I guess it's time for a bass upgrade

John24ssj

Active Member
I suppose, for me with no measuring equipment (well, except Spectroid 🤣) I could (before Audyssey) with 80Hz crossover that is the point where the mains and subs would be both together and try an 80Hz test tone. Assume, using my Dobby ears, it will sound louder when phase on sub is closer to mains.
Well the difference was really audible, so even with ears you tell if things are geting better, but the process is much much longer that way.


John wow glad you have some nice bass at last. It’s all to do with integration and time aligning.
I have small driver MA apex and they sound awesome as centre channel so your q acoustics should be fine. Try fine tuning with slightly changing centre channel distance to see if they are getting better integrated with the subs
Thank you :D This has been a long time coming.

ALSO the drivers in Apex A40 are much larger than QA3090C. 2x140mm vs 2x100mm. Also Apex A40 are on a different class to 3090C :D
 

Conrad

Moderator
That's the bit I don't understand fully. Doesn't Audyssey align the sub or subs to be in phase with the other speakers? (I'd assume the LCR).
That's the thing, this isn't as simple as it sounds.

For a start, where do you want to align the phase, at what frequency? The phase degrees, angle, and slope will change from speaker to speaker give its components, construction, and place in the room. So you can align phase between two speaker (or speaker and sub) at a particular frequency, but that might not be the best approach overall.

Plus the phases of LCR will be different at the MLP (and the other measured positions) so which one should Audyssey pick? My guess is that it averages the measured responses and then aligns the phase or phase angle at the crossover for one speaker (probably C). You can't affect the L and R as that'll ruin the time alignment between C and L/R.

Something like Dirac Bass Control has that function as it can use an all pass filter to change the phase without affecting the delay, which I don't fully understand, but apparently works very well. Audyssey has a limited algorithm that it applies universally.

Something like MSO and, more manually, REW have the ability to look across a frequency range and choose an alignment that gives the least delta error for multiple positions and multiple speakers.

It's not hard to "beat" most room correction algorithms with a bit of tweaking in REW, and that goes for ARC, Dirac, Room Perfect, Trinnov, although the margin for improvement for some is a lot more than others. There's no one best rule in all cases.
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
Glad you got a better result with your latest tweets, it's never ending imo but that can be half the fun. The search is on for a new centre channel speaker then? I had a similar issue when I got hold of some Tannoy XT-8F 's, the matching tannoy centre only had 4" drivers,the 8F's have 8" drivers...so I looked at frequency responses and sensitivity of other manufacturers centers, ended up with a Arendal 1723 c as it was close enough on my 2 criteria. It worked for me, it may work for you also!
 

John24ssj

Active Member
That's the thing, this isn't as simple as it sounds.

For a start, where do you want to align the phase, at what frequency? The phase degrees, angle, and slope will change from speaker to speaker give its components, construction, and place in the room. So you can align phase between two speaker (or speaker and sub) at a particular frequency, but that might not be the best approach overall.

Plus the phases of LCR will be different at the MLP (and the other measured positions) so which one should Audyssey pick? My guess is that it averages the measured responses and then aligns the phase or phase angle at the crossover for one speaker (probably C). You can't affect the L and R as that'll ruin the time alignment between C and L/R.

Something like Dirac Bass Control has that function as it can use an all pass filter to change the phase without affecting the delay, which I don't fully understand, but apparently works very well. Audyssey has a limited algorithm that it applies universally.

Something like MSO and, more manually, REW have the ability to look across a frequency range and choose an alignment that gives the least delta error for multiple positions and multiple speakers.

It's not hard to "beat" most room correction algorithms with a bit of tweaking in REW, and that goes for ARC, Dirac, Room Perfect, Trinnov, although the margin for improvement for some is a lot more than others. There's no one best rule in all cases.
That's a fair point, Audyssey decided that best crossovers for mains was 40Hz and 60Hz for center channel so maybe phase was just fine there. But after many many rew measurements it's all good now. I swear I can hear the sweep tone when I cost my eyes :D


Glad you got a better result with your latest tweets, it's never ending imo but that can be half the fun. The search is on for a new centre channel speaker then? I had a similar issue when I got hold of some Tannoy XT-8F 's, the matching tannoy centre only had 4" drivers,the 8F's have 8" drivers...so I looked at frequency responses and sensitivity of other manufacturers centers, ended up with a Arendal 1723 c as it was close enough on my 2 criteria. It worked for me, it may work for you also!
Sadly I got really limited space 16.5cm :( looking at center channels that got 2x6.5 drives none of them would fit. The only things that would fit would be arendal 1961 center channel but it only has 2x5.5" drivers
 

scoobysmiff

Active Member
That's a fair point, Audyssey decided that best crossovers for mains was 40Hz and 60Hz for center channel so maybe phase was just fine there. But after many many rew measurements it's all good now. I swear I can hear the sweep tone when I cost my eyes :D



Sadly I got really limited space 16.5cm :( looking at center channels that got 2x6.5 drives none of them would fit. The only things that would fit would be arendal 1961 center channel but it only has 2x5.5" drivers
Do you need 2 x 6" drivers though? I also have an XTZ 99.25c, a single 6" driver with a ribbon tweeter, it's not the last word in clarity but it's pretty good tbh. The 1961 center with its wide spread waveguide may be a better option?
 

John24ssj

Active Member
Do you need 2 x 6" drivers though? I also have an XTZ 99.25c, a single 6" driver with a ribbon tweeter, it's not the last word in clarity but it's pretty good tbh. The 1961 center with its wide spread waveguide may be a better option?

Well monoprice THX365C would be my choice as it's only £370 and an absolute monster of a center channel however being a monster it's way too tall at 24cm! The Arendal 1961 would cost £450 and be not as good as the 365C.
I could move the TV higher to accommodate it but I feel like I would not be enjoying the picture anymore as I feel TV is to hight as it now since our sofa is quite low and at eye level we are almost looking at the bottom of the screen :/
 

sm1ggsy

Active Member
That's a fair point, Audyssey decided that best crossovers for mains was 40Hz and 60Hz for center channel so maybe phase was just fine there.
just to clarify your receiver avr sets the crossovers not audyssey
 

John24ssj

Active Member
just to clarify your receiver avr sets the crossovers not audyssey
Not quite sure what you mean?
After I ran Audyssey it picked distances, speaker type and crossovers
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Silly idea, small subwoofer for centre channel? Would the MiniDSP be able to manage that and still keep your PB3000s a discrete channel each?
 

John24ssj

Active Member
Silly idea, small subwoofer for centre channel? Would the MiniDSP be able to manage that and still keep your PB3000s a discrete channel each?
I think it's missing gravitas in localised frequencies >120Hz, I don't think a small sub would help
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
True. And to best control it, you'd need pre outs on your AVR!

If you had the preouts and an external power amp, I wonder if two of the same centres would achieve that gravitas? :)
 

John24ssj

Active Member
True. And to best control it, you'd need pre outs on your AVR!

If you had the preouts and an external power amp, I wonder if two of the same centres would achieve that gravitas? :)
Yeah that's the thing not having pre outs is quite bad :( geting a simple class D amp could easily drive few speakers if needed.
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
Yeah that's the thing not having pre outs is quite bad :( geting a simple class D amp could easily drive few speakers if needed.

Move the Denon to a second system (consoles/PC/study) maybe put together a bedroom system, and get a new avr with pre outs or a av pre.
 

jonjames

Active Member
I had the 3090c and whilst I was impressed initially I soon felt it wasn’t great with dialogue at higher volumes. Replaced it with the MA silver c150 and I went from 😕 to 😮. It is super clear and detailed. Once I get a new AVR it should be even better 🤪
 

rccarguy2

Well-known Member
I had the 3090c and whilst I was impressed initially I soon felt it wasn’t great with dialogue at higher volumes. Replaced it with the MA silver c150 and I went from 😕 to 😮. It is super clear and detailed. Once I get a new AVR it should be even better 🤪

Ma 350 would be even bigger increase with four drivers, I prefer four driver over MTM
 

John24ssj

Active Member
Well @Gasp3621 recommended the Klipsch RP404C that would fit my gap, or the RP504C I'm just not too keen on their looks
 

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