I went from a 77'' OLED... to Projection.. a bit of an essay...

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
(Firstly, an OLED is DEFINITELY part of my plans because I love gaming on the rare occasions I get time and HDMI 2.1, 120hz, Gsync is just too god damn good to give up. Games REALLY benefit from infinite contrast and deep blacks because they use them so often. Okay, that is out of the way.)

For many HT enthusiasts, 77'' OLED might be near end-game until we get 88'' OLED panels. I have owned by the LG OLED CX & GX. In my time with these phenomenal, and expensive, TVs, I feel fairly well positioned to give an assessment on them.

For a bit of history, I bought an Epson 9400. Its HDR was very infuriating, having to use the slider. For video games, it was terrible in digital cinema mode. HDR tone mapping was awful. Then it stopped working. So I went to OLED which was always my personal end-game in a small room. I had a 77'' CX. It was very bandy. I had a 77'' GX, it had a very clear texture and DSE on whites and other problematic colours, along side one day it just decided to not turn on. Banding wise my uniformity of the panel was one of the best on the forum and indeed probably the world but I still saw bands on problematic content.

Today my replacement 77'' CX arrived. The wall mount they refused to put on because it wasn't JL sold. I just decided there and then, return it as I'm moving house and I'd rather have my full £4.5k back. Nothing bad about the installers, great guys, nothing bad about JL or even the failed TV.. I'm moving in 4-8 weeks, might as well return. However, I am the type of person to get full fidelity, I'd live with the issue of moving it in 4-8 weeks if I could use it over December/January...

But put simply whilst my broken GX which returned to turn on was out of action, I used my Sony HW40ES projector to play some old TV shows. The HW40ES was lightyears away from the PQ of the LG's in terms of blacks, contrast, brightness but it had a beautiful natural filmic presence, motion and handling of content which the LG didn't.

So I decided to invest in an Epson 9300. This is old model of the 9400 I owned without 18gbps HDMI (so no HDR gaming which the 9400 failed on) and no HDR slider, Instead I used DTM via MADVR for HDR content (like an OLEDs DTM).



Now, talking about OLEDs specifically. OLEDs have the deepest most beautiful blacks, pixel level control of colour and light with an infinite contrast ratio. So it their only weakness size? No.

There are three issues which affected my time with OLED TVs:
1. Banding - its bad. Even a good panel like my GX, I could see it in certain content like Lion King 2 or a few scenes in Moana.
2. DSE - this white dirty texture is, put simply, horrible. I only noticed it on the GX but AVSforum users say their panels have it too. Its not nice and can ruin some content.
3. Film Motion (24fps) - its bad. Its not terrible but its not good. Its below average. Sure, some people don't notice it but I can tell you a few scenes in 1917 and you'll notice it right away.
4. ABL - affects bright scenes, limiting light output to low nit values for low impact AND affects dark scenes for some weird reason




_______________________________

Now, all of these issues alone are small but add them together, and they're pretty big and I'll explain why... via applying these issues to individual use-cases.

Films - films are 24fps. OLEDs struggle to do 24fps as good as an LCD (because they have a natural motion blur) and a projector. OLEDs have a natural pixel response time which sadly means you will get stutter, judder or whatever you want to call it today.

Dolby Vision - DV when it works, is freaking amazing but every single OLED panel is having issues with DV (whether its floating blacks, flashing bars, flashing colours, an inferior DV representation. So, DV is amazing.. when it works... but when it doesn't, the HDR10 version would be far less irritating.

Anime - Anime's motion is a BIG issue for OLEDs again with some inherent natural stutter mixed in with some OLED induced stuttering. Combine this with BLOCK colours which can show off the DSE very easily and LOTS of panning which shows of the DSE, and you're in some trouble.

TV shows - TV shows work pretty well on OLEDs. 24p issue but its not induced too much.

HDR - HDR is amazing on an OLED. Pixel level control leaves it being perfect.

Bright scenes - bright scenes are limited by ABL (so lack of impact and gradual dimming) and the dirty screen effect. Also banding seems to rear its head on specific colours which sucks as well (not specifically dark ones).

Dark Scenes - this is a big one. Dark scenes are amazing on an OLED, if its there is no jarring movement or challenging movement which can sometimes induce heavy banding. Don't get me wrong, 98% of the time dark scenes are phenomenal and best in class, but when they are bad, they are god damn bad.

Gaming - games are AMAZING on an OLED. Instant pixel response time etc. But lets not ignore the multitude of HDMI 2.1 based issues LG have faced. Yes LG have fixed a lot of them but a lot are inexcusable such as the heightened blacks in VRR mode, the stutter which only got eliminated recently.



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My experience with projection is the polar opposite. Projection doesn't have the best blacks, it doesn't have the best contrast, it doesn't even have specular highlight brightness outside of its native panel contrast. But what does it have? Well specific to use-cases, its utterly fantastic.

Films - 24p content handed like a champ, no problems, no issues, a much more 'filmic' representation with superior motion handling, picture processing, detail retrieval due to the size.
Anime - no motion issues at all. Its just put simply, easy and beautiful with the only texture issue being your screen.
TV shows - great, no issues.
Bright scenes - fantastic, no issues, throws more perceived high brightness scenes which will leave you squinting than an OLED in a bright room. (
Dark scenes - amazing shadow detail and retrieval. Inferior blacks, no banding. A dark scene on an OLED looks 100x better than on a projector BUT a dark scene on an OLED might distract you with ABL, banding similar to a 5% grey and uniformity issues where a projector simply put won't.
Gaming - OLED wins. Projectors are crap at them compared to an OLED outside of the JVC native 4K ones which have native resolution. But interestingly, if I ask friends and family, they are blown away by the PJ with games.
3-D - its jaw dropping in a light controlled room with a high brightness PJ shooting a 100 inch projected image at you. I will go on record saying an OLED's infinite contrast ratio HDR has NOTHING and I mean NOTHING on a 3D image. Compare Pacific Rim 3D to Pacific Rim 4K UHD.. no contest which wins. Frozen is magical in 3D, its a film in 2D.

Dolby Vision - big fat fail, it can't do it.
HDR - so, HDR is a mixed bag. It can't do specular highlight detail, its HDR representation isn't accurate, it needs DTM (so really only JVCs and media nuts like myself who have MADVR can pull off HDR so it equals an OLED's type of quality). BUT, I find HDR on a PJ with DTM via MADVR has more meaningful impact from a colour and brightness perspective than my 77'' OLED at times. Is the OLED better at HDR? Yes, its the king of HDR but... the space between the two is smaller than I would have expected.

Now I'd like to say everything I've stated is WITHOUT taking into account a projector is GIGANTIC and an OLED is tiny.

I've only spoken about picture processing for the most part...


So just some food for thought really. I think as good as OLEDs are, their few flaws can really ruin the majority of someone's content. For example, why have the best blacks but worry about if your 5% grey slide banding is going to come on the screen? OLEDs are fantastic but there two issues are with dark (5% grey banding) and bright (ABL limiting peak brightness, DSE, Grid patterns) content. Once we take into account those, I think we're in trouble.


Now, I will move back to OLED at some point, but I am not giving up the projector as I hope to grow my screen to 110 and maybe 130 inches.
 

maverick177uk

Distinguished Member
3D is the kicker for me, why it can’t be included on TVs just baffles me, it can’t really cost that much. I loved my 3D and I believe the OLED was the best on the last models. I do miss my PJ just for the scale but with the advent of HDR and DV and gaming i favour OLED at the moment, I think what once micro led and building your own wall of tv becomes a thing then maybe I will switch to that.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
3D is the kicker for me, why it can’t be included on TVs just baffles me, it can’t really cost that much. I loved my 3D and I believe the OLED was the best on the last models. I do miss my PJ just for the scale but with the advent of HDR and DV and gaming i favour OLED at the moment, I think what once micro led and building your own wall of tv becomes a thing then maybe I will switch to that.


Yesterday I watched Pacific Rim in 3D (only the first 5 minutes) and I can tell you in 5 months with a 77'' OLED I never got the exhilaration I got from that.

Also just watched Mulan. Didn't worry about banding, the 24p motion issues and judder, any DSE, no ABL.. just watched and enjoyed. No Halo or blooming like I'd get with LCD stuff. Also the bigger size obviously helps a lot to appreciate. I think OLED's have their place. I'll be buying another one but I am now seriously considering redistributing my budget.

OLEDs are obviously the gold standard for gaming but since Cyberpunk kind of didn't do too well, and the PS5 only has 2 games I want to play.. I'm pretty prepared to hold fire for now. I also think I'll eventually get bored of the projector and maybe want to experience the specular highlight magic an OLED offers.

Before I had £5k in OLEDs and £2k in projectors. I might moving forwards switch it around so £4k+ in projection and maybe cap the OLED cost to £2-3k.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
3D is the kicker for me, why it can’t be included on TVs just baffles me, it can’t really cost that much. I loved my 3D and I believe the OLED was the best on the last models. I do miss my PJ just for the scale but with the advent of HDR and DV and gaming i favour OLED at the moment, I think what once micro led and building your own wall of tv becomes a thing then maybe I will switch to that.


On the topic of HDR, I think HDR is absolutely jaw dropping on an OLED.

DV, I think is just too much of a mixed bag. For example, I watched 'you' in DV and the episode multiple time faded to... grey. Yes. not fade to black on an OLED with beautfiul blacks. It faded to freaking grey and was very very very irritating. ABL also reared it ugly head leading to some annoying flickering. I also have had issues with some HDR titles on OLEDs like Mad Max, Lucy... the raised blacks just really p*ss me off an on OLED because it stands out so obviously lol.

Looking at it, I think an OLED is the perfect Netflix (DV and HDR central) & Gaming display.

Next year I'll try to get my hands on a JVC once I can 'treat' a room and compare it to an OLED in terms of subjective qualitative assessment on the film and gaming experience.
 

maverick177uk

Distinguished Member
On the topic of HDR, I think HDR is absolutely jaw dropping on an OLED.

DV, I think is just too much of a mixed bag. For example, I watched 'you' in DV and the episode multiple time faded to... grey. Yes. not fade to black on an OLED with beautfiul blacks. It faded to freaking grey and was very very very irritating. ABL also reared it ugly head leading to some annoying flickering. I also have had issues with some HDR titles on OLEDs like Mad Max, Lucy... the raised blacks just really p*ss me off an on OLED because it stands out so obviously lol.

Looking at it, I think an OLED is the perfect Netflix (DV and HDR central) & Gaming display.

Next year I'll try to get my hands on a JVC once I can 'treat' a room and compare it to an OLED in terms of subjective qualitative assessment on the film and gaming experience.
The only PJ I could get would be an UST and that’s in the realms of 77 oled but I’ll see what’s going next year when I do my garage conversion
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
The only PJ I could get would be an UST and that’s in the realms of 77 oled but I’ll see what’s going next year when I do my garage conversion


Would definitely wait mate til you can get either Epson or JVC. they pack a lot of premium QOL features which allow for awesome placement flexibility.

I am also waiting until I have a more suitable HT room. Big issue with PJs is you need the room :(
 

fathergll

Member
At the end of the day as you pointed out the experience of OLED is more mixed bag with exceptional experiences in some content and others not so much. If you have the room for it and able to control light then you simply can't beat a projector for consistency for movies/shows. Theaters are the gold standard and obviously thats the closest you will get.

Personally I think short throw projectors are going to be really exciting in a few years as the tech matures. It's going to open up a lot more people to projectors and to me the biggest issue with flat panel displays getting towards 80"-100" is the sheer size of them in a room, transportation...etc.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
At the end of the day as you pointed out the experience of OLED is more mixed bag with exceptional experiences in some content and others not so much. If you have the room for it and able to control light then you simply can't beat a projector for consistency for movies/shows. Theaters are the gold standard and obviously thats the closest you will get.

Personally I think short throw projectors are going to be really exciting in a few years as the tech matures. It's going to open up a lot more people to projectors and to me the biggest issue with flat panel displays getting towards 80"-100" is the sheer size of them in a room, transportation...etc.


Yup. Bigger the Tv the bigger the flaws show too.
 

yvv

Active Member
Would definitely wait mate til you can get either Epson or JVC. they pack a lot of premium QOL features which allow for awesome placement flexibility.

I am also waiting until I have a more suitable HT room. Big issue with PJs is you need the room :(

Projectors are pointless in a living room if you care about image quality. Sometimes even pitch black walls in a bat cave are not enough, you need proper anti-reflective texture.
 

sebna

Member
I have C6 65 so I know all about the flaws of Oled you are taking about (although I never had DSE) and I also have C9 65 with 99% pure perfect panel and I still prefer my JVC 7900 and 133" and IMHO there is no contest other then accessibility either from space requirement perceptive but also like now I am tired after day of work and the Oled is on but I could not be bothered with powering PJ setup for some focused dedicated movie watching...
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Projectors are pointless in a living room if you care about image quality. Sometimes even pitch black walls in a bat cave are not enough, you need proper anti-reflective texture.


I would not day pointless. I would say they are definitely compromised. However if you want 100''+ of immersion, you are restricted as most TV's that size are not affordable. :smoke:
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I have C6 65 so I know all about the flaws of Oled you are taking about (although I never had DSE) and I also have C9 65 with 99% pure perfect panel and I still prefer my JVC 7900 and 133" and IMHO there is no contest other then accessibility either from space requirement perceptive but also like now I am tired after day of work and the Oled is on but I could not be bothered with powering PJ setup for some focused dedicated movie watching...
Agreed mate.

I find a lot of OLED users get triggered by this notion but its funny that everyone I know who owns an OLED and a Projector feels the PJ is superior. ;)
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Projectors are pointless in a living room if you care about image quality. Sometimes even pitch black walls in a bat cave are not enough, you need proper anti-reflective texture.


I think far from pointless.



This is 120'' projector screen compared to postage stamp sized 65'' OLEDs, or even the 77 OLEDs.


😇 😇 😂 😂 😂 😂
 

TokenUser

Active Member
I have both an oled and projector. What is not mentioned so far is the fan noise of the projector. For me this is a major disadvantage at normal listening levels.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I have both an oled and projector. What is not mentioned so far is the fan noise of the projector. For me this is a major disadvantage at normal listening levels.

Yup great point too.
77'' OLED quiet scenes were silent which I loved.

Bigger the screen, higher the lamp, bigger the noise. But I guess if you have a proper room with a hush box and mount it far away, its a much much smaller issue.


TBH I think once we get into 100'' range and above, PJs just simply run away with it aslong as you have a semi decent environment for me personally. Its just... wow.

A 77'' OLED never had that wow factor for me or anyone that came to the house. It was just 'ooh big TV'. The 65'' OLED and 65'' LCD 902B are just... average TVs IMO for experience.
 

sebna

Member
I have both an oled and projector. What is not mentioned so far is the fan noise of the projector. For me this is a major disadvantage at normal listening levels.
I thought the noise will be a major problem for me but only on last out of 10 movies I noticed fan for the first time and PJ was in high mode and not for the first time. I am about 2m from free hanging x7900.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I thought the noise will be a major problem for me but only on last out of 10 movies I noticed fan for the first time and PJ was in high mode and not for the first time. I am about 2m from free hanging x7900.


I just watched Jungle book high mode lamp and also it went into the background..
but u have to remember ur speakers are going to probably be quite loud. for those who use sound-bars or smaller speakers or listen at small volume.. the fan will be audible at high.

I was listening at -3.5db .. so i didn't hear the fan lol.
 

sebna

Member
I just watched Jungle book high mode lamp and also it went into the background..
but u have to remember ur speakers are going to probably be quite loud. for those who use sound-bars or smaller speakers or listen at small volume.. the fan will be audible at high.

I was listening at -3.5db .. so i didn't hear the fan lol.
I bet you were not too bothered by it at -3.5 :D. In a quiet passages it must have sounded like a soothing whisper of the free flowing alpine spring so basically better than silence ;) :D
 
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TokenUser

Active Member
I thought the noise will be a major problem for me but only on last out of 10 movies I noticed fan for the first time and PJ was in high mode and not for the first time. I am about 2m from free hanging x7900.
For general TV though, especially at night when the volume is low the noise is quite distracting. I'd love it if there was a silent projector out there.
 

sebna

Member
is laser silent? or quieter?
If to go by what Star Wars depicted it must be pretty loud ;)

On more serious note it is a good question. I would imagine it will vary model to model as laser or not probably some cooling will be required when high powered electronics are at play.

@mb3195 could probably let us know about the difference of his Sony Vs x7900 :)
 

sebna

Member
For general TV though, especially at night when the volume is low the noise is quite distracting. I'd love it if there was a silent projector out there.

I am sure you are right it is just not my use case so luckily it does not bother me.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
If to go by what Star Wars depicted it must be pretty loud ;)

On more serious note it is a good question. I would imagine it will vary model to model as laser or not probably some cooling will be required when high powered electronics are at play.

@mb3195 could probably let us know about the difference of his Sony Vs x7900 :)


I did star wars at -4DB. IT was fine until the flying scenes. That is an EPIC film. I had enabled BassEQ too. It was 1AM so woke up a fair few ppl..
 

Slugsy01

Distinguished Member
I hope I get the chance to have a projector one day. Totally agree with the pros and cons of both but for movie/immersive experience, projectors are awesome.
 

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