kenshingintoki
Distinguished Member
(Firstly, an OLED is DEFINITELY part of my plans because I love gaming on the rare occasions I get time and HDMI 2.1, 120hz, Gsync is just too god damn good to give up. Games REALLY benefit from infinite contrast and deep blacks because they use them so often. Okay, that is out of the way.)
For many HT enthusiasts, 77'' OLED might be near end-game until we get 88'' OLED panels. I have owned by the LG OLED CX & GX. In my time with these phenomenal, and expensive, TVs, I feel fairly well positioned to give an assessment on them.
For a bit of history, I bought an Epson 9400. Its HDR was very infuriating, having to use the slider. For video games, it was terrible in digital cinema mode. HDR tone mapping was awful. Then it stopped working. So I went to OLED which was always my personal end-game in a small room. I had a 77'' CX. It was very bandy. I had a 77'' GX, it had a very clear texture and DSE on whites and other problematic colours, along side one day it just decided to not turn on. Banding wise my uniformity of the panel was one of the best on the forum and indeed probably the world but I still saw bands on problematic content.
Today my replacement 77'' CX arrived. The wall mount they refused to put on because it wasn't JL sold. I just decided there and then, return it as I'm moving house and I'd rather have my full £4.5k back. Nothing bad about the installers, great guys, nothing bad about JL or even the failed TV.. I'm moving in 4-8 weeks, might as well return. However, I am the type of person to get full fidelity, I'd live with the issue of moving it in 4-8 weeks if I could use it over December/January...
But put simply whilst my broken GX which returned to turn on was out of action, I used my Sony HW40ES projector to play some old TV shows. The HW40ES was lightyears away from the PQ of the LG's in terms of blacks, contrast, brightness but it had a beautiful natural filmic presence, motion and handling of content which the LG didn't.
So I decided to invest in an Epson 9300. This is old model of the 9400 I owned without 18gbps HDMI (so no HDR gaming which the 9400 failed on) and no HDR slider, Instead I used DTM via MADVR for HDR content (like an OLEDs DTM).
Now, talking about OLEDs specifically. OLEDs have the deepest most beautiful blacks, pixel level control of colour and light with an infinite contrast ratio. So it their only weakness size? No.
There are three issues which affected my time with OLED TVs:
1. Banding - its bad. Even a good panel like my GX, I could see it in certain content like Lion King 2 or a few scenes in Moana.
2. DSE - this white dirty texture is, put simply, horrible. I only noticed it on the GX but AVSforum users say their panels have it too. Its not nice and can ruin some content.
3. Film Motion (24fps) - its bad. Its not terrible but its not good. Its below average. Sure, some people don't notice it but I can tell you a few scenes in 1917 and you'll notice it right away.
4. ABL - affects bright scenes, limiting light output to low nit values for low impact AND affects dark scenes for some weird reason
_______________________________
Now, all of these issues alone are small but add them together, and they're pretty big and I'll explain why... via applying these issues to individual use-cases.
Films - films are 24fps. OLEDs struggle to do 24fps as good as an LCD (because they have a natural motion blur) and a projector. OLEDs have a natural pixel response time which sadly means you will get stutter, judder or whatever you want to call it today.
Dolby Vision - DV when it works, is freaking amazing but every single OLED panel is having issues with DV (whether its floating blacks, flashing bars, flashing colours, an inferior DV representation. So, DV is amazing.. when it works... but when it doesn't, the HDR10 version would be far less irritating.
Anime - Anime's motion is a BIG issue for OLEDs again with some inherent natural stutter mixed in with some OLED induced stuttering. Combine this with BLOCK colours which can show off the DSE very easily and LOTS of panning which shows of the DSE, and you're in some trouble.
TV shows - TV shows work pretty well on OLEDs. 24p issue but its not induced too much.
HDR - HDR is amazing on an OLED. Pixel level control leaves it being perfect.
Bright scenes - bright scenes are limited by ABL (so lack of impact and gradual dimming) and the dirty screen effect. Also banding seems to rear its head on specific colours which sucks as well (not specifically dark ones).
Dark Scenes - this is a big one. Dark scenes are amazing on an OLED, if its there is no jarring movement or challenging movement which can sometimes induce heavy banding. Don't get me wrong, 98% of the time dark scenes are phenomenal and best in class, but when they are bad, they are god damn bad.
Gaming - games are AMAZING on an OLED. Instant pixel response time etc. But lets not ignore the multitude of HDMI 2.1 based issues LG have faced. Yes LG have fixed a lot of them but a lot are inexcusable such as the heightened blacks in VRR mode, the stutter which only got eliminated recently.
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My experience with projection is the polar opposite. Projection doesn't have the best blacks, it doesn't have the best contrast, it doesn't even have specular highlight brightness outside of its native panel contrast. But what does it have? Well specific to use-cases, its utterly fantastic.
Films - 24p content handed like a champ, no problems, no issues, a much more 'filmic' representation with superior motion handling, picture processing, detail retrieval due to the size.
Anime - no motion issues at all. Its just put simply, easy and beautiful with the only texture issue being your screen.
TV shows - great, no issues.
Bright scenes - fantastic, no issues, throws more perceived high brightness scenes which will leave you squinting than an OLED in a bright room. (
Dark scenes - amazing shadow detail and retrieval. Inferior blacks, no banding. A dark scene on an OLED looks 100x better than on a projector BUT a dark scene on an OLED might distract you with ABL, banding similar to a 5% grey and uniformity issues where a projector simply put won't.
Gaming - OLED wins. Projectors are crap at them compared to an OLED outside of the JVC native 4K ones which have native resolution. But interestingly, if I ask friends and family, they are blown away by the PJ with games.
3-D - its jaw dropping in a light controlled room with a high brightness PJ shooting a 100 inch projected image at you. I will go on record saying an OLED's infinite contrast ratio HDR has NOTHING and I mean NOTHING on a 3D image. Compare Pacific Rim 3D to Pacific Rim 4K UHD.. no contest which wins. Frozen is magical in 3D, its a film in 2D.
Dolby Vision - big fat fail, it can't do it.
HDR - so, HDR is a mixed bag. It can't do specular highlight detail, its HDR representation isn't accurate, it needs DTM (so really only JVCs and media nuts like myself who have MADVR can pull off HDR so it equals an OLED's type of quality). BUT, I find HDR on a PJ with DTM via MADVR has more meaningful impact from a colour and brightness perspective than my 77'' OLED at times. Is the OLED better at HDR? Yes, its the king of HDR but... the space between the two is smaller than I would have expected.
Now I'd like to say everything I've stated is WITHOUT taking into account a projector is GIGANTIC and an OLED is tiny.
I've only spoken about picture processing for the most part...
So just some food for thought really. I think as good as OLEDs are, their few flaws can really ruin the majority of someone's content. For example, why have the best blacks but worry about if your 5% grey slide banding is going to come on the screen? OLEDs are fantastic but there two issues are with dark (5% grey banding) and bright (ABL limiting peak brightness, DSE, Grid patterns) content. Once we take into account those, I think we're in trouble.
Now, I will move back to OLED at some point, but I am not giving up the projector as I hope to grow my screen to 110 and maybe 130 inches.
For many HT enthusiasts, 77'' OLED might be near end-game until we get 88'' OLED panels. I have owned by the LG OLED CX & GX. In my time with these phenomenal, and expensive, TVs, I feel fairly well positioned to give an assessment on them.
For a bit of history, I bought an Epson 9400. Its HDR was very infuriating, having to use the slider. For video games, it was terrible in digital cinema mode. HDR tone mapping was awful. Then it stopped working. So I went to OLED which was always my personal end-game in a small room. I had a 77'' CX. It was very bandy. I had a 77'' GX, it had a very clear texture and DSE on whites and other problematic colours, along side one day it just decided to not turn on. Banding wise my uniformity of the panel was one of the best on the forum and indeed probably the world but I still saw bands on problematic content.
Today my replacement 77'' CX arrived. The wall mount they refused to put on because it wasn't JL sold. I just decided there and then, return it as I'm moving house and I'd rather have my full £4.5k back. Nothing bad about the installers, great guys, nothing bad about JL or even the failed TV.. I'm moving in 4-8 weeks, might as well return. However, I am the type of person to get full fidelity, I'd live with the issue of moving it in 4-8 weeks if I could use it over December/January...
But put simply whilst my broken GX which returned to turn on was out of action, I used my Sony HW40ES projector to play some old TV shows. The HW40ES was lightyears away from the PQ of the LG's in terms of blacks, contrast, brightness but it had a beautiful natural filmic presence, motion and handling of content which the LG didn't.
So I decided to invest in an Epson 9300. This is old model of the 9400 I owned without 18gbps HDMI (so no HDR gaming which the 9400 failed on) and no HDR slider, Instead I used DTM via MADVR for HDR content (like an OLEDs DTM).
Now, talking about OLEDs specifically. OLEDs have the deepest most beautiful blacks, pixel level control of colour and light with an infinite contrast ratio. So it their only weakness size? No.
There are three issues which affected my time with OLED TVs:
1. Banding - its bad. Even a good panel like my GX, I could see it in certain content like Lion King 2 or a few scenes in Moana.
2. DSE - this white dirty texture is, put simply, horrible. I only noticed it on the GX but AVSforum users say their panels have it too. Its not nice and can ruin some content.
3. Film Motion (24fps) - its bad. Its not terrible but its not good. Its below average. Sure, some people don't notice it but I can tell you a few scenes in 1917 and you'll notice it right away.
4. ABL - affects bright scenes, limiting light output to low nit values for low impact AND affects dark scenes for some weird reason
_______________________________
Now, all of these issues alone are small but add them together, and they're pretty big and I'll explain why... via applying these issues to individual use-cases.
Films - films are 24fps. OLEDs struggle to do 24fps as good as an LCD (because they have a natural motion blur) and a projector. OLEDs have a natural pixel response time which sadly means you will get stutter, judder or whatever you want to call it today.
Dolby Vision - DV when it works, is freaking amazing but every single OLED panel is having issues with DV (whether its floating blacks, flashing bars, flashing colours, an inferior DV representation. So, DV is amazing.. when it works... but when it doesn't, the HDR10 version would be far less irritating.
Anime - Anime's motion is a BIG issue for OLEDs again with some inherent natural stutter mixed in with some OLED induced stuttering. Combine this with BLOCK colours which can show off the DSE very easily and LOTS of panning which shows of the DSE, and you're in some trouble.
TV shows - TV shows work pretty well on OLEDs. 24p issue but its not induced too much.
HDR - HDR is amazing on an OLED. Pixel level control leaves it being perfect.
Bright scenes - bright scenes are limited by ABL (so lack of impact and gradual dimming) and the dirty screen effect. Also banding seems to rear its head on specific colours which sucks as well (not specifically dark ones).
Dark Scenes - this is a big one. Dark scenes are amazing on an OLED, if its there is no jarring movement or challenging movement which can sometimes induce heavy banding. Don't get me wrong, 98% of the time dark scenes are phenomenal and best in class, but when they are bad, they are god damn bad.
Gaming - games are AMAZING on an OLED. Instant pixel response time etc. But lets not ignore the multitude of HDMI 2.1 based issues LG have faced. Yes LG have fixed a lot of them but a lot are inexcusable such as the heightened blacks in VRR mode, the stutter which only got eliminated recently.
___________________________________
My experience with projection is the polar opposite. Projection doesn't have the best blacks, it doesn't have the best contrast, it doesn't even have specular highlight brightness outside of its native panel contrast. But what does it have? Well specific to use-cases, its utterly fantastic.
Films - 24p content handed like a champ, no problems, no issues, a much more 'filmic' representation with superior motion handling, picture processing, detail retrieval due to the size.
Anime - no motion issues at all. Its just put simply, easy and beautiful with the only texture issue being your screen.
TV shows - great, no issues.
Bright scenes - fantastic, no issues, throws more perceived high brightness scenes which will leave you squinting than an OLED in a bright room. (
Dark scenes - amazing shadow detail and retrieval. Inferior blacks, no banding. A dark scene on an OLED looks 100x better than on a projector BUT a dark scene on an OLED might distract you with ABL, banding similar to a 5% grey and uniformity issues where a projector simply put won't.
Gaming - OLED wins. Projectors are crap at them compared to an OLED outside of the JVC native 4K ones which have native resolution. But interestingly, if I ask friends and family, they are blown away by the PJ with games.
3-D - its jaw dropping in a light controlled room with a high brightness PJ shooting a 100 inch projected image at you. I will go on record saying an OLED's infinite contrast ratio HDR has NOTHING and I mean NOTHING on a 3D image. Compare Pacific Rim 3D to Pacific Rim 4K UHD.. no contest which wins. Frozen is magical in 3D, its a film in 2D.
Dolby Vision - big fat fail, it can't do it.
HDR - so, HDR is a mixed bag. It can't do specular highlight detail, its HDR representation isn't accurate, it needs DTM (so really only JVCs and media nuts like myself who have MADVR can pull off HDR so it equals an OLED's type of quality). BUT, I find HDR on a PJ with DTM via MADVR has more meaningful impact from a colour and brightness perspective than my 77'' OLED at times. Is the OLED better at HDR? Yes, its the king of HDR but... the space between the two is smaller than I would have expected.
Now I'd like to say everything I've stated is WITHOUT taking into account a projector is GIGANTIC and an OLED is tiny.
I've only spoken about picture processing for the most part...
So just some food for thought really. I think as good as OLEDs are, their few flaws can really ruin the majority of someone's content. For example, why have the best blacks but worry about if your 5% grey slide banding is going to come on the screen? OLEDs are fantastic but there two issues are with dark (5% grey banding) and bright (ABL limiting peak brightness, DSE, Grid patterns) content. Once we take into account those, I think we're in trouble.
Now, I will move back to OLED at some point, but I am not giving up the projector as I hope to grow my screen to 110 and maybe 130 inches.
