had a 77'' GX, it had a very clear texture and DSE on whites and other problematic colours, along side one day it just decided to not turn on. Banding wise my uniformity of the panel was one of the best on the forum and indeed probably the world but I still saw bands on problematic content.

Today my replacement 77'' CX arrived. The wall mount they refused to put on because it wasn't JL sold. I just decided there and then, return it as I'm moving house and I'd rather have my full £4.5k back. Nothing bad about the installers, great guys, nothing bad about JL or even the failed TV.. I'm moving in 4-8 weeks, might as well return. However, I am the type of person to get full fidelity, I'd live with the issue of moving it in 4-8 weeks if I could use it over December/January...

But put simply whilst my broken GX which returned to turn on was out of action, I used my Sony HW40ES projector to play some old TV shows. The HW40ES was lightyears away from the PQ of the LG's in terms of blacks, contrast, brightness but it had a beautiful natural filmic presence, motion and handling of content which the LG didn't.

So I decided to invest in an Epson 9300. This is old model of the 9400 I owned without 18gbps HDMI (so no HDR gaming which the 9400 failed on) and no HDR slider, Instead I used DTM via MADVR for HDR content (like an OLEDs DTM).



Now, talking about OLEDs specifically. OLEDs have the deepest most beautiful blacks, pixel level control of colour and light with an infinite contrast ratio. So it their only weakness size? No.

There are three issues which affected my time with OLED TVs:
1. Banding - its bad. Even a good panel like my GX, I could see it in certain content like Lion King 2 or a few scenes in Moana.
2. DSE - this white dirty texture is, put simply, horrible. I only noticed it on the GX but AVSforum users say their panels have it too. Its not nice and can ruin some content.
3. Film Motion (24fps) - its bad. Its not terrible but its not good. Its below average. Sure, some people don't notice it but I can tell you a few scenes in 1917 and you'll notice it right away.
4. ABL - affects bright scenes, limiting light output to low nit values for low impact AND affects dark scenes for some weird reason




_______________________________

Now, all of these issues alone are small but add them together, and they're pretty big and I'll explain why... via applying these issues to individual use-cases.

Films - films are 24fps. OLEDs struggle to do 24fps as good as an LCD (because they have a natural motion blur) and a projector. OLEDs have a natural pixel response time which sadly means you will get stutter, judder or whatever you want to call it today.

Dolby Vision - DV when it works, is freaking amazing but every single OLED panel is having issues with DV (whether its floating blacks, flashing bars, flashing colours, an inferior DV representation. So, DV is amazing.. when it works... but when it doesn't, the HDR10 version would be far less irritating.

Anime - Anime's motion is a BIG issue for OLEDs again with some inherent natural stutter mixed in with some OLED induced stuttering. Combine this with BLOCK colours which can show off the DSE very easily and LOTS of panning which shows of the DSE, and you're in some trouble.

TV shows - TV shows work pretty well on OLEDs. 24p issue but its not induced too much.

HDR - HDR is amazing on an OLED. Pixel level control leaves it being perfect.

Bright scenes - bright scenes are limited by ABL (so lack of impact and gradual dimming) and the dirty screen effect. Also banding seems to rear its head on specific colours which sucks as well (not specifically dark ones).

Dark Scenes - this is a big one. Dark scenes are amazing on an OLED, if its there is no jarring movement or challenging movement which can sometimes induce heavy banding. Don't get me wrong, 98% of the time dark scenes are phenomenal and best in class, but when they are bad, they are god damn bad.

Gaming - games are AMAZING on an OLED. Instant pixel response time etc. But lets not ignore the multitude of HDMI 2.1 based issues LG have faced. Yes LG have fixed a lot of them but a lot are inexcusable such as the heightened blacks in VRR mode, the stutter which only got eliminated recently.



___________________________________

My experience with projection is the polar opposite. Projection doesn't have the best blacks, it doesn't have the best contrast, it doesn't even have specular highlight brightness outside of its native panel contrast. But what does it have? Well specific to use-cases, its utterly fantastic.

Films - 24p content handed like a champ, no problems, no issues, a much more 'filmic' representation with superior motion handling, picture processing, detail retrieval due to the size.
Anime - no motion issues at all. Its just put simply, easy and beautiful with the only texture issue being your screen.
TV shows - great, no issues.
Bright scenes - fantastic, no issues, throws more perceived high brightness scenes which will leave you squinting than an OLED in a bright room. (
Dark scenes - amazing shadow detail and retrieval. Inferior blacks, no banding. A dark scene on an OLED looks 100x better than on a projector BUT a dark scene on an OLED might distract you with ABL, banding similar to a 5% grey and uniformity issues where a projector simply put won't.
Gaming - OLED wins. Projectors are crap at them compared to an OLED outside of the JVC native 4K ones which have native resolution. But interestingly, if I ask friends and family, they are blown away by the PJ with games.
3-D - its jaw dropping in a light controlled room with a high brightness PJ shooting a 100 inch projected image at you. I will go on record saying an OLED's infinite contrast ratio HDR has NOTHING and I mean NOTHING on a 3D image. Compare Pacific Rim 3D to Pacific Rim 4K UHD.. no contest which wins. Frozen is magical in 3D, its a film in 2D.

Dolby Vision - big fat fail, it can't do it.
HDR - so, HDR is a mixed bag. It can't do specular highlight detail, its HDR representation isn't accurate, it needs DTM (so really only JVCs and media nuts like myself who have MADVR can pull off HDR so it equals an OLED's type of quality). BUT, I find HDR on a PJ with DTM via MADVR has more meaningful impact from a colour and brightness perspective than my 77'' OLED at times. Is the OLED better at HDR? Yes, its the king of HDR but... the space between the two is smaller than I would have expected.

Now I'd like to say everything I've stated is WITHOUT taking into account a projector is GIGANTIC and an OLED is tiny.
I've only spoken about picture processing for the most part...


So just some food for thought really. I think as good as OLEDs are, their few flaws can really ruin the majority of someone's content. For example, why have the best blacks but worry about if your 5% grey slide banding is going to come on the screen? OLEDs are fantastic but there two issues are with dark (5% grey banding) and bright (ABL limiting peak brightness, DSE, Grid patterns) content. Once we take into account those, I think we're in trouble.


Now, I will move back to OLED at some point, but I am not giving up the projector as I hope to grow my screen to 110 and maybe 130 inches.
On the topic of HDR, I think HDR is absolutely jaw dropping on an OLED.

DV, I think is just too much of a mixed bag. For example, I watched 'you' in DV and the episode multiple time faded to... grey. Yes. not fade to black on an OLED with beautfiul blacks. It faded to freaking grey and was very very very irritating. ABL also reared it ugly head leading to some annoying flickering. I also have had issues with some HDR titles on OLEDs like Mad Max, Lucy... the raised blacks just really p*ss me off an on OLED because it stands out so obviously lol.

Looking at it, I think an OLED is the perfect Netflix (DV and HDR central) & Gaming display.

Next year I'll try to get my hands on a JVC once I can 'treat' a room and compare it to an OLED in terms of subjective qualitative assessment on the film and gaming experience.
Interesting read. I have a 9300 Epson from 2017 and got a 77CX yesterday to accompany my 48cx on my desk.

My Epson broke so I am sending it for repair. I wanted to upgrade my pj but want one that can be good for gaming and came across the optoma uhd50x. Although a decent gaming projector, it was super loud and the lens was 1/3 the size for the Epson.

So I am happy with the 9300 on 120" inch screen and the CX, but a proper 3k or 8k pj that can game is really needed andacking in the marketplace.
 

SilentSniper

Active Member
Where can I buy 3d classes for my 9300? I have never watched a 3d movie on it.

Also can the 9300 take a 60hz 4k signal as I need to upgrade my cat 5 to hdmi baluns?

Thanks
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
By the way, if you are always finding flaws in OLED TVs, then I’m sure you’ll also be finding flaws with any projector too. It’s just that the image size tends to make the shortcomings more acceptable - broadly speaking you’re sacrificing a degree of image quality and convenience for sheer image size. Depending on what you’re trying to achieve, it either is or isn’t a trade worth making. Which is why, after what said in my last post, I think a lot of people will still be happier with one of the current 77” OLEDs - especially when compared with a projector of a similar budget.


Not really. I haven't been able to find much flaws in the projector other than black level and contrast lacking compared to OLED. Motion is better, no 5% grey banding, no ABL, no DSE.

I think most people will be happier with a TV period over a projector because you need space, time, light control, a dedicated room to get the best out of one.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
The conclusion I reached recently? Size is everything 😜

I remember 25 years ago or so, when the highest quality source you could get was laserdisc, I went to several demos of what were then the best projectors available. That meant CRT projection - there WAS nothing else. Add a Faroudja line doubler. The demo material would be a letterboxed NTSC laserdisc - The Abyss quite often, or the original giant Star Wars trilogy box set.

A setup like that would cost over £20k just for the video side of things. For a 4:3 projector doing a maximum of 480p with a letterboxed image in the middle of it. Projected onto a 100” screen.

Guess what. The picture was awful.

Guess what part 2: It was still incredible.

(Part 3: we eventually bought a lightly used Barco 800, then an 808)

Ok, that kind of image would be unacceptable now, but what struck me at the time was that in spite of the picture shortcomings, it still felt like the movies. It was still “immersive”. Movies I knew really well seemed like a whole different film at that size. You could get 50” back projection TVs that seemed huge and obviously had much better brightness and contrast, but even with the front-projector’s dim and blurry image, the SIZE of the screen in the front projection demos turned the experience into something else.

Now that we have 77” OLEDs, the gap between the “TV” and projection experience is much closer - which was the trigger for my question in a different thread - but I think there’s a threshold in perceived picture size where the experience changes from one thing to another. FWIW I think that threshold is when your seating distance is 3x the picture height. Remembering that most movies these days are at 2.40:1 ratio (and even a lot of TV content is 2.0:1) that means you’d have to sit really very close to a 77” 16:9 screen to cross that threshold.

Watching a 77” OLED at any normal distance is absolutely fine of course - we are so spoiled by technology these days I’m a bit embarrassed that we have these discussions - but we’ve all had the experience of sitting down in our booked seats at the cinema, the film starting, and suddenly realising that we should have picked seats several rows nearer the screen... and that’s how I feel watching most big-screen TVs. It’s fine, great even, but there’s something missing.

It’s quite enlightening when you do the maths for your own living space (as I’ve done for the umpteenth time recently). If you’re good with spreadsheets you can run thru lots of options very quickly.

A 16:9 screen with a 95” diagonal is about where things flip from “TV” to “movies” for my current situation.

It will be fun to see how soon that size of TV becomes affordable - that’ll really start to change the picture if you’ll pardon the pun. But right now, if you’re after a genuine movie experience at home, projection is, in my opinion, still the only practical way to do it.

(And hey, just as I finished writing this, my new projector lift showed up! Once more into the rabbit hole...)



Haha. I think 77'' was not enough for me from a 2.5-2.8M viewing distance for films. For TV shows and gaming it was fine, but it wasn't immersive or breathtaking. It was just good.

 

yvv

Active Member
Not really. I haven't been able to find much flaws in the projector other than black level and contrast lacking compared to OLED. Motion is better, no 5% grey banding, no ABL, no DSE.

I think most people will be happier with a TV period over a projector because you need space, time, light control, a dedicated room to get the best out of one.

Add to that limited colour space for UHD and what is left? SIze? Uniformity and tinting is usually much worse as well but that depends on the technology and model. Colour, contrast and black level are cornerstones of image quality. Also, the ability to reproduce HDR or DV as close to EOTF as possible is a more modern requirement. MadVR's DTM is very very far from the ideal. I've been experimenting with the beta builds of it for a couple of years now and never use it for actual watching it's that inaccurate and buggy. And the 5% grey slide or DSE are not very relevant because there is no true black anyway. Try to watch GOT S08E03 on a projector and on OLED an you will know what I mean. I did.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Add to that limited colour space for UHD and what is left? SIze? Uniformity and tinting is usually much worse as well but that depends on the technology and model. Colour, contrast and black level are cornerstones of image quality. Also, the ability to reproduce HDR or DV as close to EOTF as possible is a more modern requirement. MadVR's DTM is very very far from the ideal. I've been experimenting with the beta builds of it for a couple of years now and never use it for actual watching it's that inaccurate and buggy. And the 5% grey slide or DSE are not very relevant because there is no true black anyway. Try to watch GOT S08E03 on a projector and on OLED an you will know what I mean. I did.

I had both OLED and projector :)

doesn’t matter how good an oled looks if it’s postage stamp sized. Every high end home cinema has a projector. :)

trust me if the 77 OLED was good for me for home cinema more than PJ it would still be here. I will still buy another OLeD but it will be for open lounge , not home cinema room.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Add to that limited colour space for UHD and what is left? SIze? Uniformity and tinting is usually much worse as well but that depends on the technology and model. Colour, contrast and black level are cornerstones of image quality. Also, the ability to reproduce HDR or DV as close to EOTF as possible is a more modern requirement. MadVR's DTM is very very far from the ideal. I've been experimenting with the beta builds of it for a couple of years now and never use it for actual watching it's that inaccurate and buggy. And the 5% grey slide or DSE are not very relevant because there is no true black anyway. Try to watch GOT S08E03 on a projector and on OLED an you will know what I mean. I did.

madvr DTm is less than ideal? It’s better than LgS

what projectors are you referencing with poor uniformity?

sorry but I think tbh you don’t know what ur talking about, I’ve owned both at the same time.. trust me on my findings. I have little to no ulterior motive.

what exactly have u owned equipment wise and used and compared? Which projectors? Which video processors? Which version of madvr? Which lumagen?
Have u owned 77 inch oled? It is tiny compared to projector.

Of course oled has better colours brightness and hdr. It should do as it’s a postage stamp compared to most projector setups lol..

For reference I still have 65 oled in house. Will buy a 77 gx or 77 Sony hdmi 2.1 77 next year but it won’t be in the cinema room.. lol
 

sebna

Member
Add to that limited colour space for UHD and what is left? SIze? Uniformity and tinting is usually much worse as well but that depends on the technology and model. Colour, contrast and black level are cornerstones of image quality. Also, the ability to reproduce HDR or DV as close to EOTF as possible is a more modern requirement. MadVR's DTM is very very far from the ideal. I've been experimenting with the beta builds of it for a couple of years now and never use it for actual watching it's that inaccurate and buggy. And the 5% grey slide or DSE are not very relevant because there is no true black anyway. Try to watch GOT S08E03 on a projector and on OLED an you will know what I mean. I did.
IMHO there is no comparison between 133" PJ powered screen and Oled. It is not even worth talking about in my book. 65" @1.8m Vs 133"@2.6m
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
IMHO there is no comparison between 133" PJ powered screen and Oled. It is not even worth talking about in my book. 65" @1.8m Vs 133"@2.6m
Thank you!

i find it funny ppl try to debate this as if I didn’t own a 77 oled for nearly 6 months (and I had multiple of them lol at one point)

they are great for reference image.. beautiful image.. but crap motion, crap banding, new 2020 DSE on 77 model.. it’s not the greatest perfect experience combines with small size relative to Pj

There is a different imo between home cinema and a tv .. tv at 77 inch isn’t cinematic from 2.5m seating distance iMo. Just a bit TV.
 
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popelife

Active Member
Not really. I haven't been able to find much flaws in the projector other than black level and contrast lacking compared to OLED. Motion is better, no 5% grey banding, no ABL, no DSE.

Not many flaws other than lower contrast, poorer black level, very little HDR capability. Usually a narrower colour gamut than OLED. Also many projectors in the £3k price range will struggle to distinguish between 5% black and full black, let alone any shades in between, so unsurprisingly tend to be free of artefacts at the black end of the scale. And free of much shadow detail too.

So still flawed, just different flaws.

I don’t see much if anything wrong with motion on OLED (as long as there’s no crazy interpolation going on), particularly if you can use a BFI mode. I don’t get any of the banding or DSE or brightness limiting you describe, though I am using a 65”.

By comparison, there are “flaws” in image quality in a lot of cinemas - usually black crush or washed out shadows from stray lights (fire escape signs being a common culprit). Not to mention cinemas that can’t or won’t put enough light on the screen for the size of screen they’re using. Often I’ve come away looking forward to seeing the movie again at home on an OLED because I know I’ll see details that I missed.

But if you’re always concerned about image “flaws” you’re kind of missing the point, which is to enjoy the movie. It’s a balancing act isn’t it, we all want and expect a certain level of picture quality... yet I know I’ve enjoyed hundreds of movies over the years projected in standard def on a 100” screen... so I can’t really say what the answer is, other than, watch movies, enjoy them, do your thing.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Not many flaws other than lower contrast, poorer black level, very little HDR capability. Usually a narrower colour gamut than OLED. Also many projectors in the £3k price range will struggle to distinguish between 5% black and full black, let alone any shades in between, so unsurprisingly tend to be free of artefacts at the black end of the scale. And free of much shadow detail too.

So still flawed, just different flaws.

I don’t see much if anything wrong with motion on OLED (as long as there’s no crazy interpolation going on), particularly if you can use a BFI mode. I don’t get any of the banding or DSE or brightness limiting you describe, though I am using a 65”.

By comparison, there are “flaws” in image quality in a lot of cinemas - usually black crush or washed out shadows from stray lights (fire escape signs being a common culprit). Not to mention cinemas that can’t or won’t put enough light on the screen for the size of screen they’re using. Often I’ve come away looking forward to seeing the movie again at home on an OLED because I know I’ll see details that I missed.

But if you’re always concerned about image “flaws” you’re kind of missing the point, which is to enjoy the movie. It’s a balancing act isn’t it, we all want and expect a certain level of picture quality... yet I know I’ve enjoyed hundreds of movies over the years projected in standard def on a 100” screen... so I can’t really say what the answer is, other than, watch movies, enjoy them, do your thing.

Yup. Totally agree with your post. The problem is if I’m going to have a ‘flawed experience’ I’d rather do it with a gigantic cinematic image than the small OLED one.

I don’t know why I’m arguing this point too much as inevitably I’ll own Both again.
However I know which one will be more cinematic and which one will be more versatile
 

cineman

Active Member
Well I am currently in a strange position regarding hardware. I have an old (2008) Optoma/Themescene HD75 DLP projector. It's mounted upside down on the ceiling and as it's white, you tend to forget it's even there, most people don't even notice the screen mounted up one end of our incredibly long but narrow, living room.

Well, you forget it's there until you turn it on. In those 12 years of regular usage, we have been simply blown away by the PQ every single time. It says it does 10 bit picture quality and I don't know if that's right or not, but it has deep colour, which knocks the same from our current TV into a cocked hat! We have had an 'award-winning' TV (Sony W2000) since October 2006, which is only 40", but it still looks as good today as when we bought it new, just like the projector, which is on it's third bulb!
I think maybe the fact that we use a mains power conditioner has something to do with that.

Anyway, we currently have a Philips 58" TV, (The "One") which I am 'borrowing' from my son. He wants me to use it until January, when he will be getting his new PS5 console and in the meantime I can calibrate it for him. I have done that and am blown away by the PQ of this fairly big set! However, as Kenshingintoki says, size matters, or he implies that anyway. Having had this TV for about a month and planning to get a 55" Panasonic OLED TV myself, I have already decided that the 55" is off the drawing board! It must be a 65" at least and my partner agrees. Most women I know think that a TV should be a small, tiny, piddling little thing in the corner of the room, but not her, as we watch an awful lot of movies. When we moved in, I noticed that the room is shaped more like a cinema, with it being very long (about 12 metres) and very narrow (about 3 metres) Well the bit we use for our home cinema is anyway and is also very near to what they call the 'golden ratio' for sound. The TV sits proudly in the middle of one of the short walls, with the 92" PJ screen directly above.

PJ wise, I have also been deciding whether I should stick with the old Sony 40" TV and go large with a new PJ or not. I am very impressed by the blurb put out by BenQ. However, the reviews and figures don't seem to match the blurb, although many people say that BenQ have the best 'cinematic' picture out there. Plus the fact that the Panny TV, although it would be a 65", will no doubt soon look very small, even though a 40" TV has been good enough up till now. So I don't know. The PJ when I got it, had incredibly dark black levels and I even reviewed it myself as having, rather than 'dark greys' it had more like 'light blacks' and a fan noise of only 28db. Which only I can hear above fairly loud action movies.

I can't see that projector technology has moved on much since then, except for being able to accept an HDR signal, yet not being able to do much with it! So I am spoilt for choice. As Slugsy01 says "Projectors are awesome" and if anyone is in any doubt about buying a PJ, I would ask whether they want to see a film on TV, or go to the movies and experience a film on the big screen at home, just like in a real cinema? Especially now, with all this virus about and no-one daring to sit in a cinema to risk catching it.

I would love to know what any of you think of this. If you were in my position, what would you do? Panasonic don't have an OLED model larger than 65" in the range I'm interested in anyway and BenQ have a big gap between their large projectors (W11000 & X12000) which are too many pennies for me anyway and the smaller W5700 and W2700, which don't seem to be quite good enough quality wise yet. As it is, I think I'll wait for new models by both companies. I'm not prepared to even consider any other brands, (even though I've been a Sony man for years!) But please feel free to tell me where you think I'm going wrong? Sorry for the long post.
 
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kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Not many flaws other than lower contrast, poorer black level, very little HDR capability. Usually a narrower colour gamut than OLED. Also many projectors in the £3k price range will struggle to distinguish between 5% black and full black, let alone any shades in between, so unsurprisingly tend to be free of artefacts at the black end of the scale. And free of much shadow detail too.

So still flawed, just different flaws.

I don’t see much if anything wrong with motion on OLED (as long as there’s no crazy interpolation going on), particularly if you can use a BFI mode. I don’t get any of the banding or DSE or brightness limiting you describe, though I am using a 65”.

By comparison, there are “flaws” in image quality in a lot of cinemas - usually black crush or washed out shadows from stray lights (fire escape signs being a common culprit). Not to mention cinemas that can’t or won’t put enough light on the screen for the size of screen they’re using. Often I’ve come away looking forward to seeing the movie again at home on an OLED because I know I’ll see details that I missed.

But if you’re always concerned about image “flaws” you’re kind of missing the point, which is to enjoy the movie. It’s a balancing act isn’t it, we all want and expect a certain level of picture quality... yet I know I’ve enjoyed hundreds of movies over the years projected in standard def on a 100” screen... so I can’t really say what the answer is, other than, watch movies, enjoy them, do your thing.

If you can’t see the issue with 24p content on OlED I am happy to link you examples of the stutter and judder. It’s a technical limitation so surprised people don’t notice it and say their oled motioj is perfect. They have the worst 24p motion than pj plasma and lcd
 

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