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I must be a tone deft or something!!(Old KenWood VS New Yamaha)!!!

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by CosmicOne, Oct 23, 2004.

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  1. CosmicOne

    CosmicOne
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    if u guys remember from some time i was asking about upgrading my old KenWood amp to a new Yamaha amp,anyway i make the switch from sometime & here starts the sadness :( :(

    1st specs:
    Old amp:KenWood KRF-V5030D (110wx5) dolbydigital only entry level amp bought it year 2000.

    New Amp:Yamaha RXV650.(payed 800USD for it coz it's very expensive here in my country Egypt)

    DVD:Sony DVP-NS305

    Front speakers:Wharfedale Diamond 8.4
    Center:Wharfedale Diamond8c
    Rears:bookshelf onkyo speakers (soon to be replaced with Diamond8.3)

    First i was happy with my Yammy & i though i heared more details than my old KenWood & also i was very very impressed by it's quality (my KenWood looks like **** next to the Yammy).

    but after sometime i tried to hook my old KenWood again to make a comparison.
    & the difference was NOTHING in stereo & on Movies while i bought the Yammy coz i always wished to have a Yamaha reciver & i know yamaha is the best in movie sounds how could it be the ****y ****y entry level KenWood match it??????!!!!!!!!!!!

    i though my room was the problem coz it's a little bit reflective & live room with lots of bare surfaces,so i tried moving the system to another part of my house that have more absorbant materials than my room,& i start listining to a CD & repeat a track i choose several times & still can't hear any difference.

    For movies i used BladeII DVD with the came with DTS:ES6.1,i watched a chapter on the KenWood in dolbyD5.1 & the same chapter on the Yammy on DolbyD5.1 & there was nothing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    also to make things worse & that's why i really think now that am Tone Deft,
    while am using my Yammy & switching between DSP's in movies (Spectacle,Sci-Fi,Adventure) i don't notice any difference between them & i notice a very very small differnece in the surrounds between the DSP's & the Straight mode,while i could hear the difference in DSP's like (Jazz,Concert Hall ect..)in songs.

    Also i connected the pressence speakers which doesn't add anything at all to the sound.

    & to make things as bad as it can get i tried switching between DolbyD5.1 & DTS5.1 on BladeII DVD on my yammy (coz the KenWood doesn't have DTS) & as u may guess didn't hear any difference between DD & DTS only the DD was louder than the DTS track.

    Sorry guys for the long post but i really don't have anyone to discuss this things with him coz my friends & relatives all use PC multimedia speakers & doesn't really care about Audio or Hi-Fi or surrounds.

    So what do u think about it guys,could it be true as a dude over at AudioHolics told me before i buy my Yammy that i wouldn't get any sonic differnce between different Amps/Recivers?? He also told me that even if i got the yammy Z9 it wouldn't make a difference.
     
  2. ktng

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    So is the same receiver that sounds so much better in stereo than almost any new AV receiver on the market because it has Pure Direct Mode, yet doesn't sound any better than an old entry level Kenwood in stereo :confused:
     
  3. CosmicOne

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    Ktng,
    Dude when i said that,i always refered to the Reviews & not my personal opinion,also as u can read from my post that i also don't feel a difference in movies between the Yammy & the KenWood & i think this is impossible,not only i mentioned stereo,& that's why i was thinking that the problem is in me,coz how a company like KenWood that known for its bad processor & not high quality recivers,match a well known company in surround sounds like yamaha???
     
  4. Dfour

    Dfour
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    I am suprised a little unhappy you feel this way. I would ask you to preserve witht hte Yamaah as IMHO it does take a few days use to get the best out of it as i feel new receivers like speakers need to be run in.
    If i remember rightly the 650 has an auto setup mode. If its like my 1400 it has different ways of equelisation. Eg flat, trebble, mid, bass and front. If it has the front setting us that as I found it made loads of difference to the sound and then do the auto setup again.

    I have found fitting the presence speakers can make a difference in the sound from movies by expanding the sound field.
     
  5. ktng

    ktng
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    CosmicOne

    I know you have made references to reviews in your comments, but you have also made a number of posts along the lines 'I have the RXV650 and it sounds awesome in stereo with Pure Direct Mode' and hence my confusion at your comments in this thread.

    I would agree with Dfour's comments, although from what I understand you have now had the receiver for at least a few weeks and it should therefore have now run in.
     
  6. CosmicOne

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    Dfour,
    i always like ur advice man u r really a great help to all the guys here.

    anyway i know what are u talking about,but my 650 doesn't have eq modes in it's auto setup like ur 1400,i only have manual eq for the center which i doesn't need coz my center matches the front speakers.

    about "burning in" like the speakers how much does it take to get the full performance of the Yammy unit??? my yamaha is only 1 month old & my KenWood is 4years old.

    BTW:i tried using the Auto setup & trying setting it manualy & found the auto setup to be better sounding while it put my crossover@120HZ & my fronts@small but i found it sounds better than my settings in which i put the Cross@80HZ & fronts@large.

    about the presence speaker,i read from lots of people the same feeling u get when using them but i don't know how i don't get this feeling???also i don't know how i don't notice any difference between DSP modes & between DD5.1 & DTS5.1???

    also is it normal that the DTS is quiter than the DD???
     
  7. CosmicOne

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    ktng

    dude YES i said that & that's true the reciver doesn't sound bad atall it's sound great great & spacious even when listining to MP3's but when i reconnect my KenWood i found it producing the same sound.

    Do u guys think my Speakers are limiting me???But i really don't think that coz the Diamond8.4's are really good speakers.
    OR do u think my source is the limit??i tired my Sony DVD with an expensive coaxial cable from RadioShack (there gold series) also everyday use am using an optical output from my soundstorm soundcard found on N-Force2 motherboard,also i think using the optical output makes the no effect from the quality of the soundcard coz it only bypass bitstream & let the amp do the rest.

    Does a better optical cable will differ in quality??
     
  8. Dfour

    Dfour
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    To get a better optical cable will cost you loads £60+ and wouldnt be worth it. Im afraid I know nohting about your sony dvd player so cant comment. Cheap dvd players can make terrible cdp's. If you listen to a lot of music it might be worth getting a dedicated cdp or a better, more musical dvd player. The other option is to use a decent analogue cabel fromt eh dvd to the amp and use the dvd's DAC's but I dont know how much difference it would make or if it would be worse. See if you can borrow a cable from a friend.

    I just had a read of the 650 manual and it doesnt have the equalisation i was talking about in my previous post :(

    You have never mentioned what subwoofer your using . I have seen meixed reviews for your speakers but have never heard them in action so again i realy cant help.

    I dont think you want huge difference in the dsp modes with movies or you would be distracted by the dsp sound and not really hearing hte movie. Some people hate DSP modes anyway and never use them so you have to play and see if they are for you. Again cheap speaker cable can hold the sound back as well though many would disagree with me there as well :D If you have had your amp a month its gonna be 'burned in' I didnt realise you had had it so long.

    Im sorry i can be more helpful at the moment:(
     
  9. CosmicOne

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    About the DVD player & it's CD capabilities forget about it for a moment coz i also mentioned that the movie sounds are also the same & that's what bothers me most coz Yamaha are known for there great movies sound which may be better than anyother amp.i will try the Analogue as u mentioned but do u think the dacs on the sony dvd player will be better than the one's on the Reciver.

    am using two subwoofers:
    1-RCA 100W 10" powered subwoofer (CrossOver freq@60HZ)
    2-Optimus 12" 100W (powered by the KenWood amp) & go from the 120HZ to below.
     
  10. Dfour

    Dfour
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    OK ive jsut read some reviews of your dvd player and theyare 95% positive. As you have tried it in another room as well it cant be that rooms setup. Have you got the speakers bi-wired or even just removed the brass connectors on the speakers and replaced it with the same spekaer cable as your using? This could make a difference. I would also suggest you check the speaker distances that the yamaha has set up as its not always right and checked the speaker levels with a SPL?

    |Have never heard of either subs so cant help. How have you got them set up if you have the Kenwood in the link?
     
  11. CosmicOne

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    Dfour
    i mesured the speaker distances by myself to recheck on the Auto setup & it was right,also i have SPL meter & i also rechecked on that,
    about the speakers am biwiring it to AB speakers on the amp,with the LF to A & HF to B.

    when i was comparing the two in movies i just used the Powered RCA sub & set it's cross@120HZ but when i use my Yammy only i connect the KenWood to the other (passive) subwoofer & am using Y connector on the back of my yamaha to get two outputs from the one output on the back of the yammy so i connect one to the powered sub & the other to the kenwood powering the passive sub.

    BTW:i just did what u where saying & tired my DVD in analogue & in Digital using the same cable that came with the DVD player & i connect them all at time and while listining to a track i was switching back & forth from analogue input to digital input & also THERE WAS NO DIFFERNENCE at all,does that mean the DACS on the player is as good as the one's on the Yammy??????

    Thanx Dfour for all ur time that am wasting,i really appreciate it my friend.
     
  12. CosmicOne

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    Could the problem be that am not listening with the refrence volume levels???i always listen under the refrence 80db or 75db???
     
  13. TheeNoMaD

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    I found that an av receiver prefers a certain volume level, i dont particularly know what you mean when you say reference level. However mine prefers -30db to -20db. though at lower volumes try a midnight listening mode if there is one?
     
  14. Knightshade

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    I know I'm butting in here but having read through the thread the main common factor here is the DVD player. You say the 2 amps sound the same? Well that would make sense to me if your using the same DVD player. After all the amp can only work with what it's sent. I'm not overly surprised that you don't hear a difference when using the AV Amps DAC's. They could be of similar quality?
    Certainly wouldn't bother changing optical cables I've failed to hear the difference between £10 and £100 optical cables (Maybe that's just me?)
    From what i've read the source would be where i'd look.
    HTH
     
  15. CosmicOne

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    TheeNoMaD

    by refrence level i mean to level that Dolby & DTS suggested that we listen to movies encoded with there formats at the volume level which is from 75db to 80db.

    Knightshade

    u may be right on this but i also used my SoundStorm soundcard as i mentioned & it sounds the same,& do u think that the old KenWood was getting the full performance from the Sony DVD & the sound card am using even that am only using digital out which only bypass the bit stream to the reciver??

    Also while using the same DVD player how couldn't i notice a difference between DolbyD & DTS while i read that BladeII is a very good representation to DTS????& does DTS really quiter than DD???
     
  16. CosmicOne

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    i found something now,i tried comparing the two amps again but at a high volume level (75db)
    i was playing Dido latest hit song "Life for rent" & while it's MP3 but with good quality@192kbs,i noticed the folowing:
    1-the KenWood have more in ur face vocals than the Yammy while the Yammy seems laid back a bit compared to it.

    2-the vocals on the yammy is softer & smoother than the KenWood also the KenWood with it's in ur face vocals that makes it's vocals a very little muddy comapred to the yammy

    3-at that volume level which is very very high i noticed in middle of the song that the Kenwood with it's vocals i mentioned before starts to get distorted but it was hardly noticed while the Yammy passes this part without being slightly strained as the KenWood.
     
  17. TheeNoMaD

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    Try a different song? I tend to find Yamaha's like loud powerfull notes more than gentle melodic things like dido, for instance spin Ace of Spades by Motorhead the timing ought to be better on the yammy and a whole lot more punchier. If you dont like that type of music then pick something you will that has a lot of pace and noise to it
     
  18. ktng

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    Try listening to some proper CD's rather than MP3, because 192kbps MP3 is not going to get the best out of your Yamaha.

    I can't comment on the Blade2 DD/DTS mix other than to say that the mix and/or sound level will vary from disc to disc. Normally the DTS mix is slightly louder than the DD mix and I believe that the general consensus is that DTS doesn't sound any better than DD. There maybe a few exceptions (like Saving Private Ryan is supposed to be superior in DTS)
     
  19. CosmicOne

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    i will try that dude.

    ktng
    u said that "Normally the DTS mix is slightly louder than the DD mix" so how the DTS track was quiter for me than the DD??
     
  20. Knightshade

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    Hi Cosmicone,
    Agree with ktng on this one. Try CD's instead. I'm not familiar with the DVD's in question so can't comment.
    It sounds like you've been able to notice the differences between the amps, though they may not be as ground breaking as you'd hoped but sometimes that happens. Perhaps you should retry the sound card at the higher volumes?
    I certainly wouldn't be testing with MP3 though.:)
     
  21. TheeNoMaD

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    No worries mate, however i am quite shocked that you havent noticed that many improvements between the old kenwood and the new yammy. My av amp is pants now and im looking to get a new denon im just hoping that i will notice the significant improvement in sound quality in both stereo and surround. I shoud do but still you never know. Though currently i have a unique situation in that mine sound sbetter in stereo than surround but i put that down to me having a better pair of fronts than rears.
     
  22. ktng

    ktng
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    CosmicOne

    I also said '"I can't comment on the Blade2 DD/DTS mix other than to say that the mix and/or sound level will vary from disc to disc."
     
  23. ktng

    ktng
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    Had another thought on your DTS/DD sound levels - is the sound level lower playing it back through both your Sony DVD player and via your soundcard?

    I've found that a lot of DVD's playback the DTS soundtrack at a lower level than the DD soundtrack on my PC, but I don't remember any of them being at a lower level when I play them back via my DVD player/AV receiver.
     
  24. Dfour

    Dfour
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    I will try out my blade 2 dvd in DD and DTS later and see if it is the same on my kit.
     
  25. CosmicOne

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    Knightshade
    u are right man,i really was expecting a night & Day difference between both amps,espicially that the kenWood was entry level & considered very basic & very cheap reciver.

    TheeNoMaD
    What reciver do u have now dude??& why u are saying that "i am quite shocked that you havent noticed that many improvements "????do u experiance any KenWood amp & compared it a Yammy???

    ktng
    No dude i only tried the movie on the DVD coz i don't have a DVD rom on my PC.

    Dfour
    That would be great dude,also tell me if u notice a difference in quality or in sound between them both!!(not only on volume)

    Do u guys think by anyway that my yamaha reciver could be damaged????
     
  26. reservoir51

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    Cosmic,

    I'm sorry you feel the way you do about your Yammy, as previously you were extremely enthusiastic about it. I'll try to chip in and see if I can be of any assistance in resolving this issue (if it can be resolved!).

    Do you have a dedicated CD player? To get the best possible outcome from your amp for playing CDs, you may need a CD player as opposed to a DVD player. I know for a fact that using my mid-range Pioneer DVD player for CDs(£400 +), the differences between my Yammy and my previous stereo amp (Cambridge Azur 640A) were only very slight, whereas using a dedicated CD player (Marantz CD5400, which is only entry-level when it comes to dedicated CD players) the differences between the two amps were very marked and conspicuous. I suppose a crude analogy is this - suppose you've bought a brand-new 43-inch plasma TV, and you're comparing it to a 14-inch portable TV, by watching a poor quality VHS tape on a cheap VCR. I doubt that you'd be able to notice any difference in image quality between the small TV and your plasma screen.

    From personal experience, as far as CDs are concerned, sending analogue signals to the amp (as opposed to digital, via optical cable) reproduces better sound - perhaps because bypassing the amp's DAC circuitry better preserves hi-fidelity?

    As for multi-channel playback, I'm not sure why you're getting the results you're obviously getting, because I've tried different multi-channel amps (Pioneer, Sony, Cambridge Audio, etc.) in comparison with the Yammy and in each instance (whether DD, DTS, DPL2, etc.) the Yammy had superior results. The only issue I can think of is your listening volume : 75 to 80dB.
    Most amplifiers measure relative dB as opposed to 'true dB' - ie. where 0 dB is the maximum volume amplified by the amp and hence average listening volumes of between -30 to -20 dBs for the average listener. With auto-setup, the volume level is automatically set to relative dB. Perhaps if you try listening at -30 to -20 relative dBs then you're in a better position to make a judgement. Although I know how loud 75 dBs is (70 dBs = normal highway traffic;80 decibel = loud electric shaver) I have no idea how it relates to the Yammy in terms of referencing. Read here for further info on relative dBs : http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=318935. The relevance of this is that if volumes are either too loud or too soft, then this might have a negative impact on your system.

    Regards,
    reservoir51
     
  27. ewin

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    I had a kenwood krf5030d and enjoyed it, as it was my first av amp that i could really listen to dolby 5.1.
    After that i wanted dts as i had just got the queen greatest hits on dvd.So i changed to a pioneer 510d which had more power in driving my speakers ,but it was very light on bass and did not enjoy the sound it made. So after a while i changed to a yamaha htr5630 which i know it is still buget but the sound quality was so much better.
    If there is one thing i have noted is that the yamaha has lots of power for a small unit .The overall surround sound is great and have nothing to moan about it.The only three dsp i use is 5ch stereo,general,enhanced.
    I think it comes down to what you like.Is it sound quality or a great surround effect.
    Some people like sony`s ,some like pioneer`s ,me it will be yamha for i long time.I have to say that the kenwood was a good bit of kit in it`s time and to get up running in the 5.1 world of home cinema.
     
  28. PjPip

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    Lets not forget that, that range of Kenwood amps got some excellent reviews in HC mags. I'm still using a KRF-V5050D and only now looking to change so that I can have DPL II and component video switching - the sound remains excellent.
     
  29. CosmicOne

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    reservoir51

    when i say 70 or 80db i meant the reading's i get by the SPL & that's many guys here & on other forums said it's the refrence level for Dolby & DTS not for Yamaha,also i normal listing on my yammy is from -25 to -15 when the max volume is +10.

    ewin

    so dude u really hear improvments in both stereo & surround or surround only??& can u please tell me the kind of improvments that u really feel.

    PjPip

    i don't find much reviews on that range but now i know they are really good,but i doen't one bit think that my entry level old kenwood can come close to a mid-level Yamaha reciver espicially on surrounds.
    Maybe that the cyrus logic chip on the KenWood is so good in DolbyDigital???
     
  30. PjPip

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    I bought mine mostly on the recommendations of THIS REVIEW. However, I'm keen to hear of your experience as I'm currently looking at the Yamaha 550 :)
     

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