I 'm done with upscalng, I just want a quality DVD player

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Dr Force, Jan 22, 2008.

  1. Dr Force

    Dr Force
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    Guys

    I have been doing a bit of research about upscaling and it seems that as long as your PJ/TV has a good video processor then its best left alone.

    So, I am looking for a progressive scan DVD player that plays a mighty fine 480/576p picture which I will put through my PJ allowing it to upscale the picture as recommended.

    My budget is between £250 and £500.

    My PJ is most likely going to be the Mitsubishi HC6000, which has an excellent processor.

    Can anybody recommend a player that strongly fits the bill, not bothered about manufacturer.

    Thanks

    Doc
     
  2. TommyVecetti

    TommyVecetti
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    Try ebay for some older models. I doubt you'll find anything new in that high price range that isn't HDMI and upscales. You don't have to use the upscaling remember. However if you're willing to pay £500 for a player you could buy something like the Denon 2930, which is not to be sniffed at.
     
  3. gblades

    gblades
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    You dont have to avoid upscaling players as you can just set the HDMI output to 576p and let the TV do it.
    I have a Denon 1940 which is very good. On poor quality DVDs (the start of order of the phoenix for example) where you can really see the quality loss the upscaler in the DVD player does a much better job than my Sony 40V3000 TV.
     
  4. Ron240

    Ron240
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    Exactly.
    As the above 2 posters have already said - just because a player is capable of upscaling, doesnt mean you need to use it.

    There are plenty of good quality new players on the market....and in your price range, they can all upscale.
    For a second hand, very high quality, non upscaling player, you should look at Arcam.

    Take your pick. :)
     
  5. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    I still use a Sony NS900V and it is fantastic on my TV. Even after 5 years or so, it is still as good as a modern player.

    There is one at just £3 and ending in 3 hours on ebay.
     
  6. Dr Force

    Dr Force
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    Ok thanks guys

    Its a bit of a shame that you are infact paying for the processor and yet dont need it:confused:

    I would of thought that the extra £100 or so could have gone into better components on a player that just does progressive scan, but it appears that all new players are upscaling.

    I am not convinced that my Tosh EP30 will do a very good job on a 92" diagonal screen for SD stuff.I beleive that a good quality SD machine will give me far better results as the exspense is 100% spent on the SD capabilities of that player whereas the Tosh has questionable build quality and therefore componenets.

    Denon and Arcam seem to be the two that stand out but Pioneers new range also looks nice...................mmmm, its always a dificult one uying new kit:rolleyes:
     
  7. Knox

    Knox
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    Modern manufacturing doesn't work like that !

    It would cost the manufacturer more to take it out, economies of scale etc

    Get an Oppo or Pioneer and just leave it turned of, you're not losing anything by not using it
    I have all sorts of abilities in my gear that I never use !
     
  8. imjay

    imjay
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    All i have is personal experience and image thrown by our front projector is significantly better with up conversion via HDMI link to the dvd player - significantly.

    Same is true with the 56in RP TV - it does a very good job of up converting standard def dvds but there is a visible difference in quality when HDMI is used for player up conversion.

    Now I would agree that there would be no visible difference with a 25 in analog tv but if set is HD capable standard def will look better if its' player has good up conversion processor.
     
  9. Fox McCloud

    Fox McCloud
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    Well why dont you use that £250-500 and get an XE1 .. its got the best processor, and its hte bees kness. And if you want to play divx files, a DV600 or an Oppo...
     
  10. craigd

    craigd
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    This is not necessarily true my DV137 upscaler does not do a better job than my PDP427XD.
     
  11. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    If you use HDMI then the same hold true for deinterlacing. From what I have read the HC6000 does exemplary deinterlacing (Reon processor?). And you may be well off with a rock bottom priced player with less impressive processing but that can output 480i/576i over HDMI (e.g. a Pioneer DV-400V is one to try but there are many others, like e.g. my Toshiba E1 HD DVD player).

    S.
     
  12. proux

    proux
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    :smashin:
     
  13. McFaber

    McFaber
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    Just make sure the DVD player has a good de-interlacer....;)....and don't worry about the rest.
    I personally think the upscaling side of DVD players is a bit of con and I certainly think upscaled(720/1080) SD is actually worse quality than componant....Upscale= picture degradation:thumbsdow

    Thats why I've purchased one of last fuji's...576 progressive for SD from now on...:cool:
     
  14. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    Well that is the thing, with HDMI you do not need a good de-interlacer in a DVD player if you already have one in your display device. So I'd say get a projector or TV with great processing and don't worry about the rest. Then it will display any source you throw at it well. Plus you are no longer hampered by the limitations of HDMI with regards to the number of display formats and display frequencies.

    S.

    If you own a Fujitsu plasma, have you ever tried to connect at 576i by the way?
     
  15. Dr Force

    Dr Force
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    This seems to be the common answer and kind of begs the question.......why have upscaling players at all??? if it cannot be done over analogue and you need HDMI then you need a display device that excepts HDMI, which in most cases is a HD ready TV.

    So most people have a TV that has its own processing, some better than others, but the upscaling, deinterlacing, upscaling is not good for the final picture.The best result therefore would be to have TV's that allow you to disable the inbuilt processor and let the player perform its duties.

    Unfortunately (I beleive) you cant do that so you set your upscaling player to not upscale and lett your display do it:confused:

    This upscaling seems a tad pointless to me.
     
  16. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    And that is a good question. Personally, I do not really see the point of an upscaling DVD player with great processing, unless you wish to compensate for a lack thereof in your set. To me it makes more sense to instead invest in a TV (or projector) with top-notch processing and buy a player (SD or HD) that only reads what is on the disc and throws it straight over the wire to your TV. The TV should then be able to handle this raw signal and further process it.

    In the case of video signals (excluding computer games) these would be 480i60 and 576i50 for SD, 1080i50, 1080i60 and 1080p24 for HD (the latter correctly displayed at a multiple of 23.976 Hz) (and 720p50 for some HD broadcasters and 1080p60 for 1080p30 content plus 720p60 for possible future HD content). 1080p24 is not strictly necessary as the signal can be contained in 1080i60 as well, the TV would have to be able to extract 1080p24 from it.

    An alternative (or if you need even better) would be to have an external scaler with the FULL HD TV set to 1:1 pixelmapping at 1080p. The scaler should be performing the necessary overscan. The TV should then be able to handle 1080p50, 1080p60 and 1080p24 (unfortunately 1080p25 is currently not common). If the TV can do that well than it will not need elaborate processing.

    Unless you use 1:1 pixelmapping, the TV by definition will have to scale the input resolution to the screen resolution (+ overscan). There is no way to switch that off. So if you do external upscaling (either in an external scaler or a scaling DVD player) 1:1 pixelmapping should be used, but these devices should then also be able to perform overscan if necessary. Anything else will result in double scaling.

    To put all that processing into a DVD player essentially does not make much sense to me, because what are you going to do with all the rest of your sources? It used to be an advantage when there were only component connections, since then de-interlacing could be performed before the conversion to analogue. But with the advent of HDMI that advantage has gone since the signal no longer needs an intermediate conversion to analogue and back.

    S.

    PS. TV's known to have good processing are Pioneer and Fujitsu plasmas. This is perhaps the most important feature, that does not appear in the spec sheet however, nor in the buyer's priority list usually.
     
  17. McFaber

    McFaber
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    It has not arrived yet...:(
    I've been advised by a professional installer to set-up my dvd player using SD progressive...something to with the cadence detection on the Fuji's not being totally reliable at detecting video and film source material.
     
  18. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    If that is the case, then that would be a good reason naturally. I would compare it to 576i anyway at some stage, you never know..
     
  19. henryv

    henryv
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    How do we know whether our TV is a good processor or not?
    My TV is a Panasonic TH-37PV500B.


    Henry.:):):):



    PS. TV's known to have good processing are Pioneer and Fujitsu plasmas. This is perhaps the most important feature, that does not appear in the spec sheet however, nor in the buyer's priority list usually.[/QUOTE]
     
  20. Dr Force

    Dr Force
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    [/QUOTE]

    Thats a good point.

    All the DVD players advertise the quality of thier chips but nobody does on the TV's!

    They really should start to offer a disabling device in panels as chips in new players are getting better all the time and thus its easy to update your player every 2-3 years, but not many will replace thier TV sets at that rate, could be a good selling point.

    Its also interesting to think how good these inbuilt processors will get in the next 5 years or so, may get close to HD:cool:
     
  21. FunkyMonkey

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    I'd be surprised if any display upscales better than a PS3. :cool:
     
  22. Dr Force

    Dr Force
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    Probably not, but the point is you are not getting the best out of the PS3 scaler if the display then scales it again.Alot of the time if you set the output to 576p and then let the display upscale then you get a better picture with less artifacts.

    The mind boggles;)
     
  23. henryv

    henryv
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    Why 576p instead of 576i?
    I have a 1024 x 720 pixels - Panasonic. TH-37PV500B.
    I have an oppo DV-980H connected by HDMI cable.

    Henry.:):):)
     
  24. Ron240

    Ron240
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    Because it makes sense to input a Progressive Scan signal, into a Progressive Scan display.
     
  25. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    Hello Ron240, this is not correct.. Eventually you need a progressive signal to drive a progressive display but you do not need to input it. This signal can either be created in your player (select 576p) or in your TV (select 576i). Try both to see which one does a better job (preferably using a test disk with deliberately badly encoded information).

    S.
     
  26. Ron240

    Ron240
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    Yes, i realise this.
    All i meant was - if it is a Progressive signal going in, then there is no need to convert it, so the end result should(in theory)be better.
    At least this is my understanding anyway. :)
     
  27. bradavon78

    bradavon78
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    All Upscaling DVD Players can also send an non-upscaled image. So why not get an Upscaling one and compare it for yourself?
     
  28. Scrutinizer

    Scrutinizer
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    Yes, but the decoder chip inside your DVD player decodes an interlaced 576i signal off your DVD. This signal then has to be de-interlaced to turn it into a progressive signal. This can be done either by the de-interlacer in your player or by the one in your TV. Same thing. The question is, which de-interlacer does a better job?

    S.
     
  29. McFaber

    McFaber
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    Ron, I'm afraid this is not always the case....It all depends if the Tv's de-interlacer is better than the player...;)
     
  30. Ron240

    Ron240
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    Yes, of course, point taken. :)
    Which brings us back to square one then.
    As you say though, only your own eyes can answer that.....but in some cases even they cant. :D
     

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