I need to buy new speaker wire for music system. Looking for advice.

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by crazyshady, Jan 31, 2018.


    1. crazyshady

      crazyshady
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      I have moved my music system from one room into another and I will be needing longer speaker wire.

      This is the wire that I currently have.


      This is the system I have and have had for quite a few years now, the only upgrade has been the Ortofon 2M Red cartridge.

      Project 3 Genie Turntable (independant record store)

      Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge

      Cambridge Audio Azur 340a Amplifier (Richer Sounds)

      Gale silver monitors (Richer Sounds)

      £20 phono preamp (Richer Sounds)

      Cables from amplifier to phono and Cambridge Audio ULTRA MICRO Speaker cables (Richer Sounds)


      This is what they have available on their site.

      Speaker Cables | Richer Sounds


      Would I be best sticking with the same wire. I don't want to spend a lot more money, for instance the £4.99 per metre cables seem a bit much but are there any other cables there that might give me a bit of improvement? Bare in mind most of the stuff I have was bought from Richer Sounds and they recommended those cables last time and I'm 100% happy with them but they are too short now but there seems to be so many different kinds available. Should I just stick to the same cable?
       
    2. Hixs

      Hixs
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      As long as the cable is 99% oxygen free copper it doesn't really matter what you buy. Best off buying online though.

      I use Van Damme Blue 2.5mm @ 2.50/meter
       
    3. Don Dadda

      Don Dadda
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      Of course they would. You can if you want to but I'm in agreements with Hixs

      Van Damme Blue 2 x 2.5 mm
       
    4. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      For speaker wire follow the exaustive and exausting thread on the following page under the heading classe amplifier.,... It will tell you more than you ever wanted to know but the conclusion is simple ... Get the van damme stuff at either 2.5 or 4.00 mm.
       
    5. drummerjohn

      drummerjohn
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      Twin & Earth 1.0mm
       
    6. BlueWizard

      BlueWizard
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      Nothing wrong with Van Damme Studio Blue - 2.5mm² - £2.43/meter -

      Van Damme Blue Series Passive Speaker Cable

      2.5mm² is more than enough for a vast majority of people, and certainly enough for you.

      As an alternative, consider Fisual S-FLES Studio 2.5mm² in Black or White - £2.35/meter -

      Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade Black Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - Fisual - AudioVisual Online

      Fisual S-Flex Studio Grade White Speaker Cable 2 x 2.5mm - Fisual - AudioVisual Online

      On the Audio Visual On-Line page, if you click on the box marked [NONE], you will get a drop down list of termination options. Oddly, there are more options for White cable then for Black. Though I suspect if you call they will terminate with whatever you want.

      If we terminal the Fisual S-Flex on both ends with Plastic QED Airloc Banana Plugs, and extend the length to 3 meters, the cost PER CABLE is - £23.05. So for a PAIR of Cables, the cost is £46.10/pr.

      If you want to add your own Banana Plugs, there are a range of options to choose from. At lost cost with ease of installation, I like Sewell Deadbolt Banana Plugs (£11.29/6 pair) which you can get on Amazon-UK -

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sewell-Direct-SW-29863-6-Deadbolt-6-Pairs/dp/B007QUYQSY

      These are very easy to install -

      Deadbolt Banana plugs


      Here are some that operate on the same principle as Sewell Deadbolt -

      GearIt Banana Plugs - £9.79/6 pair -


      https://www.amazon.co.uk/GearIt-High-Quality-Connector-Speaker-Banana-6-Pack/dp/B00V5KQ2A6

      The other type uses TWO SCREWS to secure the wire into the Banana Plug. Nakamichi is probably the best in this category.

      https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nakamichi/...0847031&field-lbr_brands_browse-bin=Nakamichi

      If that appeals to you, we can make some more specific recommendations.

      The QED Airloc use a special Crimping tool that crimps down very tightly on the wire, allegedly creating an airtight contact between the wire and connector, and then of course, there is the labor for them to install the connectors for you. You can NOT install the QED Airloc yourself because it requires a special tool, but there are other QED self-install Banana Plugs on the Audio Visual On-Line website.

      QED Screwloc Forte ABS 4mm Banana Plug (4 Pack) - Banana Plugs, Spades and Pins - AudioVisual Online

      QED Screwloc Forte ABS 4mm Banana Plug (10 Pack) - Banana Plugs, Spades and Pins - AudioVisual Online

      Most feel these are a bit expensive compare to other available Banana Plugs.

      Both Fisual S-FLEX and Van Damme Blue are 99.99% Oxygen Free Copper.

      Steve/bluewizard
       
      Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    7. Hixs

      Hixs
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      I use the Sewell deadbolt bananna plugs. They get a big :thumbsup: from me. Proper bit of kit for not a lot of money.
       
    8. dante01

      dante01
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      It should be noted that banana plugs do not improve the signal or the audio performance and are only there for convenience purposes. The use of them actually impedes the signal and it is suggested that direct bare wire connections are preferable.

      Some may find this of interest when it comes to investigating what to look for when looking to buy speaker wire:
      Speaker Wire
       
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    9. B17NNS

      B17NNS
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    10. pwood

      pwood
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      Just don't bi-wire them and waste even more money on two runs of cable, total waste of money as in the worst thing I ever did a while back until I used my ears. As for cables I think your microwire stuff can be improved on for very little using the Van Damme stuff suggested above. FWIW I think better cables do make a difference but note I said better, not more expensive. Banana plugs make things a lot easier but you don't need them, provided the amp has terminals that can cope with thick bare wire.
       
    11. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      Or go down to your local b&q or Maplin and buy twin core or flex 2.5mm sq mains wiring or better and run it under behind the skirting boards. Huge amount of snake oil and fantasy marketing to people with more money than sense.
       
    12. Blues Rock

      Blues Rock
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    13. Barcoing Mad

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      Always worth a quick search and read of 'Cable Nonsense' by John Dunlavy.
       
    14. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      A 50 metre drum of 2.5mm sq cable costs 28 quid in B and Q ... That should be good benchmark.... The audio quest cable suggested would cost 4 times as much, will be inferior,... Have a higher resistance, but will perhaps be more flexible and more aesthetic.
       
    15. Paddyfin

      Paddyfin
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      Go with van damme blue
       
    16. Nishe1

      Nishe1
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      How would this cable be when using different lengths? I'm looking at Van Damme cable too but my amp is on the right so FR is only 2.4m away from amp, but the Centre is 3.4m and FL 4.4m. My OCD is telling me to get 4.4m for all but i would have to coil the excess, which i've also read is not great.
       
    17. dante01

      dante01
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      You'd only need thicker wire if the distances were considerable longer. 2.5mm is technically thicker than you'd need:

      speaker-cables.png


      It is suggest that you try keep the front stereo pair's wire of equal length, but you'd technically need quite drastically different lengths for it to make any audible difference. It is perfectly acceptable to have different lengths for the centre and the surrounds and all the wires do not need to be of equal length.
       
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      Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    18. BlueWizard

      BlueWizard
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      Technically that may be, but it does so in the most microscopic and insignificant way ... assuming we are dealing with common Consumer grade amp. If you have 500w/ch Audiophile amp, a person might want to rethink, but even people using high end systems, still use Banana Plug. Having check the specs on Banana Plugs not too long ago, they are rated for about 12 Amps of Current. If we by chance push that 12A into an 8 ohm speaker, the equivalent power is 1152 Watts.

      There also BFA Banana Plugs that have much more surface contact, though they tend to be expensive.

      Wireworld Gold Plated BFA Banana Plugs (2 Pack) - Wireworld - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

      AudioQuest SureGrip 300 Silver Plated BFA / Banana Plug (Pack Of 4) - Audioquest - AudioVisual Online - UK Home Cinema and Hifi Specialists

      Seems a bit overkill though.

      Keep in mind, I'm not disputing your point, solidly clamping the wire in the speaker terminal is a better contact than the spring tension of Banana Plugs, but Banana Plugs still get the job done and are used by a vast majority of people ... though admittedly mostly for convenience.

      Steve/bluewizard
       
    19. BlueWizard

      BlueWizard
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      Here is some information I compiled myself that would be helpful -

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      [​IMG]

      5% is considered acceptable cable loss, and that is the percent the Roger-Russell uses.

      This next link should give you some sense of the Power Handling capability of various wires -

      Speaker Wire in Prespective -How much is Enough?

      At the very end of the thread I calculate the Power Capabilities of 2.5mm² cable.

      13ga (2.62mm²) Copper Cable -

      438 Sustained Watts
      +2000 Working Peak (best guess)
      9800 Max Peak Watts


      Steve/bluewizard
       
    20. Pecker

      Pecker
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      I'm reminded of this:

      https://gizmodo.com/305549/james-ra...iles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better

      No one ever, ever takes up the challenge, despite it being very low risk, and with a potentially massive reward.

      People ask "Can a difference be spotted between different cable", and that's the wrong question.

      The right question is "Will and difference (which may not exist, but let's say potentially it does) diminish my listening enjoyment if I opt for 'normal' cable?"

      Why is people's goal to squeeze the last nth degree of difference out of their kit, with massive cost implications for the smallest increments of improvement? Why isn't it just to enjoy their music?

      We all have different musical tastes, so please no worthless quips, but I'll offer an example.

      Let's say I have a copy of The Joshua Tree (or Led Zep III, or What's Going On).

      How much is my musical listening improved by spending £10 on a copy of The Unforgettable Fire (or Led Zep IV, or Let's Get It On)?

      How much is it improved by spending £100 on 'better' cable, then doing endless side-by-side tests to see if I can spot a minute difference?

      For me, this has always been my acid test - the correct question to ask. Am I enjoying it?

      For me, if I'm asking "Can I spot the difference between these two", then I've forgotten what I'm listening to the music for."

      Not because that's not an altogether invalid question, but because 99% of the time people who ask it haven't asked the first question.
       
    21. dante01

      dante01
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      So it is okay to rip people off as long as they are unaware of the fact that they are being ripped off? If the speaker cable manufacturers were making electrical cables for the construction industry then they'd not be able to make many of the claims they make. The fact that there are no standards governing speaker cables and no legal legislation to protect consumers when being sold such cables doesn't justify being ripped off.

      There are factors that would make some cables better than offers, but these factors are all measurable and covered by electrical engineering. None of them substanciate the kind of prices some cables sell for. If an electrician started rewiring your house spouting the kind of crap coming from some of the speaker cable manufacturers then you'd advise hime to go see a psychiatrist before terminating his employment.

      This isn't a matter of anyones' musical tastes and is more a matter of the emperor's new clothes.
       
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      Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    22. BlueWizard

      BlueWizard
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      Steady now, we are on the verge of going down a very dark and dangerous road. The subject is not the merits of speaker cable, but rather reasonable recommendations for someone with a modest system looking for speaker cable.

      I think, all factors considered, the Van Damme Blue and the Fisual S-FLEX are excellent choices at about £2.50/meter.

      That's about £15 for TWO 3 Meter (10ft) cables. Then another ...roughly... £10 for Banana Plugs.

      However, that I recall, the Original Poster has not deemed those options overly expensive. If here feels that £2.50/meter is excessive, then common 2.5mm² twin lead wire would be just fine.

      ByFleet Audio OFC High Grade Copper Wire 2.5mm² - 25 meters - £30.98 -


      OFC High Grade Copper Speaker Cable

      £1.24/meter

      He can probably find similar wire on Amazon for even less, just make sure it is copper wire and NOT CCA (copper clad aluminum).

      But, again, the recommended Van Damme Blue and the Fisual S-FLEX at 99.99% OFC are about as good as you can realistically get without getting into gimmicks.

      Depending on the length of wire needed, even 1.5mm² is probably fine, but it is just a few Pence/Cents more to get 2.5mm².

      Steve/bluewizard
       
      Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    23. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      Hi blue wizard, .. with respect I think you are grossly underestimating the power capacity of our simple 2.5 mm sq copper twin and earth.... Under standard conditions, .. domestic situation in a open cavity it is capable of 27 amp continuously, reduced when it is put in insulated wall panels. Standard insulation is good to 400v , giving a continuous power of nearly 12kw..
      The tables of allowable current have been derived by looking at how effective the surroundings are at dissipation of the heating due to resistance of the wire. There are other considerations about ensuring that the voltage drop after a specific length of cable is less than say 10%. ... if our cable were immersed in a stream of 4 degree water, it could carry a loot more current without overheating...
      But peak power means exceedng this , allowing the copper to heat up more, but stopping before it melts the insulation . Now we cannot increase the voltage, as the insulation will break over, but the current can be increased let's say to 200 amps for 10% of the time, giving a peak power of 80Kw!!!! , Or 2000 Amps for 1%... Allowing nearly a Megawatt!!!! at peak.

      Oh dear I am straying into the strategies for measuring loudspeakers and amplifiers...
       
    24. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      I have huge sympathy for the viewpoint you are expounding. In an earlier posting I made references to the use of different amplifier technologies as akin to flyfishing. , The same could well be used in reference to cables.
      In a collection of postings , blue wizard has shown that there are measureable electrical differences between different manufacturers cables. Or more properly he has listed the electrical properties as published by their distributors The most notable is resistance, but also capacitance and inductance can be modified. He has calculated at what lengths of cable these might be expected to change tonal characteristics.
      Whether there is any discernable audible effect from increased capacitance or reduced inductance, is a moot point similar as to whether a salmon will rise to a yellow lure or an off pink one.. no statistical data!!!!.
      If it were a problem, which I don't accept, then tuning the wire network would fully compensate. .. for any one who has worked in electronics, one of the semester two training excercises is using a compensated scope probe and adjusting it to compensate ...

      But what is bizzare is that a slight use of the tone control would immediately and equivalently compensate fully for any attenuation in higher frequencies... So I am with you on the emperor's New clothes syndrome.
       
    25. BlueWizard

      BlueWizard
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      For those bend in a Mathematical direction, here are those calculations -

      http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/1907265-speaker-cable-debate-perspective.html

      I used R/2 (50%), R/5 (20%), R/10 (10%) and R/35 (~3%) for the losses. I looked up several cables from common to expensive, and calculated losses based on Inductance, Resistance, and Capacitance.

      Never did Capacitance drop into the Audio Range. Inductance only dropped into the Audio Range at and in excess of 50 feet (15m). And at 50ft, when those losses were converted to Decibels, they were still pretty insignificant.

      There was no parameter that I could find, that effected the Audio range at any length of wire commonly found in Audio system. Even at a considerable 50ft, which would be rare in home audio, the problem encountered were still slight. Likely those lengths would be on Surround Speakers, and as such would go unnoticed.

      Given all this, one could go down to the Hardware Store and simply buy common Copper Zip cord (common 2-conductor electrical wire) and get good results. But I'm not dead broke, so I have no problem buying Speaker Wire.

      Inductive Impedance of 50ft of very common 13ga/2.5mm² twin lead cable.

      At 2.286% Inductive Impedance loss, the frequency was 3,614hz.

      That is MUCH lower than I would have imagined.

      At 10% Inductive Impedance loss, the frequency was 12,650hz.

      The above is actually QED 79-Strand.

      Also, these are Inductive only losses, wire resistance has not been added in.

      Here is the combined losses at 50ft -

      "Which results in a combined Resistive and Inductive loss of about 6% at 3,614hz and about 13% at 12,650hz."

      Later in the thread, I converted these losses to dB -

      Sorry, I can't find what I was looking for but this should tide you over until I redo the calculations -

      But relative to what you hear, how much sound does 5% loss equal.

      5% loss is an inconsequential -0.44553 dB or roughly -0.5dB

      10% signal loss is a still inconsequential -0.91515 dB or roughly -1dB.

      1% loss is a microscopic -0.087296 dB of sound reduction.


      In the example above with 6% total loss at 3,614hz, and 13% total loss are 12,650hz, the equivalent dB of loss is -

      6% at 3,614hz -


      dB = 20 log(Vo/Vi) = 20 log(94/100) = -0.53 dB

      13% at 12,650hz -


      dB = 20 log(Vo/Vi) = 20 log(87/100) = -1.21 dB

      Very small losses.

      "To really be able to noticeably hear the signal loss, it would have to be about 30% which would be a loss heard of about -3.098 dB. 3dB is a very slight but noticeable change in volume."

      Keep in mind there is a SQUARE factor involved which is why large voltage changes result in small dB changes, and of course, the dB Calculation use a LOG function.

      Additional information coming from this thread -

      Speaker Wire in Prespective -How much is Enough?

      The moral of this story is, don't spend a fortune on cable. Though if you want to spend a bit more to get PRETTY cable, you are welcome to do it, as long as you understand what you are getting.

      Steve/bluewizard
       
      Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
    26. dannnielll

      dannnielll
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      Hi blue wizard, it is slightly off centre, but your analysis of the effect of capacitance on sonic performance, can be wrong. But not in the way you are thinking, your analysis of transmission through the cable is not in error. .. . And it affects the most expensive cables not the cheaper ones.

      If the output impedance of an emitter follower,or source follower or cathode follower, drops below a certain level, it can allow the output transistors to go into oscillation..The problem is more acute or likely with bipolar transistors, as they have higher current gain. The problem will be seen on high frequency transients as a damped ringing . People might hear this as a "brightness " , but it is an artefact.
      Those cables which have been expressly designed to reduce inductance( which would increase impedence at high frequencies), by increasing capacitance (which reduces impedence at high frequencies), will be more susceptible. The incidence or probability will be length dependent.as the capacitance wil increase with distance. So it's a double whammy, increased capacitance and limited inductance.
      The importance of this is that all amplifiers, except perhaps those using a transformer output, use emitter follower or source follower outputs.
       
    27. crazyshady

      crazyshady
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      Thank you all for replying and giving me advice. There's a lot for me to consider. One wire I will need 1 metre and for the other I am thinking 3 metres.
       
    28. FaxFan2002

      FaxFan2002
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      Anyone see the Van Damme blue 2.5mm in stock anywhere?
       
    29. dante01

      dante01
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    30. FaxFan2002

      FaxFan2002
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      *not from Ebay... so'ok found some on amazon.
       

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